So, in another thread, someone brought up Admiral Motti, who gives all ships X hull strength based on size. The question was posed: if he dies, do those ships loose X hull strength or does it persist? Other effects are more clear, like Dodonna, because separate checks are made throughout the game. But if something changes the initial conditions of a ship or squadron as a one time thing, does it go away if the ship that bestowed that ability is not on the board?

Also, regarding hyperspace assault. If I have, say, Dodonna chilling in hyperspace, can I still benefit from his effects? What about Motti?

What I've come up with so far:

pg 5 RR, Effect use and timing: When a card is discarded or flipped face down, it's effect is no longer active in the game.

pg 5 RR, Destroyed ships and squadrons: . . . All ship and upgrade cards belonging to destroyed ships are inactive.

So, based on that, I would say effects in hyperspace apply, since those ship/upgrade cards are face up and nothing is telling me I can't use them. However, regarding destroyed ships, Motti and cards like him are still unclear to me. Yeah, his ability is no longer in effect, but is his ability persistent or a one time thing that resolves at the beginning of the game?

Thoughts?

That was me.

I have a hard time saying what will happen.

But I hope it's the intuitive answer that once Motti is gone so is the extra Hull. Purely for cinematic possibility.

Get every enemy ship down to Motti hull only. Then kill Motti.

So much win in that mental image.

Ships in 'hyperspace' are still active. On a similar note, you change the activation sliders of squadrons that are waiting off the board.

Re: Motti. I've not seen the card, but guess it depends on when the hull points are added. Is it a constant buff, or a one-time bonus applied at the start of the game? The wording will be key in explaining how it works.

Ships in 'hyperspace' are still active. On a similar note, you change the activation sliders of squadrons that are waiting off the board.

Re: Motti. I've not seen the card, but guess it depends on when the hull points are added. Is it a constant buff, or a one-time bonus applied at the start of the game? The wording will be key in explaining how it works.

As it stands now (it may change at release) it reads

"The hull value of each friendly ship is increased according to it's size class:

Small ship: 1

Medium ship: 2

Large ship: 3"

Ships in 'hyperspace' are still active. On a similar note, you change the activation sliders of squadrons that are waiting off the board.

Re: Motti. I've not seen the card, but guess it depends on when the hull points are added. Is it a constant buff, or a one-time bonus applied at the start of the game? The wording will be key in explaining how it works.

As it stands now (it may change at release) it reads

"The hull value of each friendly ship is increased according to it's size class:

Small ship: 1

Medium ship: 2

Large ship: 3"

It depends on if hull values can be lowered. There's no clear wording(as is, could change on release) Every other game effect that increases a value isn't permanent. But not of them change a value on the card.

IMO if he is gone, all ships lose the bonus hull. I figure that it is his presence that make everybody on the ships fight a little longer and work a little harder to make the ship last a little longer before evacuating the ship. If he is gone, crews lose that bolstering energy and flee earlier.

Thanks for posting the card text willismaximus. I see the problem now. RAW I'd say the extra hull goes if the commander is destroyed. However, it does not really make sense, thematically, to allow the scenario Aminar describes.

Thanks for posting the card text willismaximus. I see the problem now. RAW I'd say the extra hull goes if the commander is destroyed. However, it does not really make sense, thematically, to allow the scenario Aminar describes.

Thematically Wildhorn offers one of very many reasonable explanations as to how he may cause these extra hull points as well as why they are leaving with him ...

i agree with Wildhorn, as the opposing player you know what upgrades are present on each ship and you might be gunning to destroy a certain one to rid the player of the advantage of that upgrade card. unless the card specifically said "this affect persists even after the ship is destroyed" or similar, which i haven't seen a card or rule apply to that yet.

i agree with Wildhorn, as the opposing player you know what upgrades are present on each ship and you might be gunning to destroy a certain one to rid the player of the advantage of that upgrade card. unless the card specifically said "this affect persists even after the ship is destroyed" or similar, which i haven't seen a card or rule apply to that yet.

Or if it said "At the start of game" or "before deployment" I would read it as a permanent buff. As-is it sounds like a ongoing effect.

I'd say Motti's HP boost is lost to all ships if he dies, based on the following:

Commanders, RRG page 3: "A commander is a special type of upgrade card ..."

Destroyed Ships, RRG page 5: "All ship and upgrade cards belonging to the destroyed ships are inactive"

Given that the essentially 'active' effect of Motti's card being in play is rendered inactive if his ships gets blown up, then it defaults to the normal rule of:

Destroyed Ships, RRG Page 5: "A ship is destroyed when it has damage cards equaling or exceeding it's hull value" and "When a ship is destroyed, remove it from the play area"

So basically, with Motti gone, his card effect is rendered inactive, triggering the *when* of having damage cards matching or exceeding it's hull value, and when that happens, the ship is removed from the play area. Please note that it doesn't say when a damage card is applied, but just when the number of damage cards match or exceed.

So by the rules, as written, the moment Motti dies, so do all ships who's damage cards exceed their base hull value. Chain reaction. Fun times

I'd say Motti's HP boost is lost to all ships if he dies, based on the following:

Commanders, RRG page 3: "A commander is a special type of upgrade card ..."

Destroyed Ships, RRG page 5: "All ship and upgrade cards belonging to the destroyed ships are inactive"

Given that the essentially 'active' effect of Motti's card being in play is rendered inactive if his ships gets blown up, then it defaults to the normal rule of:

Destroyed Ships, RRG Page 5: "A ship is destroyed when it has damage cards equaling or exceeding it's hull value" and "When a ship is destroyed, remove it from the play area"

So basically, with Motti gone, his card effect is rendered inactive, triggering the *when* of having damage cards matching or exceeding it's hull value, and when that happens, the ship is removed from the play area. Please note that it doesn't say when a damage card is applied, but just when the number of damage cards match or exceed.

So by the rules, as written, the moment Motti dies, so do all ships who's damage cards exceed their base hull value. Chain reaction. Fun times

The question becomes, can hull values drop?

Nothing in the rules says they can or can't.

But I agree with your explanation. I just also think it'll lead to some silly(but amazing) visuals.

Well, you can always 'roleplay' it by saying that Motti's death caused a route and several badly damaged imperial ships opted to run away rather than fight.

Please remember that the spoiled text of Motti, may not be his actual text when released. He could be worded in a way that addresses, or removes the need to address, this particular question.

Please remember that the spoiled text of Motti, may not be his actual text when released. He could be worded in a way that addresses, or removes the need to address, this particular question.

And I really hope that's the case. As-written on the spoiled card, I could go either way on the rules.

I hope so too.

But given this is the first time this appears to have been discussed I doubt they had time to make the change.

Please remember that the spoiled text of Motti, may not be his actual text when released. He could be worded in a way that addresses, or removes the need to address, this particular question.

And I really hope that's the case. As-written on the spoiled card, I could go either way on the rules.

I don't think that is a valid viewpoint to take. I think as people have qouted the rules are fairly clear that upgrades on destroyed ships are inactive. With his current wording Motti wouldn't grant the hull points in death.

I hope so too.

But given this is the first time this appears to have been discussed I doubt they had time to make the change.

You're assuming playtesters didn't have the same conversation during the playtest and/or the previewed cards were actually those most current iteration of that card.

It wouldn't be that odd for them to have posted an already outdated version of Motti because the change while communicated to those testing the game hadn't made it's way to the department that would be altering card text.

It wouldn't be the first time.

Please remember that the spoiled text of Motti, may not be his actual text when released. He could be worded in a way that addresses, or removes the need to address, this particular question.

And I really hope that's the case. As-written on the spoiled card, I could go either way on the rules.

I don't think that is a valid viewpoint to take. I think as people have qouted the rules are fairly clear that upgrades on destroyed ships are inactive. With his current wording Motti wouldn't grant the hull points in death.

1) Start of turn with Tarkin: each ship gains a Navigate token. Done.

2) Tarkin dies.

3) Remove all of the remaining Navigate tokens because he's now dead? No, because his effect already resolved and the tokens were already given. No take backsies.

1) Start of game with Motti: each ship's hull value is increased. Done.

2) Motti dies.

3) Remove all the hull values that were increased? Maybe no? His effect was already resolved and the hull values were increased. No take backsies?

I hope so too.

But given this is the first time this appears to have been discussed I doubt they had time to make the change.

You're assuming playtesters didn't have the same conversation during the playtest and/or the previewed cards were actually those most current iteration of that card.

It wouldn't be that odd for them to have posted an already outdated version of Motti because the change while communicated to those testing the game hadn't made it's way to the department that would be altering card text.

It wouldn't be the first time.

I'm not sure when wave 1 previews went up, but it should, in theory, be well after they stopped developing wave 1 and moved one.

Hence doubtful.

Please remember that the spoiled text of Motti, may not be his actual text when released. He could be worded in a way that addresses, or removes the need to address, this particular question.

And I really hope that's the case. As-written on the spoiled card, I could go either way on the rules.

I don't think that is a valid viewpoint to take. I think as people have qouted the rules are fairly clear that upgrades on destroyed ships are inactive. With his current wording Motti wouldn't grant the hull points in death.

1) Start of turn with Tarkin: each ship gains a Navigate token. Done.

2) Tarkin dies.

3) Remove all of the remaining Navigate tokens because he's now dead? No, because his effect already resolved and the tokens were already given. No take backsies.

1) Start of game with Motti: each ship's hull value is increased. Done.

2) Motti dies.

3) Remove all the hull values that were increased? Maybe no? His effect was already resolved and the hull values were increased. No take backsies?

Not exactly. The effect of the Tarkin ability is that each ship phase, ships are granted command tokens. The effect is the act of handing out new command tokens. Once Tarkin dies, the effect dies with him, and no new command tokens are handed out each ship phase.

Motti has an *ongoing* effect that raises the hull value of all ships in his fleet. Once he dies, that ongoing effect is also lost. Ergo, all ships revert to their base hull values. An example of another ongoing effect upgrade card would be Enhanced Armament. That card just states that your batteries on each side have one extra dice. It doesn't say "add a die to your die pool whenever you attack". It's a fixed value. When the ship blows up, that upgrade card is rendered inactive. The only difference here is that Motti's upgrade applies to all ships in the fleet rather than a single one.

Please remember that the spoiled text of Motti, may not be his actual text when released. He could be worded in a way that addresses, or removes the need to address, this particular question.

And I really hope that's the case. As-written on the spoiled card, I could go either way on the rules.

I don't think that is a valid viewpoint to take. I think as people have qouted the rules are fairly clear that upgrades on destroyed ships are inactive. With his current wording Motti wouldn't grant the hull points in death.

1) Start of turn with Tarkin: each ship gains a Navigate token. Done.

2) Tarkin dies.

3) Remove all of the remaining Navigate tokens because he's now dead? No, because his effect already resolved and the tokens were already given. No take backsies.

1) Start of game with Motti: each ship's hull value is increased. Done.

2) Motti dies.

3) Remove all the hull values that were increased? Maybe no? His effect was already resolved and the hull values were increased. No take backsies?

Not exactly. The effect of the Tarkin ability is that each ship phase, ships are granted command tokens. The effect is the act of handing out new command tokens. Once Tarkin dies, the effect dies with him, and no new command tokens are handed out each ship phase.

Motti has an *ongoing* effect that raises the hull value of all ships in his fleet. Once he dies, that ongoing effect is also lost. Ergo, all ships revert to their base hull values. An example of another ongoing effect upgrade card would be Enhanced Armament. That card just states that your batteries on each side have one extra dice. It doesn't say "add a die to your die pool whenever you attack". It's a fixed value. When the ship blows up, that upgrade card is rendered inactive. The only difference here is that Motti's upgrade applies to all ships in the fleet rather than a single one.

There's no other context clues to work off of. No upgrades that can last past a ship dying that would lower a value. No other rulings to work off of.

Right now it looks like an ongoing effect.

But it isn't necessarily as there isn't much in the way of prrof it isn't a single use that increases a stat.

There is no when to trigger it.

Basically, there is some ambiguity here. And learning the answer will tell us something about the game and commander effects.

There is, as with too many rules topics, invented/wishful ambiguity.

Honestly, I really don't think there is any ambiguity at all. Motti's effect is that all ships have increased hull value. We know that when the ship dies, his effect is rendered inoperative. It would be some crazy mojo rules lawyering to assume his effect would keep going after he dies. At that point, an imperial player can just drop Motti on the very weakest ship in the fleet because he'll assume hull values remain the same even if Motti dies in the 2nd round. That's not how commander cards work. There always needs to be a serious drawback to losing your fleet admiral.

There is not ambiguity. The rules are clear. You assume there is ambiguity because in your mind, having Motti means somehow the ships added something physical to their ship (Motti: I refuse to command this fleet until you add some plating to these ships! And I want you to add more plating to the bigger ones!). But if you consider the explanation I gave in this very topic , it all make sense that this commander act as per the rule all other commanders act.