I have thought about this before, but since my players didn`t mind, I didn`t bother either.

But then the guy who plays a mechanic in my game asked if the Contraption talent isn`t what his character does to begin with, and have done through all the 4 sessions we have played.

I looked at it and I kind of see his point. As a mechanic you should be able to improvise and do a little MacGyvering without having to depend on a talent.

I kind of agree that talents like that kind of tie you down if you see it like that. But I told him it was probably meant for when you usually shouldn`t be able to or the gm would say no.

What do you think? Can you think of other examples of unnecessary talents that should just be handled in the narrative as something a career or character type should be able to do?

Or how would you interpret those kinds of talents?

Another player, smuggler, asked me about Hidden Storage. I told him that sure, you can have hidden compartments even if you don`t have the talent, but as a talent it could be anywhere and I wouldn`t let adversaries be able to detect it. He seemed saticefied with this.

Contraption allows you to make something beneficial to the current situation, so I see it as after making plenty of things of putting so many thing together they learn the ability to improvise. Outside of a 'situation', construction with tools and prep, sure go for it however you deem best. So I don't see this an been invalid

On your other question though a talent I don't really like not because it's unnecessary I just don't like the way it's written is dodge, I just can't see how someone learns to roll or avoid attacks when that appears to be a natural thing to do, other than that nothing I've run into yet

Contraption allows you to make something beneficial to the current situation, so I see it as after making plenty of things of putting so many thing together they learn the ability to improvise. ...

Shouldn`t he always be able to improvise and make beneficial stuff, even without the talent? Isn`t that what the career and specialization are all about?

If I didn`t know about that talent and the tecnician player asked me "hey, can I improvise withe these simple tools and make this contraption to fix this thing?" I would most likely say yes and reward him for being creative.

It would feel really weird to say "nah, you need a talent to do that"...

Contraption allows you to make something beneficial to the current situation, so I see it as after making plenty of things of putting so many thing together they learn the ability to improvise. ...

Shouldn`t he always be able to improvise and make beneficial stuff, even without the talent? Isn`t that what the career and specialisation are all about?

Just because a player is a Tech doesn't mean they can put together high-tech equipment with whatever is around and I'd be really nervous about allowing my players to do that whenever they wanted. The ability puts a price and limit to the ability so it doesn't railroad the story with "I make a thing to do that." I'm not saying a Tech shouldn't be able to make stuff, but it should take a while and require preperation without the skill. You said it yourself, creating stuff is what the Tech specilization is all about and that's why this ability is represented as a Talent. Without it your Tech player just isn't good at improvising.

My father is a technician. He never invented anything in his life.

As an acft mech, I didn't use short cuts or create contraptions until I had a basic idea of what I was working on, as I became more experienced I started seeing better ways to deviate from the technical data. Hence the contraption talent being earned later.

BTW, no I always made sure everything was correct after I did what I did by the book, so don't worry you fliers out there. We acft mechs are good at what we do.

Contraption allows you to make something beneficial to the current situation, so I see it as after making plenty of things of putting so many thing together they learn the ability to improvise. ...

Shouldn`t he always be able to improvise and make beneficial stuff, even without the talent? Isn`t that what the career and specialisation are all about?

Just because a player is a Tech doesn't mean they can put together high-tech equipment with whatever is around and I'd be really nervous about allowing my players to do that whenever they wanted. The ability puts a price and limit to the ability so it doesn't railroad the story with "I make a thing to do that." I'm not saying a Tech shouldn't be able to make stuff, but it should take a while and require preperation without the skill. You said it yourself, creating stuff is what the Tech specilization is all about and that's why this ability is represented as a Talent. Without it your Tech player just isn't good at improvising.

I never thought of it as high-tech equipment, just something that would be beneficial to the situation, a simple contrapment. But if we are talking about hoverboards, jetpacks and thermal detonators, coms, datapads or even small and simple droids I am all on board why this would have to be a talent!

How do you see it? What are your examples of contraptions you would need a talent to improvise and would only be able to make once per session?

Technicians fix things. They don't necessarily invent things, or throw things together McGyver-style to create a solution for the problem of the day. Sure, they can do those things, but I would think they'd need some experience being a technician (and spending said experience on appropriate talents) in order to do this on a regular basis.

As always, in an emergency, or when they have plenty of time and parts to do it, the GM can have them use their technician skills to do whatever is required to advance the narrative. But being able to do these things at-will, I believe, would require the proper talent, purchased with XP, rather than being given to them for free, just for being a technician.

That said, certain species do receive talents just for being that species. I could see the logic of having careers also provide base talents in a similar fashion, except (and this is a big "except") that careers already have a method for acquiring talents; specifically, specialization trees. Base careers give you career skills and free ranks in those career skills. For talents, you start spending XP. After your first adventure, you could probably buy at least two 5-point talents, so it's not necessarily difficult or time-consuming to start getting talents. Going back to McGyver, I don't think he had his McGyver abilities right out of secret agent school It took experience (as well as the imagination of the show's writers) for him to put together all of those amazing gadgets.

Contraption allows you to make something beneficial to the current situation, so I see it as after making plenty of things of putting so many thing together they learn the ability to improvise. ...

Shouldn`t he always be able to improvise and make beneficial stuff, even without the talent? Isn`t that what the career and specialisation are all about?

Just because a player is a Tech doesn't mean they can put together high-tech equipment with whatever is around and I'd be really nervous about allowing my players to do that whenever they wanted. The ability puts a price and limit to the ability so it doesn't railroad the story with "I make a thing to do that." I'm not saying a Tech shouldn't be able to make stuff, but it should take a while and require preperation without the skill. You said it yourself, creating stuff is what the Tech specilization is all about and that's why this ability is represented as a Talent. Without it your Tech player just isn't good at improvising.

I never thought of it as high-tech equipment, just something that would be beneficial to the situation, a simple contrapment. But if we are talking about hoverboards, jetpacks and thermal detonators, coms, datapads or even small and simple droids I am all on board why this would have to be a talent!

How do you see it? What are your examples of contraptions you would need a talent to improvise and would only be able to make once per session?

Lets see here, a basic mech without Contraption talent wouldn't be able to pick up wires, a screen and power pack to make the slicer/thief/whoever a electronic lock pick to open a door with anything below a daunting/impossible check due to inexperience, with experience he has just received that ability to think on the fly and it became just a hard check.

I feel that the characters are starting as beginners and it takes experience to come up with short cuts. If you have never messed with something before or seen some thing similar what will you base it off of? You really think you can pick up a wrench and now you are a mechanic?

Seriously, I have seen things that engineers have done that we came up with better ways of doing, after we got experience doing things. It takes a college degree to design something good, but it takes a high school diploma to fix what the college boys made, and we did it better. Sorry to all of you with degrees, but practical experience is what I am talking about (i do have my College degree now, as a mater of fact 2 of them).

There we go, it takes practical experience to be able to build a contraption. Even natural shade tree mechanics had learn.

Edit: Obviously my degrees were not an English major.

I view Contraption as the no questions asked talent, the player simply attempts to make the applicable device. Any other instance it would require them having materials to work with and more time. The talent represents being under pressure with no real gear and performing a tech miracle.

In regards to Dodge, if it's just viewed as a jump out of the way talent then it does seem lackluster, but I think of it as the character being able to do the handless cartwheel and return fire simultaneously. Certainly not something everyone can do.

Can you think of other examples of unnecessary talents that should just be handled in the narrative as something a career or character type should be able to do?

There are quite a few, like the entrepreneur and his extra 100cr per session, or Know Somebody. In the old days this would have bugged me, because I'd have expected credits and income and social contacts and all that micro-management to be part of the game play.

However, I have unlearned what I have learned These Talents allow you to dispense with all that micro-management and get on with the story, and I'm finding these Talents more useful for that purpose.

In general, it's very much worth it to scan through all the Talents, pick out those that seem "unnecessary" at first glance, and try to discern the intent and how it can be leveraged to move the story forward. It also means thinking about situations where a character might want to do something similar without the talent, and how it might take them longer, or require better equipment, etc.

The one I had a hard time understanding was the Archaeologist's "Pin", because IIRC it seemed like something I would've allowed somebody to do with a Triumph even without the talent. I forget the details now, I haven't played with an Archaeologist in a while.

I really agree with this. I sat down and looked at Gambler last night and realized how much I really want to play one. Second Chances and Double or Nothing are going to be so much fun.

To OP

This was said before but I see this as more of a clutch thing to do, a way to bypass an obstacle or provide an alternative method to something, which is done after they have gained experience. If they somehow had foreknowledge and they wanted to make something to do it and didn't have the talent but had time, I see that as been different and would make something out of it as its a good idea.

Ninja edits cause I quoted everything wrong

In regards to Dodge, if it's just viewed as a jump out of the way talent then it does seem lackluster, but I think of it as the character being able to do the handless cartwheel and return fire simultaneously. Certainly not something everyone can do.

Now I know what to rename dodge with

In regards to Dodge, if it's just viewed as a jump out of the way talent then it does seem lackluster, but I think of it as the character being able to do the handless cartwheel and return fire simultaneously. Certainly not something everyone can do.

I think I'm gonna rename dodge to that know

I'm going to agree with this. I think one of the issues with EotE and the whole FFGSWRPG line is that there are a lot of Abilities that are not well named. This wouldn't normally be a big issue and I'm not trying to be pedantic but in the example of Dodge it's already mentioned or implied in the general Combat description as what PCs are doing all the time so if you make a Talent you should alter the name a bit to set it apart, like Masterful Dodge or something.The Utility Belt and the Utility Belt Talent, is also one that has caused a bit of unnecessary confusion with some gamers (there have been at least two threads on this one). My point being that talents are something special so they should be immediately identifiable as such and the names should reflect better what the actually do thats different than what is normally available.

My father is a technician. He never invented anything in his life.

He helped invent you!

I don't know if the names are bad. They're all,Talents, after all. We can all try to dodge but a character that is talented at it has an extra game mechanic to represent that.

My father is a technician. He never invented anything in his life.

He helped invent you!

He still cries at night over this...

Sometimes the answer may be to offer a less powerful mundane version? My house rules include:

Brace

Problem: You must be trained in a specific Talent to brace yourself against environment affects. This should be something anyone may attempt.

Brace is a standard Maneuver available to all. The Talent is a “Quick Brace” that only requires an Incidental.

Grapping and Pin Talent

Problem: Brawl can be used to Knockdown and Disorient, but there is no way to hold a person in place without the Pin Talent:

Pin (the Talent): The character may take the Pin action. By successfully passing an Opposed Athletics check against an engaged opponent, the character immobilizes that appointment until the end of the character's next turn.. In addition, the character may spend a Triumph generated on the check to increase the duration of the immobilization by one round.

Anyone may attempt a talentless Pin, but only against a prone or helpless target. A person trained in the Pin talent may attempt the check regardless of the defender’s state. A trained person can take down and pin a person up and ready while an untrained person must first knock him down or otherwise wait for him to somehow be disabled.

This debate looks the same has the one with "why can't more agile character be harder to hit" or "why can't better pilots be harder to hit" threads we see popping from time to time...

The system was made to have to distinct ways to advance your character, skills and talents. Even if you have 5 ranks in Mechanic, you're still not the best, you need the talents also. It's the way the system is built, it's also a way to make your characters more unique and diverse. That was the problem with SW WEG D6 system... with only skills, all the characters felt the same because with the right amount of XP, they could all get to the same stat level ; only the Jedi characters felt truly unique because they had capabilities the others could never have. So by introducing a skill/talent system, now every character can feel unique because there are special things ONLY he can do because he has that talent.

Back to the topic at hand, the CONTRAPTION talent is meant to be used on the fly, in the heat of action... Let's say the players need to bypass a magnetic locked door... there are 3 ways to do this.
1- If they already know it and they have the time, they can ask the GM to go buy some tech that could take it down, then they could find something to build without the talent to open it.

2- They don't know ahead of time. They are fighting a squad of stormtroopers near the door in an alley near a tech shop with lots of tech junk lying around. One character ask to search thru the junk to find something to disable the magnetic lock. After one good roll, the GM allows the player to build something from the spare parts he found to open it.

3- The don't know ahead of time. They are fighting a squad of stormtroopers near the door in an empty corridor with nothing at all... the Technician ask to use his communicator plugged into a powerpack to create interferance on the magnetic lock and disable it... the GM says "hummm... no, that wouldn't work" and the player replies "I use Contraption" and the GM then allows it.

The difference between 2 and 3 is that in exemple 2, the GM gave the players the tools to pull it off.
Contraption is the kind of talent that allows the players to bypass an obstacle. It allows the Tech player to shine in some way, outside of combat.

Like some people said, don't give everyone the capacities to do something that needs a talent, it's there to make some archetypes get their moments of glory!

This debate looks the same has the one with "why can't more agile character be harder to hit" or "why can't better pilots be harder to hit" threads we see popping from time to time...

No, this is more like "why is this thing a talent when it can be, and usualy is in other systems, handled as flavour?" or "What, I can`t have a hidden storage on my smuggler`s ship if I don`t have the Hidden Storage talent?"...

I am all for talents, but I started this thread to help me answer a few player questions. A lot of people have answered what I`m already thinking and have told my players.

Btw, I don`t see the problem with dodge at all! Of course everyone can dodge, but those people who take the talent will be better at it! It has a very clear applicability and game mechanics.

This debate looks the same has the one with "why can't more agile character be harder to hit" or "why can't better pilots be harder to hit" threads we see popping from time to time...

No, this is more like "why is this thing a talent when it can be, and usualy is in other systems, handled as flavour?" or "What, I can`t have a hidden storage on my smuggler`s ship if I don`t have the Hidden Storage talent?"...

I am all for talents, but I started this thread to help me answer a few player questions. A lot of people have answered what I`m already thinking and have told my players.

Btw, I don`t see the problem with dodge at all! Of course everyone can dodge, but those people who take the talent will be better at it! It has a very clear applicability and game mechanics.

It's the same thing....

Why can't I build a device that get's me out of trouble with only a SKILL ROLL when it usually is in other systems? (contraption)

Why can't I have a hidden storage on my ship with only a SKILL ROLL when it usually is in other systems? (hidden storage)

Why can't I be harder to hit with only a SKILL ROLL when it usually is in other systems? (dodge)

Why can't I increase the top speed of my ship with only a SKILL ROLL when it usually is in other systems? (full throttle)

Why can't I give my weapon a permanent improvement with only a SKILL ROLL when it usually is in other systems? (jury rigged)

Why can't I get people to rebel with only a SKILL ROLL when it usually is in other systems? (incite rebellion)

In other systems, you handle things with skill rolls, in this system, you have skill rolls and talents.

What's the difference with a player saying "I've got 5 ranks in piloting, I should be harder to hit" and "I've got 5 ranks in mechanic, I should be able to build this" ... it's the same, they want to do something with a skill roll that is governed by a talent.

But hey! You're the GM, you can let your players do anything they want if you want to...

Want to bypass the talent Contraption and allow them to jury rigged a device to do something.... it's your call.

But then no one will want to get that talent because it's now useless....

Stop thinking about this game like it's the same system as other game systems... it isn't !

From narrative to skill/talents to the setting... it is its own system...

My players also ask me from time to time why the system doesn't do this or that... they even might get mad because they were thinking it did... I always say that it works that way RAW and that if they want to change it, we'll talk about it after the game, not during the game when it matters only to them, that it might give them on the spot an edge... people's thinking is biased if you do this. And they usually drop it and don't ask me to house rule at the end.... because now they know, they'll be better next time.

No... "Why can`t the rules be different" is not the same as "Explain how this actually works".

I view Contraption as the no questions asked talent, the player simply attempts to make the applicable device. Any other instance it would require them having materials to work with and more time. The talent represents being under pressure with no real gear and performing a tech miracle.

In regards to Dodge, if it's just viewed as a jump out of the way talent then it does seem lackluster, but I think of it as the character being able to do the handless cartwheel and return fire simultaneously. Certainly not something everyone can do.

This is how I run it. Examples:

The party was without their mechanic for the session. They needed to somehow rid an abandoned escape pod of the swarm of dangerous bugs, so they took specific pieces of equipment they had (some vacuum-sealing plastic, matches, etc) and made a temporary smoke bomb. They subtracted the necessary stuff from their inventories, made a pretty difficult check, and succeeded.

When the mechanic rolls contraption, we wait until we see if he succeeds, THEN we say "how did you do it?" and he doesn't need to remove anything from his inventory.