1. I roll a "3," pay a fate, use the Orb of Destiny, and roll a "2,1" with the Orb. I pay a second fate, re-roll the "1," and get a "6." The Orb of Destiny has thus given me "2,6". I select the "6" to replace my original "3." Is this legal?

2. The Marked for Glory Spell is cast before I roll the die, allowing me to add up to 6 to the result. Suppose I cast Marked for Glory, then roll a "1." Before adding to the die, I use a fate and re-roll the die, and get a "4." I then add 6 to the die, bringing the total to 10. Is this legal? (Or does the Spell consider the roll and re-roll different dice, and is attached to the original roll, thus cancelled the moment I spend fate?)

3. An effect places a Follower on the discard pile, but doesn't say it's "killed." How do I determine which effects consider a follower "discarded, but not killed," for the purposes of resurrecting or preserving them? For example, if I deliver the Princess to the Castle, I doubt she is killed, but I am unsure when delivering her to the Temple.

Is there any generalization we can make that doesn't resort to a "case by case" basis? Or is that impossible?

Thanks for your answers!

1) Illegal. The 2 dice rolled when using the Orb of Destiny are still considered the fate re-roll, and the rules forbid paying another fate to re-roll the same die again. The use of the Orb is not a new roll due to the instructions on a card, it is just the ability to choose 1 of 2 dice used for the same fate re-roll.

2) Legal (The total would be 10). The fate re-roll is not a separate target, it simply replaces the original roll. The Spell affects the re-rolled die.

3) This is a headache issue for me. I've seen arguments for being literal and only allowing it in cases where something is obviously "killed", and I've seen the argument that if it goes to the discard pile (or is to be removed from the game completely) that is enough to qualify, ignoring any thematic explanations. I personally prefer the latter, as it removes any opinion based decision making and simply always applies. I'm not aware of any official ruling that spells this out one way or the other. What I don't like about the first solution is it leaves things to still be argued whether or not something actually was "killed". The Followers you discard at the Vampire's Tower are just staying to have a tea party for all I know, and allowing these sorts of loopholes makes for having biased arguments at the table in the middle of the game. Even is you took the time to create an "official" list of what circumstances equate to being "killed", there really isn't anything stopping a player from arguing the opposite logic during the game. If you simply apply a blanket rule that always works the same way, the arguments are eliminated altogether.

I agree with sanityismyvanity on 1) and 2).

Question 3) is the old question about "killed" Followers raised by the Valkyrie ability for the first time. You cannot allow for a discard=killed solution because this will lead to broken combos with certain Followers. Well, the Valkyrie can still have broken combos is you stick to the word "killed" with all "Followers that fight in your place".

So far I've always considered that effects that use the keyword "killed" to be applicable only on Followers that are explicitly "killed". Making a list of "case by case" solutions would be a nice way to house rule this. Probably it's not such a huge work as it seems.

I agree with sanityismyvanity on 1) and 2).

Question 3) is the old question about "killed" Followers raised by the Valkyrie ability for the first time. You cannot allow for a discard=killed solution because this will lead to broken combos with certain Followers. Well, the Valkyrie can still have broken combos is you stick to the word "killed" with all "Followers that fight in your place".

So far I've always considered that effects that use the keyword "killed" to be applicable only on Followers that are explicitly "killed". Making a list of "case by case" solutions would be a nice way to house rule this. Probably it's not such a huge work as it seems.

I can get on board with going with only those effects that explicitly state a Follower is "killed" being eligible. This is a very black & white solution, and is in keeping with how the rules should be observed. It's just very difficult to explain to people why a Follower that has it's lifeforce drained by the Vampiress cannot be resurrected by the Valkyrie, but one that has been killed by the Soul Drinker can be. I guess just chalk it up to inconsistent wording and move on.

Personally to be fair with the Valkyrie any follower that goes to discard pile in a "described" or is sent to discard pile in a "described" way cannot be resurrected. Thus when the Vampiress "drains the life-force" of a follower it cannot be resurrected because it describes the way in which the follower was sent to discard pile. Where as Soul Drinker does say "kill".

Anything that just says discard a follower is then concedered "killed" eg chasm.

One thing that comes to mind is also the concept of "sacrifice", which is not defined by the rules but is implicit in many effects, most notably on the Vampire's Tower. Using a Spell like Preservation to save a Follower there is thematically not correct, because those Followers are being taken by the Vampire to quench his thirst. If he has no Followers to take, he's going to take lives directly from the character. It's not a random "kill", but it's a sacrifice being done and therefore is a deliberate choice by the player that cannot be countered. The same applies to the Vampiress.

I took the time to list down all cards where this can be applied (took not more than 30 mins):

Effects that use “killed”

Baba Yaga

Champion

Chasm

Cleric

Cyclops

Faithful Hound

Falling Slab

Friendly Giant

Giant Beetle

Gladiator

Grim Reaper

Healing Potion

Magus

Narrow Path

Preservation

Prowling Werewolf

Restoration

Sellsword

Shrine Priest

Sluagh

Soul Drinker

Temple of Varthrax

Valkyrie

Vampire Prince

Vampiric Dragon (both card and space)

Varthrax

Varthrax War Council

Effects from Firelands expansion that use “burn”

City of the Ifrit

Conflagration

Crown of Flame

Curse of Flame

Fiery Retribution

Firelands Scourge

Lava Pools

Effects that use “discard”

Baba Yaga’s Hut

Champion of Light

Cursed by a Hag

Cutbacks

Deathstalker

Deliver (Discard) One Follower AND Roll 1 Die to Accept a Quest (Warlock Quests)

Disciple of Darkness

False Prophet

Fetch

Fiend Slayer

Gremlin

Hand of Midas

Hate Monger

Haunt

Hieromartyr

Horned Owl

Hunchback

Hydrochanter

Ifrit Envoy

Jester

Jinx

Keeper of the Vigil

Kraven

Lost Soul

Oathsworn Guide

Oathsworn Oracle

Old Man of the Sea

Poltergeist

Rejuvenation

Rock Face

Singe

Snake Pit

St. Josephine

Temple Drake

The Noble

Tinkerer

Torchbearer

Undine

Vagabond

Vampiress

Vampire’s Tower

Warhorse

Warlord

Werewolf (Event)

Effects that use "lose" or flavour wording:

Holy Avenger

Leper

Lost City

Temple

Treasure Hunter

Wildlander

I think there are no doubts about 1st and 2nd category. "Killed" is explicit and "burn" is a stand-alone effect.

It's also easy to determine how to handle the last category. Holy Avenger, Treasure Hunter and Wildlander "ascend/depart/wander off to the discard pile" instead ofjust being "discarded". Leper should probably "kill" 1 Follower (from disease) and the same should happen at the Temple (it's being chosen as a sacrificial victim or something like that, but not by character's choice). I'm a bit less sure about Lost City, because it says "either lose 1 Follower or 1 life", but I don't think it's the same situation as the Vampire's Tower. It's more like traps (e.g. Falling Slab) where a Follower can be caught instead of the character.

The 3rd category is the one that gives the headaches to us all. The word "discard" has been misused in certain cases (e.g. Snake Pit, Rock Face), and we can also debate how to handle Followers discarded after a lost attack (e.g. Warhorse), but if you check the cards one by one you'll find that they are either Followers that are discarded under a specific condition (e.g. Poltergeist) or effects that require sacrificing a Follower to obtain or prevent something. It is probably intentional that discarding Followers in those ways cannot be countered by effects that prevent "killing".

I personally think that its fine to allow followers that are just "discarded" to be resurrected by the Valkyrie. Anything else I think is allowing a messy debate that in seriousness can really go ethier way.

I personally think that its fine to allow followers that are just "discarded" to be resurrected by the Valkyrie.

So, in your games, the Valkyrie with Hieromartyr, St. Josephine or Fetch becomes immortal, because she can use them and have them back right away. She will never lose Warhorse, Fiend Slayer, Kraven, Holy Avenger, Wildlander and Treasure Hunter, and can use Champion of Light to flip the Time Card to Day at will, thus becoming invincible in combat. She can also bring the Lost Soul to the Graveyard for N times, gaining N bonuses without suffering any penalties.

And I didn't consider that when other players realise this, they won't use such Followers to prevent the Valkyrie from taking them, so it's also a strong passive protection that limits other players' actions.

I personally think that its fine to allow followers that are just "discarded" to be resurrected by the Valkyrie.

So, in your games, the Valkyrie with Hieromartyr, St. Josephine or Fetch becomes immortal, because she can use them and have them back right away. She will never lose Warhorse, Fiend Slayer, Kraven, Holy Avenger, Wildlander and Treasure Hunter, and can use Champion of Light to flip the Time Card to Day at will, thus becoming invincible in combat. She can also bring the Lost Soul to the Graveyard for N times, gaining N bonuses without suffering any penalties.

And I didn't consider that when other players realise this, they won't use such Followers to prevent the Valkyrie from taking them, so it's also a strong passive protection that limits other players' actions.

Wooo steady on there.. Lets look at these first.

Hieromartyr: If you are defeated in battle or psychic combat, you may discard the Hieromartyr instead of losing Life: this is the same as Vampire Tower- You may discard any number of Followers to avoid this loss of life. Each Follower you discard prevents the loss of one life.. So if you choose to discard Hieromartyr to avoid the loss of a life he must be discarded and not returned.

St. Josephine says she "transcends" to the discard pile.so the Valkyrie can't resurrect her if she uses her ability.

Fetch: Again the same as Hieromartyr you must discard to ignore the effects so resurrecting will in turn cancel the discard. Remember the Valkyrie special ability is "instead of allowing the follower to be placed on the discard pile"

Wildlander: says "wanders off" to the discard pile so the same as St. Josephine

The Holy Avenger: says "ascends" to the discard pile as well

The Kraven: says "runs off" to the discard pile.

The Fiend Slayer and the Treasure Hunter: says "departs" to the discard pile.

So that just leaves Champion of Light and Warhorse and Lost Soul but I think that Champion of Light and Lost Soul are the same as Fetch and Hieromartyr "you may discard the Lost Soul to gain" hench the Lost Soul needs to be discarded not returned instead of being discarded.

I think alot of it is the Valkyries special ability. It's not "return a just discarded follower from the discard pile back into play as your follower" or something like that its "Instead of allowing it to be placed on the discard pile" so the follower does not really get discarded but instead returns as your follower instead of you allowing it to be discarded. so any effect that asks for a follower to be discarded for some effect "blah blah" does not happen. Now you can ressurect the follower sure but you get "no bonus" for discarding it.

Now some players may think thats abit of a long stretch for what is written in the rules but I don't think so really.

So whats left the Warhorse "so what" I think its abit "wiffy" to agrue that when the Warhorse has to be discarded its not in effect being "Killed" I think its one of the good things about the Valkyrie. Players just have to think about warhorsing up when the Valkyrie is around or find other ways around her.

Edit: After thinking about it and talking to some players I've done a "back flip" Warlocks idea of linking it to "Killed" might be a good way to cancel out all the other rule issues.

Thank you very much for all your replies. Warlock I used your list to generate a new topic; thank you for the inspiration.

Guys, I have another question please...

The Gremlin, a Follower from The City expansion, says you must roll a die "whenever you try to use an Object," to see if it works. How does this work with Objects that are "always on," such as the Solomon's Crown or Magic Belt?

Thanks...

Guys, I have another question please...

The Gremlin, a Follower from The City expansion, says you must roll a die "whenever you try to use an Object," to see if it works. How does this work with Objects that are "always on," such as the Solomon's Crown or Magic Belt?

Thanks...

This was already asked and I gave my answer here (I edited the post because formatting went astray from the old forum):

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/82388-the-gremlin/