No campaign story spoilers here, just item mechanics.

Is my math off, or is Shu Yen's lightsaber severely underwhelming, to the point of not even worth using over the starter staff?

Shu Yen's lightsaber uses a red and blue die, which means on average it does 3 damage on an attack, and gets .5 surges.

The plasteel staff uses a green and yellow die, which means on average it does 2.33 damage on an attack, and gets 1.33 surges.

Even though the lightsaber does .66 more damage per attack, it only gets a single surge 50% of the time, while the staff can get multiple surges (on average 1.33).

Since on both weapons one surge can be transformed into 1 damage, this means the staff actually does more damage on average.

The lightsaber of course can use a surge to do pierce 3 or cleave 2, but that's only if the player rolls a surge on the attack (50% chance, and the Imperial player may negate the surge anyway). The pierce 3 value is lessened on a hero that can remove a defense die from the target's pool, and cleave is only useful if you happen to have two targets adjacent to you (which the imperial player is less likely to do, both knowing you have that ability and having forces that mostly use ranged attacks anyway.)

The lightsaber does 1 automatic damage when the hero uses their ability to reroll their defense die. Of course this only useful if the hero rolled low, otherwise they risk getting a poorer result on their defense for the sake of doing one damage.

On top of that, the staff has reach and the lightsaber doesn't. You might argue the lightsaber is slightly better, but it shouldn't even be a contest. Why am I even debating if I should bother to use a lightsaber over a freakin' tube of plasteel?

There's some circumstances where the saber will be better than the staff, and some where the staff will be better than the saber. Considering the staff is your free starter item and the saber requires success at a side mission (which even on success has the opportunity cost of not having done a different mission), it seems like the saber should have been more in line with the tier 3 weapons, no? As it is, the tier 2 and 3 weapon you can purchase are clearly better. Guess I'll sell my lightsaber and staff to more easily afford, well, almost any other weapon.

Teh light saber has more upgrade slots.

You can put the upgrade that gives you a free Surge on it and the one that gives you reach.. The staff can only take one upgrade.

Just saying...

@garden, Very good points. I haven't been a campaign where the lightsaber was gotten. I will think twice about attempting that mission.

You can sell your Plasteel Staff for 50 credits (RRG Pg. 21), but you can't sell or give away reward cards (RRG Pg.22).

@Alarmed, My lightsaber card only has one upgrade slot... same with the staff. Am I the only one with this issue?

I also find the lightsaber a bit weird. It is better than the starter staff and has much better surge abilities so the balanced hilt is a very good upgrade. It's a weird combo with Diala's precise strike. +3pierce and "remove on defence die" often has the same effect. Again Vader or other 2die enemies its's good, but otherwise I guess you should see it as it allows you to save strain from not using precise strike, but using the +3pierce instead.

thestag > AFAIK the saber only has 1 upgrade slot

And compare it to the Level 3 melee weapon Force Pike...

After looking into this a bit more. I actually think that the Lightsaber isn't so bad. It's free. As in you don't have to spend credits for it. Plus you get credits for the mission in which it is acquired, and any credits not used on buying new weapons can be used to upgrade the Lightsaber. I agree with Hatting that Balanced Hilt can really beef up the saber.

All that being said, I feel most the side missions have better rewards.

Teh light saber has more upgrade slots.

You can put the upgrade that gives you a free Surge on it and the one that gives you reach.. The staff can only take one upgrade.

Just saying...

After looking into this a bit more. I actually think that the Lightsaber isn't so bad. It's free. As in you don't have to spend credits for it. Plus you get credits for the mission in which it is acquired, and any credits not used on buying new weapons can be used to upgrade the Lightsaber. I agree with Hatting that Balanced Hilt can really beef up the saber.

All that being said, I feel most the side missions have better rewards.

Just because it doesn't cost credits doesn't mean its free. You have to choose to do Temptation, which means you aren't doing a different side mission with a better reward. If you do this side mission toward the end of the campaign, the lightsaber is basically trash. Yeah you can upgrade, but you could also use that same upgrade on a better weapon.

It's not 100% trash, even if you take it with you on a mission you can use it's foresight upgrade thing and you can throw it pretty far with Dancing weapon, all while still using a stronger melee weapon since you can take 2 weapons with you on a mission.

I agree that it's not that great though and could've definitely used some changes. But a free tier 2-3 weapon would've been a little much. But that is a problem when your class reward is a weapon, you can't make it too powerful or else you're basically giving the rebels even more money as they'll never need to replace it. But once you replace it, thats basically a reward ability down the drain, since those never get replaced.

Giving it a green instead of a blue or 2 upgrade slots would've been best. Heck, maybe even just make it deal auto-hits based on what tier shop you are using.

Your math is off. Including damage surges (not taking defence into account) plasteel staff deals 3 damage each attack while the lightsaber does 3 7/9 (pre surges it's 2 1/6 and 3 1/3). This doesn't take into account cleave2 (which is huge), stun utility, reach or recovery (which are also good but not as good imo). Of course it gets much less favourable when you compare it with, say, the bd-1 but that's when you start talking about the foresight boost (which is the real reason you get the lightsaber). It's pretty in line with the rest of the hero rewards (which are of course way ahead of other reward cards)

EDIT: Fixed 1/6 typo.

Your math is off. Including damage surges (not taking defence into account) plasteel staff deals 3 damage each attack while the lightsaber does 3 7/9 (pre surges it's 2 1/6 and 3 1/6). This doesn't take into account cleave2 (which is huge), stun utility, reach or recovery (which are also good but not as good imo). Of course it gets much less favourable when you compare it with, say, the bd-1 but that's when you start talking about the foresight boost (which is the real reason you get the lightsaber). It's pretty in line with the rest of the hero rewards (which are of course way ahead of other reward cards)

May I ask how to got these numbers? I'll recheck my math when I get home from work, but I added up the total possible for each type of result for each die then divided by 6 to find the average for each die in each category. For the staff I added the yellow and green average and for the saber I added the red and blue damage. You are sure you didn't mix in dice from another similar game?

Effective damage vs various defense dice combinations:

• natural = 2.17 damage, 1.33 surge
• effective = 3.00 / 1.50 / 0.51 damage against 0 / 1 / 2 black dice
• effective = 1.79 / 1.32 damage against a white die / with cunning

• natural = 3.33 damage, 0.50 surge
• effective = 3.78 / 2.56 / 1.49 damage against 0 / 1 / 2 black dice
• effective = 2.46 / 1.99 damage against a white die / with cunning

• natural = 3.50 damage, 0.67 surge
• effective = 4.08 / 2.50 / 1.16 damage against 0 / 1 / 2 black dice
• effective = 2.65 / 2.16 damage against a white die / with cunning

• natural = 3.83 damage, 1.83 surge
• effective = 5.35 / 3.74 / 2.20 damage against 0 / 1 / 2 black dice
• effective = 3.63 / 3.13 damage against a white die / with cunning

I reached my result in two ways. One: I have a table with all possible results to do it comprehensively. Two: I did it that way, GY: 8/6+5/6=13/6=2 1/6, RB: 13/6+7/6=20/6=3 2/6. I'm pretty sure you got some dice wrong.

I reached my result in two ways. One: I have a table with all possible results to do it comprehensively. Two: I did it that way, GY: 8/6+5/6=13/6=2 1/6, RB: 13/6+7/6=20/6=3 2/6. I'm pretty sure you got some dice wrong.

You're right, I managed to miscount the # of damage on both the red and the green die. Still think the saber is disappointing, though, and I think it's kind of silly that a Jedi is better off pitching it in favor of a vibro-ax.

So these are the average results for the various attack dice, correct?:

Red: 2.17 damage, 0.17 surges, 0 range (best damage die)

Blue: 1.17 damage, 0.33 surges, 3.17 range (best ranged accuracy die)

Yellow: 0.83 damage, 0.83 surges, 1 range (best surge die)

Green: 1.33 damage, 0.5 surges, 1.67 range (most balanced die)

Those look right. On topic for the main issue: I does seem a bit out of flavour (though I maintain that the foresight boost is worth keeping it for (two weapons ftw)). OTOH you've got to ask yourself "would it be fair on the imperial player if it was as strong as a lightsaber should be given that she can get it in time for story mission 2 (well, 1 officially)?"

Those look right. On topic for the main issue: I does seem a bit out of flavour (though I maintain that the foresight boost is worth keeping it for (two weapons ftw)). OTOH you've got to ask yourself "would it be fair on the imperial player if it was as strong as a lightsaber should be given that she can get it in time for story mission 2 (well, 1 officially)?"

As far as fairness goes, that's why the option I was in favor of was more modification slots. So when you first get it it's not that great, but if you are able to spend the credits you can buy tier-appropriate modifications.

I don't think that actually fixes the problem. The Bd-1 (which is the weapon most likely to make the saber redundant) has 2 mod slots so unless you give the saber 3 (which doesn't seem right to me) the problem still remains.

I've got to play with her a bit more, but if we compare Diala to the only other Force user in the game with a lightsaber, her stats kinda make sense. Vader's downright nasty and able to bring the pain. He's a pissed off cyborg Sith lord. Diala is a trained Force User (not a Jedi) with a lead pipe. She shouldn't be able to put out the kind of damage that Vader does.

But this is her master's lightsaber, I hear you cry. To which I retort: "Vader's alive and he's dead. Obviously Shu Yen wasn't in Vader's weight class and neither is his apprentice."

We could make thematic and lore and flavor arguments one way or the other til the end days, so it seems to me that the real question here is in the context of gameplay design and balance. If this hero's side mission awards a weapon that is outclassed by almost every other weapon in the game, is that good game design? Or does that make this hero's side mission a red herring that will just waste the time of rebel teams who don't know any better?

...the real question here is in the context of gameplay design and balance. If this hero's side mission awards a weapon that is outclassed by almost every other weapon in the game, is that good game design? Or does that make this hero's side mission a red herring that will just waste the time of rebel teams who don't know any better?

I think if you look strictly at the damage potential of the weapon itself, you could say "yes, this weapon is outclassed and let's skip this mission." but I think it's all the additional things you can do with the lightsaber with her Force Powers that make one realize that perhaps the mission is worth it, and Diala is better off with the lightsaber.

8 melee weapons in the game (pre-twin shadows). I would rate the lightsaber as number 3 (haven't done the formal math of valuing the surges though). This is not including the bonus to foresight (which is, on its own, better than the grey mission reward cards and arguably better than allies).

Regarding melee weapons. Has anyone ever used the fist weapons? All those weapons without slots seems unpopulor among the heroes.

Regarding melee weapons. Has anyone ever used the fist weapons? All those weapons without slots seems unpopulor among the heroes.

My friend did against me and they weren't too bad because of their amazing surge abilities.

I went on a math spree today, some interesting results.

With an unmodified lightsaber in a single target scenario, it does quite poorly, faring far below the tier 2 melee weapons.
If you however, focus on cleaving over pierce, it does much better thanks to the +1 dmg, 2 cleave surge, putting it on par with (unmodified) Vibro-ax but weaker than Knucklers.

If you add a balanced hilt to the lightsaber it becomes on par with Vibro-ax w/ extended haft(and better than knucklers which doesn't have a mod slot) for single target damage.
It becomes frighteningly powerful in a cleaving scenario doing more total damage than force pike. (Tho Force pike beats it for single target damage)

This is all against a black defense die, the weapon's effective drops considerably against a white die, like all pierce-heavy attacks.

I do have numbers if someone wants them.

I would please.

I won the lightsaber today (went for it because the only other mission was crate searching -.-), and at the very least I look forward to buffing up foresight and murdering fools in their own turn while taking no damage in return