When it comes to any upgrades it depends on how much you extra you spend on that ship and durability then compared to getting a new ship.

As of now spending 12 points on upgrade is a headhunter Tie Fighter so if you count up your upgrades and it comes to 12 to 24 points you might want to take a look into what it is on.

Now on some list builds spending over 12 points on upgrades is justifiable such as the Buzzdroids. But for most lists if you can get another ship for the points on upgrades you have spent it is best to ditch the upgrades and get another ship.

You have never met PRockets from my A-Wings.

Absolutes are never always true.

Played a game today where ordnance played a Huge part. Turn 2, and my Ten Numb got 1 shot by Lone Wolf N'dru with Cluster Missiles. 32 points down the Toilet (gave him calc.)

Turn 4, and Guri gets attacked by an Outmaneuvering Jake armed with Prockets. She'd already lost her shield. I rolled a Crit and 4 eyes, and she rolled all blanks, taking her unfired Advanced Torps and stacks of upgrades with her to the void.

Later, Tycho closed in to finish off the damaged N'dru, but fluffed his roll. N'dru vaped him with a Hot Shot Blaster.

In fact, I think the only damage done not by ordnance was Predator Kavil Autoblasting a shield off Jake.

TBH - I love the way ordnance works, purely from a flavour POV

In the OT (and this /is/ an OT game for now), we really did not see ordnance apart from the protons that took out the death star

If ordnance worked as reliably and lethally as most players seem to want it in the original movies, we would have seen very little laser/blaster fire... it would have been largely missiles/rockets.

At the moment, ordnance is "something extra" you take for special situations or niche cases ... much like in the OT...

Yeah, ordnance can be great - if used well and with some luck. Pretty sure I saw some proton torpedoes take down a Death Star once.

Maxam I think another reason (thematically) that the movies wouldn't have ordnance shooting at fighters is the cost. Rebels were in short supply as mentioned and the empire is cheap (as seen in how they kit out their shock troops) but I get where you are coming from.

Personally I don't mind how they work now. I really enjoy them. Obviously some are usually not worth taking but there are a few that I really enjoy using and hopefully future sets will continue to release well balanced choices for ordnance centric lists.

Proton rockets kick ass, but they are situational and depend heavily on which ships you put them on. They are amongst the cheapest, offer one of the highest improvements in damage (for adding up to 2 dice over a regular attack without forcing you to spend your action to do so), have the easiest action requirement, and even have one of the highest damage potentials of any single attack. The only drawback is range 1 requirement, adding to the risk/reward, but still quite usable.

However, the choices of ships suitable for them are a short list, with most seeing little table use as it is. (A-wing is reluctant to give up their refit to mount these, advanced won't see a lot of use until raider is around)

There is always an exception to the rule, Always. :-) But for 2 points, i'm thinking Seismic Charge, Fire Control System, Up grade to a higher level pilot skill, add a crew member, or a elite pilot upgrade. And for three points, I would add an extra hull or stealth device

Wait... What is the title of the post?

You are always better off just getting an extra ship, than using ordinance!

....so then it isn't always is it?

EDIT: I apologize. I only made it to page two before I saw too many contradictions not to post this. I didn't seen on page three that you did in fact catch yourself. I'm leaving it because it makes me smile but I just want you to know this isn't a blatant trolling.

Depends. I don't think the Jonus squads would be nearly as effective.

I definitely agree with this.

Also, not every ship can take a cannon upgrade. So, you can't just "take an HLC instead". I notice this especially true with Empire lists. The only cannon slots are on shuttles or Defenders. If you want something that is a fast and nimble ship that can also deliver at least one crippling hit, you can't go with HLC. There is more to a list than just how many times you can roll more red dice. With that logic, you should never take anything for the Rebels than B-wings with HLC because they are better.r

I find your lack of logic disturbing. Also, only Sith deal in absolutes.

You are NOT always better off getting another ship for ordnance, because there are several reasons to take ordnance:

Proton Bombs get critical damage in under shields. Even if you only get off one point of damage on a ship, this is huge because a) it's under shields and b) there's a good chance it'll be Direct Hit. Even if it isn't, there will always be a good perk to hitting another ship with Proton Bombs. Seismic Charges are less of a good thing because they don't go through shields, but for two points you have the perfect weapon to disrupt formations.

Assault Missiles affect the other ships besides the one you attack. If you pair this with Lt. Blount then you don't even have to damage the person you hit.

Homing Missiles not only ignore evade tokens, making them wonderful for attacking TIE Fighters/Interceptors, but they also don't require you to spend your target lock, so you can use it to increase your chances of getting full damage.

Proximity Mines are wonderful for area-denial. You leave them, and if you're fighting ships which are susceptible to 3-dice attacks then it suddenly makes getting through asteroids much less appealing.

Ion Pulse Missiles are hell on large-base ships, because not only are they more vulnerable to ordnance because of their low agility, the IPM will give them two ion tokens immediately, thus ionizing them without needing to hit them more than once.

Proton Rockets are marvelous on A-wings, because you're talking about a five-dice attack that gives no range bonuses at R3 to your target.

Flachette Torpedoes are great because you cause stress regardless of whether you hit.

See, you're not really paying to damage the enemy so much as you are paying to get certain awesome effects with the possibility of dealing damage.

Also:

(I'm just using the Proton Torpedo or the Concussion Missile for these examples.)

Considering there are a HELL of a lot more missiles/torpedoes than these and considering the newer ones are FAR superior to these older ordnance weapons, this is obviously your problem here.

Here's the thing with ordnance cost.

If it goes off it generally earns its points when used against midcost ships.

Comparing a Z-95 with a concussion missile to a z-95 with a target lock. Firing at a unmodified Bounty Hunter firespray(a mediocre ordnance target.) Against the very very common Millenium Falcon it does even better.

A z-95 with a target lock does, on average, .81 damage.

That's about 2.67 points of damage per attack.

The same ship, firing a 4 point concussion missile, does an average of 1.95 damage. That's 3.762 extra points in damage, making that attack do 6.435 damage.

Frontloading more damage is always better on frail ships as well.

Ordnance's issue is not its Cost. Or even its relative cost. It is its opportunity cost. And the fact it's awful against specific other types of ships.(Cheaper higher agility ships)

But when fired at low agility high cost targets(which are again, very very common) they are worth the cost.

Reliability is a big issue.

Adaptability is a big issue.

Ease of use is a big issue.

But for any two attack ships that can take it, it can make or break games.

So in the end the math does not back up your assertion that cost is the issue.

Especially when you add in harder to quantify missile effects(splash damage, Stress, etc...

Hmm reading this it almost sounds as though ordnance is fine and not needing a fix.

I wonder if it may only ever be used as a filler for 10 or less open points and never the primary dominate weapon and if so wouldn't that be okay? Also if we go with ordnance is only a filler then maybe the best fix is to have it not take/use a primary weapon attack and leave everything else the same.

It isn't reliable, very situational, needs to be setup to use correctly, not usually worth it compared to many upgrades...

But more effective on low attack dice ships, more effective against larger low agility targets (like the ones that have turrets).

Just my two cents.

Of course, you're always better getting an extra ship then using ordnance ....

Of course, you're always better getting an extra ship then using ordnance ....

Haha for the love of God...

As for the OP, your statistics are unfortunately flawed. The mistake you're making is very common - basically you can't justify the value of ships/ordnance/secondary weapons by simply adding attack values. The relationship isn't linear unless you're firing at a ship with zero defense like a Decimator.

For example, against a Decimator with zero defense? Absolutely - two ships firing 2 attack dice each is the same as an HLC shot. Because you're basically throwing 4 dice against zero in either scenario.

But if you're firing at a cloaked Phantom with 4 defense? Two ships firing 2 attack dice each (2v4 x2) is not the same as an HLC shot (4v4).

The easiest way to conceptualize this is with extreme examples. Against a 100 defense ship, which does more damage? A single ship with 100 attack? Or 100 ships with 1 attack?

The single ship has ~30% chance of punching through that defense and dealing damage every time it fires. Whereas those 100 ships? The chances of rolling 100 blanks on 100 defense dice is 1 in 25,300,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. This explains why the HLC and ordnance are so expensive.

A lot of ordnance is overpriced, but options like Proton Rockets? The feeling you get when 5 red dice are being rolled against your interceptor is not the same as a few rounds of TIE fighter shooting. Or N'Dru with Cluster Missiles. The tactical advantage of utility ordnance like bombs and Flechette Torpedos, when well-timed, also shouldn't be ignored so easily.

Ah haha! Draco you witty mofo

Zero that is a great point and that extreme example is very good at highlighting the nonlinear advantage of increasing attack dice

On a side note that is the ACTUAL statistical chance? Because that is insane! Lol.

Ah haha! Draco you witty mofo

Zero that is a great point and that extreme example is very good at highlighting the nonlinear advantage of increasing attack dice

On a side note that is the ACTUAL statistical chance? Because that is insane! Lol.

Lets see... It would be 3/8 (odds of rolling blank on one die) raised to the power of 100 (the number of dice rolled)...2.5300346e-43.

Technically, for the 1 in X chance notation, we'd need to take the inverse, so it's appx 1 in 395,251,230,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.

It is, however, appx 2.5300346e-43 to 1 odds, which is the same thing.

Hmm reading this it almost sounds as though ordnance is fine and not needing a fix.

I wonder if it may only ever be used as a filler for 10 or less open points and never the primary dominate weapon and if so wouldn't that be okay? Also if we go with ordnance is only a filler then maybe the best fix is to have it not take/use a primary weapon attack and leave everything else the same.

It isn't reliable, very situational, needs to be setup to use correctly, not usually worth it compared to many upgrades...

But more effective on low attack dice ships, more effective against larger low agility targets (like the ones that have turrets).

Just my two cents.

10 loose points are often spend better on upgrades though.

The biggest problem with ordnance remains the lack of modifiers. The recent missiles have the right idea in that instead of discarding the target lock, you merely have to have a lock on the ship, allowing you to still use the target lock to reroll dice. An FAQ to fix this for the ordnance still stuck in the discarding of the target lock would be ideal.

It is, however, appx 2.5300346e-43 to 1 odds, which is the same thing.

...never tell me the odds!

Right now, if you go with 4 Scimitars because you like the model,

You'd better spend the remaining 36 points for 3 Ties then for ordnance. Or Vessery + Calculation

Adding bombs and mines would be an option, though.

Right now, if you go with 4 Scimitars because you like the model,

You'd better spend the remaining 36 points for 3 Ties then for ordnance. Or Vessery + Calculation

Adding bombs and mines would be an option, though.

I know this is just my play style but I'm okay with this. I never saw the TIE Bombers and being the main ship in a 100 point dog fight any more than I thought the HWK-290 should be. To me, at least, they are support ships and best suited for Epic if (and that is a big if) the ordnance is worth taking. With Extra Munitions and Fail Safe plus the bombers only taking between 1/4 and 1/3 max of your points then you have have room for a good mixed and quite pitched fight.

Besides position you want as many attack dice as possible and then to get as many (critical) hits as possible.

With HLC this is easier to obtain; it has 4 dice, requires no action.

Is therefore ordnance flawed? Not necessarily, but you must build around your ordnance to have maximum effect. 3 Bombers firing their cluster missiles with support of captain jonus works a lot better than a single bomber firing his concussion missile on his own. If you are not prepared to go for the alpha strike, leave ordnance of the table. But to say it is worthless, no matter what, is going a step to far.

I can attest to more red dice per attack is not equal to more red dice split up among ships.

For an extreme example, I will provide my hated list by my friends, the Opticore (or the rebel superlaser)

Keyan+Opportunist+HLC

Wes

Jan+Ion Turret+Nein

The entire list revolves around getting Mr Jedi up to 6 attack dice (7 if you take APT) and blowing the most expensive ship they have out of the sky.

It also helps that when they defend, they have NO tokens to modify defense dice with, because of Wes lining up a shot for opportunist.

Keyan takes a Shot with HLC at the target Wes marked for him, and Jan can also feed him more dice. Keyan actions usually involve just target lock or barrel roll, because of opportunist generating a sudo-focus for him. On average, you will roll 1-2 blanks, 1-2 eyes, and 3-4 hits with those 6 dice. Add in rerolls, and it often comes down to 6 solid hits on the enemy. A phantom that is obstructed (no range bonus though because of secondary weapon) gets 5 evade dice, if they are lucky, they will get 2 evades. Still enough to kill them. (In fact, I have never NOT one-shot a phantom so far).

This is an extreme example, but for some reason it does VERY well. I guess my friends haven't realized that they need to take a swarm to counter this list. Funny enough, a TIE interceptor that rolls a natural 3 evades still gets one shotted, sorry Fel.

Er, what I am trying to say is that I could run an extra B in here, or drop wes and do something like a BBXXZ or a BBBBz, but something about a GARINTEED kill on your opponents most tricked out ship on that very first range 3 exchange is amazing.

Because, lets face it, the squad is basicly Keyan+ 70 points of upgrades to buff him and make him work.

Also, if you guys haven't, I would suggest taking this list aginst a non-swarm for a few games, it is quite fun to play. You need to kinda come in from the side of the board and turn into them, with Wes and Jan in front of Keyan, and then pull a 1 manuver after the first opening salvo, so you can hit them again. With them 2 ships down, the dog-fight melee begins, and you can use Wes to give Jan a better chance of ioning their third ship, and then Wes can finish that one off if Keyan is already dead. Jan can buff more than just Keyan.

Trust me, it's a fun combo to fly.

My main problem with the original post is that it begins with a thesis that it is always better to take an extra ship than to take ordnance and then spends the first half of the post explaining why HLCs are better than ordnance. What does the HLC have to do with extra ships being better than ordnance?

Hello Everyone! I hope that you are having a wonderful day!

The OP'er here, and I just have a few points. I don’t mean any disrespect, (With the exception of Rebel Scum!)

First: my logic is not faulty. Data can use viewed from many different ways, and each way is valid depending on the point your trying to prove. I choose to view the date from the equation [(Maximum damage over time) per Cost]. It is Exactly the data I choose to prove my point. (Faulty Logic, yea ok, apparently this is the product of an inferior rebel education system.)

The post is from the point of view of a total Ordnance Build,(4 bombers), not the spare or special purpose missile.

Second, I really don’t care about the rebels nor their ships. Rebels LOOK funny and they SMELL bad! :-) And I’m not sure which smells worse, the ships or the pilots! :-)

(p.s. I really hope that the rebels DO spend the points of Ordnance. It not like their are going to hit my Interceptor!)

Third, Many of the examples actually prove my point. For example,

From zerotc

“For example, against a Decimator with zero defense? Absolutely - two ships firing 2 attack dice each is the same as an HLC shot. Because you're basically throwing 4 dice against zero in either scenario.”

“But if you're firing at a cloaked Phantom with 4 defense? Two ships firing 2 attack dice each (2v4 x2) is not the same as an HLC shot (4v4).”

Well instead of purchasing An A-Wing with a missile:

Prototype Pilot (17) + Concussion Missile (+ 4) = 21

Maximum Damage output in 6 rounds = 14 hits

It is better to purchase a X-Wing:

Rookie Pilot (21)

Maximum Damage output in 6 rounds = 18 Hit.

So thank you!

And the last point, I used "Proton Torpedoes" and "Concussion Missiles" because of Proton Torpedoes are in the First Star Wars Movies, (I don’t know where there are getting the New stuff from, but the new Missiles and Torpedoes DON’T come from the movies.) I’m not totally sure, but I think that the Concussion Missiles were used in the movies. (COOL, now I have a reason to watch the movies again!)

I hope that everyone has a wonderful day, (Except the Rebel, I hope that your engines fall off!)

p.s. It's all in good fun! :-)

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to upset you rebel scum by telling people that you guys look funny and you smell bad. just saying!