How can the OL lose First Blood?

By Lifer4700, in Descent: Journeys in the Dark

First, let me start with the disclaimers.

1) I have only played the game when 4 heroes are used.

2) This thread is ONLY about the First Blood quest.

3) I am not attacking the game or anyone on this forum. I love the game!

If you're interested in a Wall-Of-Text background, expand the spoiler...

I have been playing games of all sorts for several decades. My first game involving miniatures on a table was D&D back in the ‘70s, but focusing on tactical-style board games, I started with Squad Leader in the mid ‘80s.

My gaming group tried Imperial Assault for the first time a few months ago. We liked the idea of a tactical game with light RPG elements, especially in the Star Wars universe. However, we got hung up on the opening scenario. The rebels were defeated. “Ok, let’s try that again!” we rebels said. This time, being more familiar with game mechanics, we formulated a plan to stop the Imperials. But to no avail, the rebels were stomped again, even more quickly and efficiently this time, since the overlord was also now more familiar with the system. After the Imps handed the Rebels their collective butts a third time, we all started analyzing the scenario, and found that it was impossible for the Rebs to win, there was no way to stop the Imps from simply rushing past us and pushing a button. We went online and were told things like “it’s just a learning scenario” and “the rest of the game is more balanced” and “Oh, I never played it, we just played the first quest.” We were also asked “why didn’t you use X or Y ability?” and in truth it was because the Read This First told us to Stop Here, don’t read the rest of the book or worry about those pesky abilities, just go play the opening scenario.

A few days later, we all decided that we would probably enjoy the game if we were to finish reading the rules, and try the actual quests, but we never got around to playing IA again. The momentum was lost, I guess. It sits on the shelf. We all still had a bad feeling about it, since the opening scenario was happy with crushing defeat for 4 of the 5 players.

Last month, I discovered Descent. I read the rulebook, watched a youtube playthrough, and thought “hey, this looks good” and bought it. Our group played the intro scenario “First Blood” a few nights ago, and the Heroes won, unquestioningly. Sure, they took a beating – the healer spent most of his time “2D” (as a token, being knocked out), but the overlord was still only able to get 2 goblins of the initial 5 through, and not one after that. In fact, we didn’t see a way that the OL could possibly lose this scenario unless the heroes rolled all X’s against the goblins (or the OL rolled 3 shields for all goblins every time), for the first 2 rounds. Once the first pack of goblins is off the board (Dead or Exited), the OL only gets one goblin per turn after that. That barely kept the mage busy. The warrior and healer were fighting with the ettins, and the scout was running around picking up all the loot. Once all the search tokens were cleaned up, the heroes dropped Mauler to end the quest. All the OL cards did was cost the heroes a few turns, at best; there was no way to change the outcome. The only worry the heroes had was whether they would accidentally kill Mauler before getting all the search tokens.

This seems to be similarly lopsided, like IA’s intro quest, but in the opposite direction. The funny thing is, this seemed perfectly OK. 4 of the 5 people “won”, and the loser was the bad guy anyway, so we were all very interested in playing it again.

Otherwise, here's my question.

I saw someone post that the Overlord won “First Blood”.

How on earth can the OL win this quest without horrible, horrible die rolling by the heroes, combined with phenomenal die rolling by the OL for the first two rounds?

Please remember that I have no problem with certain quests favoring the OL and certain quests favoring the Heroes. To me, this is obviously one favoring the Heroes, and rightly so – it sets up the story arc and leads the Heroes into the remainder of the quests.

Edited by Lifer4700

I can see two ways for the OL to win this quest.

1) Playing the game while misinterpreting some important rules such as doing multiples attack actions with monsters, not reading the rules to the heroes, etc.

2) Playing the game against new players that do not have a grab on the mechanics yet.

I won First Blood twice as the OL and in both cases heroes have lost sight of the victory condition (trying to take down goblins instead of killing the master ettin. This falls in category 2).

(They were trying "not losing" instead of trying to win the quest)

I think that any OL that plays against experienced players should focus on limiting the amount of search tokens the heroes get instead of trying to win this quest.

Edited by Guillaumericher

Put simply? The Overlord can win if the heroes don't move right. Or get greedy. Or just have a bad hero team.

I've won First Blood as the Overlord twice. Once was against a 2 hero team and the second was against a 3 hero team. ( I may have even beat it as the OL on a solo playthrough.)

In all cases, the Hero players made poor choices in moves and targets. If a Hero doesn't position himself toward the water tile so that he can pick off goblins, then the OL can quickly win. Most hero players pick that up fairly well. Those that don't get punished with failure.

I have also won First Blood as the OL, but also only twice (out of about 10 campaigns).

Both times, using Basic I, I was fortunate enough to have both Dash cards in my hand very early. That, combined with at least one poor roll by the heroes, some poor planning, and some serious Search Card greed, I prevailed.

It is, however, pretty much a long shot for the OL. If the heroes play even half way competently, it should be a fairly easy win for them.

Edited by any2cards

I had lost on my first campaign, playing two heroes. It was close enough, but two heroes rolling blue and yellow against two gray and not having luck on their side can end up with very low damage being dealt.

Add in two dashes and the goblins were away quicker than Mauler could be killed.

Some people overlook that he gets additional health per hero too.

Edited by mitchjmiller

I've won this before as OL by having the heroes not speedblitz immediately and getting my ettins to a key blocking point where the goblins couldn't get attacked, and then having them run out while the ettins tanked.

In general, you aren't losing this one as heroes unless you royally screw up positioning.

I've won this before as OL by having the heroes not speedblitz immediately and getting my ettins to a key blocking point where the goblins couldn't get attacked, and then having them run out while the ettins tanked.

In general, you aren't losing this one as heroes unless you royally screw up positioning.

I hadn't even thought of this until you mentioned positioning for the OL.

I think I can see a difference if the OL is able to get the ettins onto the border between tiles 16 & 12 before a hero can get over there (or at least punish the one that does, instead of tanking between 16 & 8,

Of course, that still brings up the problem of new goblins dying before getting an action, since they're placed at the end of the OL turn. You could put an ettin between 16 & 26 as well. The problem with that is non-mauler gets killed too quickly without the 8 bonus health.

But either way, I think I will try that next time. Move them out into 16/12 & 16/26, and try to contain the heroes on 8, 16,. & 9.

Thanks for the advice.

Oh, and for the record, the heroes were throwing horribly for a few rounds also. I think the knight rolled 6-8 X's on Mauler througout the fight.

The heroes were: Syndrael/Knight, Avric/Disciple, Jain/Thief, & Tarha/Necro/Reanimate.

It was quite a bit of fun, mostly because I don't mind losing if everyone has a good time - and they did.

My next post might be about A Fat Goblin, since that seems slanted a bit toward the OL only IF he can contain the heroes in tile 11 for the first turn with Merriods' immobilize or something similar. Otherwise, if the warrior goes first and drops a single monster, then everyone else can rush past, gaining the river tile. Then it seems like it's the same thing as First Blood. The mage stays in the upper portion of tile 20 and blows away the single goblin each turn, the warrior and healer block off tile 18, contianing the other monsters while the scout finishes the objective on the farm.

On the second thought, even Immobilize wouldn't be as limiting as I thought, since the healer bought Cleansing Touch with his XP.

Any thoughts?

Edited by Lifer4700

I've won this before as OL by having the heroes not speedblitz immediately and getting my ettins to a key blocking point where the goblins couldn't get attacked, and then having them run out while the ettins tanked.

In general, you aren't losing this one as heroes unless you royally screw up positioning.

This should not happen if you play against experienced player.

I would add that since the result of the quest is 1xp for both side, the heroes should not even focus on winning.

They should be focusing in getting all search tokens to grab the more gold they can. Winning is secondary.

Remember the other benefit of winning First Blood is getting to select the next quest - this in itself can be worth playing for victory in First Blood.

Remember the other benefit of winning First Blood is getting to select the next quest - this in itself can be worth playing for victory in First Blood.

Isn't the next quest always Fat Goblin?

No. As it is throughout the entire campaign, the winner of the previous quest, can choose among the available quests. The order they are listed on the sheet has no bearing. You simply need to choose an ACT I quest.

Therefore, after First Blood, the winner can choose amongst the following ACT I quests:

A Fat Goblin

Castle Daerion

The Cardinal's Plight

The Masquerade Ball

Death on on the Wing

Since some of these quests may favor the heroes and since some may favor the OL, it is always valuable to win the previous quest to be able to select the next quest.

Once 3 ACT I quests are played, the side which won the most quests determines what Interlude is played.

Then the process begins all over again for ACT II, although the ACT II quests that are available are based on the results from ACT I.

If you unsure about how all of this works, I highly suggest re-reading the rules, especially page 21. Not only does this page have the specific rules, it also has an excellent example in the side bar box on the right.

Edited by any2cards

I've won this before as OL by having the heroes not speedblitz immediately and getting my ettins to a key blocking point where the goblins couldn't get attacked, and then having them run out while the ettins tanked.

In general, you aren't losing this one as heroes unless you royally screw up positioning.

I hadn't even thought of this until you mentioned positioning for the OL.

I think I can see a difference if the OL is able to get the ettins onto the border between tiles 16 & 12 before a hero can get over there (or at least punish the one that does, instead of tanking between 16 & 8,

Of course, that still brings up the problem of new goblins dying before getting an action, since they're placed at the end of the OL turn. You could put an ettin between 16 & 26 as well. The problem with that is non-mauler gets killed too quickly without the 8 bonus health.

But either way, I think I will try that next time. Move them out into 16/12 & 16/26, and try to contain the heroes on 8, 16,. & 9.

Thanks for the advice.

Oh, and for the record, the heroes were throwing horribly for a few rounds also. I think the knight rolled 6-8 X's on Mauler througout the fight.

The heroes were: Syndrael/Knight, Avric/Disciple, Jain/Thief, & Tarha/Necro/Reanimate.

It was quite a bit of fun, mostly because I don't mind losing if everyone has a good time - and they did.

My next post might be about A Fat Goblin, since that seems slanted a bit toward the OL only IF he can contain the heroes in tile 11 for the first turn with Merriods' immobilize or something similar. Otherwise, if the warrior goes first and drops a single monster, then everyone else can rush past, gaining the river tile. Then it seems like it's the same thing as First Blood. The mage stays in the upper portion of tile 20 and blows away the single goblin each turn, the warrior and healer block off tile 18, contianing the other monsters while the scout finishes the objective on the farm.

On the second thought, even Immobilize wouldn't be as limiting as I thought, since the healer bought Cleansing Touch with his XP.

Any thoughts?

You aren't going to get all 5 out by just running, you have to knock a few of the heroes out at least. Use whatever opportunity you have to get your goblins to get attacks safely.

Trying to play safe with Mauler is a fools errand.

A fat goblin is very hero favored, I'd avoid it if possible, but it's the hero's choice since they won first blood. In act 1, the hero favored quests are Death on the Wing, Castle Daerion, and Fat Goblin. Overlord favored is Cardinal's Plight, with masquerade ball being around 50/50.

Edited by Whitewing

If you unsure about how all of this works, I highly suggest re-reading the rules, especially page 21. Not only does this page have the specific rules, it also has an excellent example in the side bar box on the right.

Yeah, we've used those rules for the rest. I must have just missunderstood for Fat Goblin. I'm sure I read somewhere that was always the first quest after First Blood.

Never won first blood as OL. Just don't see any possible way to do this.

I think Fat Goblin is 50/50 myself. And more OL sided if 3 or more crops get lifted or Splig one turns Frederick .

Never won first blood as OL. Just don't see any possible way to do this.

If you have done a good job explaining the rules to your playing group, you should not be winning First Blood :)

I think Fat Goblin is 50/50 myself. And more OL sided if 3 or more crops get lifted or Splig one turns Frederick .

I remember playing 3 times this quest and each time heroes won in an dramatic way (Splig being under 4 spaces from the exit - once Heroes killed Splig on their last hero action with a long shot from Jain from 5 (or 6?) spaces away).

Encounter 1 has ended with 2 crops for each side each time.

The quest may be hero sided but from my experience it is well balanced. I had lots of fun losing 3 times :D

Encounter 1 isn't too bad for the overlord, the problem is the second encounter. It's not easy to get splig out if the party is well coordinated and positions properly.

As the OL, I usually use Shadow Dragons in the Cave. One, they pretty much slow down the heroes long enough for Splig to find Frederick. And two.... usually Goblins hang around Dragons. And if you move Splig along with the Goblins, his Not Me! ability allows you to sac a gob instead of him taking damage. Find a way to Stun or Immobilize him and he's easy enough to take down.

I was under that impression as the ol player and playing this mission before that there was no way that the heroes could win but one game session I was playing with a new set of players and half way through I even said to the heroes aww don't worry this mission is a breeze for the heroes. It was a two hero party and in the end they lost to my surprise and the guy I told the hey don't worry to got really upset that and made it a point to never discount the possibility of the loss. I honestly thought it was not possible for them to loose but it can happen.

Yeah, it can happen. Mainly with two hero only. Next time, make one of them control 2 heroes, it will be easier ;)

I was under that impression as the ol player and playing this mission before that there was no way that the heroes could win but one game session I was playing with a new set of players and half way through I even said to the heroes aww don't worry this mission is a breeze for the heroes. It was a two hero party and in the end they lost to my surprise and the guy I told the hey don't worry to got really upset that and made it a point to never discount the possibility of the loss. I honestly thought it was not possible for them to loose but it can happen.

The game is much harder with 2 heroes. To the point where most experienced groups prefer to play exclusively with 3 or 4 heroes, even if there aren't that many players at the table.

Edited by Steve-O

On some of the newer campaigns that have had special rules for two heroes. Mainly, they get one bonus attack or heal per turn. It may be worth trying that on the original if heroes are having a hard time.