So... If I really and truly believe that your hat is affecting your dice rolls, can I accuse you of cheating?

No because believing something does not make it true.

Definition of cheating under tournament rules does not require the advantage to be real, only that you intended to have it.

It doesn't matter if the person you're copying from writes an incorrect answer on a test, you're still cheating when you look at their paper and write down their answer. You don't have to end up with a better grade, you just have to have TRIED to gain an unfair advantage to improve your grade.

So... If I really and truly believe that your hat is affecting your dice rolls, can I accuse you of cheating?

No because believing something does not make it true.

Definition of cheating under tournament rules does not require the advantage to be real, only that you intended to have it.

It doesn't matter if the person you're copying from writes an incorrect answer on a test, you're still cheating when you look at their paper and write down their answer. You don't have to end up with a better grade, you just have to have TRIED to gain an unfair advantage to improve your grade.

Isn't it really only cheating if you're caught?

As a teacher, I give an emphatic and resounding "NO!" Cheating is cheating whether you get caught or not.

Guys the definition of cheating only requires the affected party to perceive the advantage. Cheating in a competitive game is wrong.

That means that, yes, your magic hat is cheating only if you really and truly believe it has an outcome on the game.

This is wrong. Perception is meaningless when it comes to whether or not someone cheated. Cheating occurs when a rule -implicit or explicit- is broken. It is a bright-line test.

When it comes to whether or not someone attempted to cheat, that is when perception and intent become relevant.

This is wrong. FFG has a clear definition of what is cheating (found in their ccg tournament rule books, namely conquest and I think coc and netrunner) and it makes clear that cheating is anything outside the rules with the intent to gain an advantage. Like I said the advantage need only be perceived (I'm a MtG judge, so I use the DCI's definition, which frankly is close enough to the one printed in the conquest rule book) which means if you honestly believe that your hat is affecting die rolls in your favor, or conversely preventing good die rolls for your opponent you are cheating. The hat is outside the rules, and the die outcomes are the perceived advantage.

In a competitive tournament there is no gray area.

So you go around and ask each person wearing a hat do they believe there hat gives then an advantage?

ALTERNATE ENDING:

Yes. Wearing a hat indoors is rude and etiquette should be enforced at all costs. Actually, it's about ethics in tournament attire.

So... If I really and truly believe that your hat is affecting your dice rolls, can I accuse you of cheating?

No because believing something does not make it true.

It was a rhetorical question.

So... If I really and truly believe that your hat is affecting your dice rolls, can I accuse you of cheating?

No because believing something does not make it true.

Definition of cheating under tournament rules does not require the advantage to be real, only that you intended to have it.

It doesn't matter if the person you're copying from writes an incorrect answer on a test, you're still cheating when you look at their paper and write down their answer. You don't have to end up with a better grade, you just have to have TRIED to gain an unfair advantage to improve your grade.

Isn't it really only cheating if you're caught?

As a teacher, I give an emphatic and resounding "NO!" Cheating is cheating whether you get caught or not.

As a student who may or may not have "cheated" on his chemistry tests back in high school I claim no harm no foul!

hey, Tom Brady cheated!!!!!!

Bills fan, had to throw that in!!!

hey, Tom Brady cheated!!!!!!

Bills fan, had to throw that in!!!

And all he got was just another ring.

What if I perceive all my pants and shirts and hats and socks to be lucky and give me an advantage? Will I now be forced to go naked to every tournament?! Also say I am doing some (enhanced dice rolling) you call the TO over and I change how I am rolling say I stop making all the dice hits face up in my hand and yet I continue to be on a hot streak. Do you get the TO involved again? Do you keep claiming that I must be cheating if not with how I am rolling my dice but my shirt I'm wearing? Oh wait I'm not wearing a shirt cuz it's lucky. It must be something then because no one can have that good of rolls.

This is quickly becoming the best thread on the forum!

*Flip table*

What if I perceive all my pants and shirts and hats and socks to be lucky and give me an advantage? Will I now be forced to go naked to every tournament?! Also say I am doing some (enhanced dice rolling) you call the TO over and I change how I am rolling say I stop making all the dice hits face up in my hand and yet I continue to be on a hot streak. Do you get the TO involved again? Do you keep claiming that I must be cheating if not with how I am rolling my dice but my shirt I'm wearing? Oh wait I'm not wearing a shirt cuz it's lucky. It must be something then because no one can have that good of rolls.

As for dice, if you're rolling your dice in a way that you believe is influencing the roll you are cheating, and if you're not rolling your dice in a way that you think alters the results then you're not cheating. It's not a difficult concept: If you're doing anything that you believe is giving you an advantage over your opponent, and it's not covered by the rules then you are cheating.

Again, no actual advantage needs to occur. For example lucky hats. We all know that they do not confer any actual advantage so realistically no one would ever call the to become no one would believe that their opponent actually believed in the luck of the hat, but if you were somehow psychic playing a psychic and could read his soul and know that he believed in the power of the hat then sure. You can call a to.

What if I perceive all my pants and shirts and hats and socks to be lucky and give me an advantage? Will I now be forced to go naked to every tournament?! Also say I am doing some (enhanced dice rolling) you call the TO over and I change how I am rolling say I stop making all the dice hits face up in my hand and yet I continue to be on a hot streak. Do you get the TO involved again? Do you keep claiming that I must be cheating if not with how I am rolling my dice but my shirt I'm wearing? Oh wait I'm not wearing a shirt cuz it's lucky. It must be something then because no one can have that good of rolls.

If you're the kind of person who earnestly believes that the way you dress can change your die results, then yes you could be cheating via your attire.

As for dice, if you're rolling your dice in a way that you believe is influencing the roll you are cheating, and if you're not rolling your dice in a way that you think alters the results then you're not cheating. It's not a difficult concept: If you're doing anything that you believe is giving you an advantage over your opponent, and it's not covered by the rules then you are cheating.

Again, no actual advantage needs to occur. For example lucky hats. We all know that they do not confer any actual advantage so realistically no one would ever call the to become no one would believe that their opponent actually believed in the luck of the hat, but if you were somehow psychic playing a psychic and could read his soul and know that he believed in the power of the hat then sure. You can call a to.

What if I perceive all my pants and shirts and hats and socks to be lucky and give me an advantage? Will I now be forced to go naked to every tournament?! Also say I am doing some (enhanced dice rolling) you call the TO over and I change how I am rolling say I stop making all the dice hits face up in my hand and yet I continue to be on a hot streak. Do you get the TO involved again? Do you keep claiming that I must be cheating if not with how I am rolling my dice but my shirt I'm wearing? Oh wait I'm not wearing a shirt cuz it's lucky. It must be something then because no one can have that good of rolls.

If you're the kind of person who earnestly believes that the way you dress can change your die results, then yes you could be cheating via your attire.

As for dice, if you're rolling your dice in a way that you believe is influencing the roll you are cheating, and if you're not rolling your dice in a way that you think alters the results then you're not cheating. It's not a difficult concept: If you're doing anything that you believe is giving you an advantage over your opponent, and it's not covered by the rules then you are cheating.

Again, no actual advantage needs to occur. For example lucky hats. We all know that they do not confer any actual advantage so realistically no one would ever call the to become no one would believe that their opponent actually believed in the luck of the hat, but if you were somehow psychic playing a psychic and could read his soul and know that he believed in the power of the hat then sure. You can call a to.

So the conclusion is:

Just trust people to dress however they want, roll however they want and we'll all get along!

Only took 16 pages to get there.

What if I perceive all my pants and shirts and hats and socks to be lucky and give me an advantage? Will I now be forced to go naked to every tournament?! Also say I am doing some (enhanced dice rolling) you call the TO over and I change how I am rolling say I stop making all the dice hits face up in my hand and yet I continue to be on a hot streak. Do you get the TO involved again? Do you keep claiming that I must be cheating if not with how I am rolling my dice but my shirt I'm wearing? Oh wait I'm not wearing a shirt cuz it's lucky. It must be something then because no one can have that good of rolls.

If you're the kind of person who earnestly believes that the way you dress can change your die results, then yes you could be cheating via your attire.

As for dice, if you're rolling your dice in a way that you believe is influencing the roll you are cheating, and if you're not rolling your dice in a way that you think alters the results then you're not cheating. It's not a difficult concept: If you're doing anything that you believe is giving you an advantage over your opponent, and it's not covered by the rules then you are cheating.

Again, no actual advantage needs to occur. For example lucky hats. We all know that they do not confer any actual advantage so realistically no one would ever call the to become no one would believe that their opponent actually believed in the luck of the hat, but if you were somehow psychic playing a psychic and could read his soul and know that he believed in the power of the hat then sure. You can call a to.

So the conclusion is:Just trust people to dress however they want, roll however they want and we'll all get along!

Only took 16 pages to get there.

That is until they tell you they are wearing rabbits foot underwear

What if I perceive all my pants and shirts and hats and socks to be lucky and give me an advantage? Will I now be forced to go naked to every tournament?! Also say I am doing some (enhanced dice rolling) you call the TO over and I change how I am rolling say I stop making all the dice hits face up in my hand and yet I continue to be on a hot streak. Do you get the TO involved again? Do you keep claiming that I must be cheating if not with how I am rolling my dice but my shirt I'm wearing? Oh wait I'm not wearing a shirt cuz it's lucky. It must be something then because no one can have that good of rolls.

If you're the kind of person who earnestly believes that the way you dress can change your die results, then yes you could be cheating via your attire.

As for dice, if you're rolling your dice in a way that you believe is influencing the roll you are cheating, and if you're not rolling your dice in a way that you think alters the results then you're not cheating. It's not a difficult concept: If you're doing anything that you believe is giving you an advantage over your opponent, and it's not covered by the rules then you are cheating.

Again, no actual advantage needs to occur. For example lucky hats. We all know that they do not confer any actual advantage so realistically no one would ever call the to become no one would believe that their opponent actually believed in the luck of the hat, but if you were somehow psychic playing a psychic and could read his soul and know that he believed in the power of the hat then sure. You can call a to.

So your saying that 2 people both roll their dice exactly the same but 1 believes he's influencing his dice and the other is not. The person believing he's influencing his dice is cheating even tho it's the exact same roll as the person next to him?

you´re

You cannot combine your statement that "nobody can influence the dice so therefore it is no cheating" and base your argument on the theory that "two persons can roll their dice exactly the same way" These are mutually exclusive "theoretical worlds"

Besides this, there is at least something like respect for your enemy. If someone manage to influence the dice and get one additional hit out of 1000 rolls, that´s cheating. And if this doesn´t work, at least the attempt is cheating too, and even if someone disagrees here, it is a disrespect simulating you are figthing with the same rules but using additional methods (which work at least in the head of the "cheater"). At every point of view this is wrong.

So now our examples have gotten to the point of psychic vs psychic match ups!

What if I perceive all my pants and shirts and hats and socks to be lucky and give me an advantage? Will I now be forced to go naked to every tournament?! Also say I am doing some (enhanced dice rolling) you call the TO over and I change how I am rolling say I stop making all the dice hits face up in my hand and yet I continue to be on a hot streak. Do you get the TO involved again? Do you keep claiming that I must be cheating if not with how I am rolling my dice but my shirt I'm wearing? Oh wait I'm not wearing a shirt cuz it's lucky. It must be something then because no one can have that good of rolls.

If you're the kind of person who earnestly believes that the way you dress can change your die results, then yes you could be cheating via your attire.

As for dice, if you're rolling your dice in a way that you believe is influencing the roll you are cheating, and if you're not rolling your dice in a way that you think alters the results then you're not cheating. It's not a difficult concept: If you're doing anything that you believe is giving you an advantage over your opponent, and it's not covered by the rules then you are cheating.

Again, no actual advantage needs to occur. For example lucky hats. We all know that they do not confer any actual advantage so realistically no one would ever call the to become no one would believe that their opponent actually believed in the luck of the hat, but if you were somehow psychic playing a psychic and could read his soul and know that he believed in the power of the hat then sure. You can call a to.

So your saying that 2 people both roll their dice exactly the same but 1 believes he's influencing his dice and the other is not. The person believing he's influencing his dice is cheating even tho it's the exact same roll as the person next to him?

you´re

You cannot combine your statement that "nobody can influence the dice so therefore it is no cheating" and base your argument on the theory that "two persons can roll their dice exactly the same way" These are mutually exclusive "theoretical worlds"

Besides this, there is at least something like respect for your enemy. If someone manage to influence the dice and get one additional hit out of 1000 rolls, that´s cheating. And if this doesn´t work, at least the attempt is cheating too, and even if someone disagrees here, it is a disrespect simulating you are figthing with the same rules but using additional methods (which work at least in the head of the "cheater"). At every point of view this is wrong.

Basing off of what was said that "perceived cheating" wether effective or not is cheating I gave an example based on that to determine how his definition of cheating would apply in that scenario. If that's the case then ANY type of perceived advantage is cheating. My height compared to yours, my hand length compared to yours etc. If I believe these are advantages then I am cheating? If that's not the case then at what point are my perceived advantages not counted as cheating?

You know when you're cheating. Sure, I might not be able to call a TO over for it, but you're still a bad person and you should feel bad.

Wait if you're psychic and can read minds isn't that cheating in and of itself? Are psychics not allowed to play these types of games. Really the question we need to be asking ourself is how can we be more inclusive to psychic players...

What if I perceive all my pants and shirts and hats and socks to be lucky and give me an advantage? Will I now be forced to go naked to every tournament?! Also say I am doing some (enhanced dice rolling) you call the TO over and I change how I am rolling say I stop making all the dice hits face up in my hand and yet I continue to be on a hot streak. Do you get the TO involved again? Do you keep claiming that I must be cheating if not with how I am rolling my dice but my shirt I'm wearing? Oh wait I'm not wearing a shirt cuz it's lucky. It must be something then because no one can have that good of rolls.

If you're the kind of person who earnestly believes that the way you dress can change your die results, then yes you could be cheating via your attire.

As for dice, if you're rolling your dice in a way that you believe is influencing the roll you are cheating, and if you're not rolling your dice in a way that you think alters the results then you're not cheating. It's not a difficult concept: If you're doing anything that you believe is giving you an advantage over your opponent, and it's not covered by the rules then you are cheating.

Again, no actual advantage needs to occur. For example lucky hats. We all know that they do not confer any actual advantage so realistically no one would ever call the to become no one would believe that their opponent actually believed in the luck of the hat, but if you were somehow psychic playing a psychic and could read his soul and know that he believed in the power of the hat then sure. You can call a to.

So your saying that 2 people both roll their dice exactly the same but 1 believes he's influencing his dice and the other is not. The person believing he's influencing his dice is cheating even tho it's the exact same roll as the person next to him?

you´re

You cannot combine your statement that "nobody can influence the dice so therefore it is no cheating" and base your argument on the theory that "two persons can roll their dice exactly the same way" These are mutually exclusive "theoretical worlds"

Besides this, there is at least something like respect for your enemy. If someone manage to influence the dice and get one additional hit out of 1000 rolls, that´s cheating. And if this doesn´t work, at least the attempt is cheating too, and even if someone disagrees here, it is a disrespect simulating you are figthing with the same rules but using additional methods (which work at least in the head of the "cheater"). At every point of view this is wrong.

Basing off of what was said that "perceived cheating" wether effective or not is cheating I gave an example based on that to determine how his definition of cheating would apply in that scenario. If that's the case then ANY type of perceived advantage is cheating. My height compared to yours, my hand length compared to yours etc. If I believe these are advantages then I am cheating? If that's not the case then at what point are my perceived advantages not counted as cheating?

I like the way you think, and the points of the others which are not same opinion but trying to argument interestingly. To ypur post: Things like height and hand length etc are factors that can also influence in the negative way. So due to your hand length you could make a worse roll than someone with a smaller hand with the "same movement" (in theory). Beside this, in situations where it counts, for example height strentgh etc in some sports, the opponent is aware of your advantages. It´s part of the game, part of the rules.

Wait if you're psychic and can read minds isn't that cheating in and of itself? Are psychics not allowed to play these types of games. Really the question we need to be asking ourself is how can we be more inclusive to psychic players...

Then you should always have a woman with you to confront. No mindreader can survive the exposition to womans thinking processes

What if I perceive all my pants and shirts and hats and socks to be lucky and give me an advantage? Will I now be forced to go naked to every tournament?! Also say I am doing some (enhanced dice rolling) you call the TO over and I change how I am rolling say I stop making all the dice hits face up in my hand and yet I continue to be on a hot streak. Do you get the TO involved again? Do you keep claiming that I must be cheating if not with how I am rolling my dice but my shirt I'm wearing? Oh wait I'm not wearing a shirt cuz it's lucky. It must be something then because no one can have that good of rolls.

If you're the kind of person who earnestly believes that the way you dress can change your die results, then yes you could be cheating via your attire.

As for dice, if you're rolling your dice in a way that you believe is influencing the roll you are cheating, and if you're not rolling your dice in a way that you think alters the results then you're not cheating. It's not a difficult concept: If you're doing anything that you believe is giving you an advantage over your opponent, and it's not covered by the rules then you are cheating.

Again, no actual advantage needs to occur. For example lucky hats. We all know that they do not confer any actual advantage so realistically no one would ever call the to become no one would believe that their opponent actually believed in the luck of the hat, but if you were somehow psychic playing a psychic and could read his soul and know that he believed in the power of the hat then sure. You can call a to.

So your saying that 2 people both roll their dice exactly the same but 1 believes he's influencing his dice and the other is not. The person believing he's influencing his dice is cheating even tho it's the exact same roll as the person next to him?

you´re

You cannot combine your statement that "nobody can influence the dice so therefore it is no cheating" and base your argument on the theory that "two persons can roll their dice exactly the same way" These are mutually exclusive "theoretical worlds"

Besides this, there is at least something like respect for your enemy. If someone manage to influence the dice and get one additional hit out of 1000 rolls, that´s cheating. And if this doesn´t work, at least the attempt is cheating too, and even if someone disagrees here, it is a disrespect simulating you are figthing with the same rules but using additional methods (which work at least in the head of the "cheater"). At every point of view this is wrong.

Basing off of what was said that "perceived cheating" wether effective or not is cheating I gave an example based on that to determine how his definition of cheating would apply in that scenario. If that's the case then ANY type of perceived advantage is cheating. My height compared to yours, my hand length compared to yours etc. If I believe these are advantages then I am cheating? If that's not the case then at what point are my perceived advantages not counted as cheating?

I like the way you think, and the points of the others which are not same opinion but trying to argument interestingly. To ypur post: Things like height and hand length etc are factors that can also influence in the negative way. So due to your hand length you could make a worse roll than someone with a smaller hand with the "same movement" (in theory). Beside this, in situations where it counts, for example height strentgh etc in some sports, the opponent is aware of your advantages. It´s part of the game, part of the rules.

I agree, but the points others brought out was that even if your perceived advantage is not effective it would still constitute cheating. So even if my hand length does affect the rolls in a negative way if I believed my hand was giving me an advantage that would constitute cheating.

I like the way you think, and the points of the others which are not same opinion but trying to argument interestingly. To ypur post: Things like height and hand length etc are factors that can also influence in the negative way. So due to your hand length you could make a worse roll than someone with a smaller hand with the "same movement" (in theory). Beside this, in situations where it counts, for example height strentgh etc in some sports, the opponent is aware of your advantages. It´s part of the game, part of the rules.

Ok, try this scenario:

A player brings his awesome ewok dice tower and offers to have both players use it during the game.

Both players use the dice tower for the game.

If Arnold believes that his dice tower is lucky and that it gives him better rolls, is him using it cheating?

If Bert (the opponent) uses the same tower but doesn't really think it affects anything, her just thinks it looks cool, is him using it cheating?

In any case, with all this stuff about cheating being dependent on people's beliefs... We're gonna need a lie detector at every tournament now!

"Do you truly believe your hat makes you more lucky?

- ... no, no, I swear!

*scribble scribble scribble*

- You lie! Player has been found guilty of cheating! He is immediately disqualified and we shall burn his hat!"

I'm going to be honest. I believe I roll better with my dice on an instinctual level. And that I roll better when not borrowing other people's game pieces.

On a logical level I know this is untrue. But if you threw me on a lie detector and asked me about it I'd be saying I roll better when I'm using my stuff.

Is using my stuff cheating?

I'm going to be honest. I believe I roll better with my dice on an instinctual level. And that I roll better when not borrowing other people's game pieces.

On a logical level I know this is untrue. But if you threw me on a lie detector and asked me about it I'd be saying I roll better when I'm using my stuff.

Is using my stuff cheating?

I always knew you were a filthy cheater.

Into the carbonite you go!