I like the way you think, and the points of the others which are not same opinion but trying to argument interestingly. To ypur post: Things like height and hand length etc are factors that can also influence in the negative way. So due to your hand length you could make a worse roll than someone with a smaller hand with the "same movement" (in theory). Beside this, in situations where it counts, for example height strentgh etc in some sports, the opponent is aware of your advantages. It´s part of the game, part of the rules.

Ok, try this scenario:

A player brings his awesome ewok dice tower and offers to have both players use it during the game.

Both players use the dice tower for the game.

If Arnold believes that his dice tower is lucky and that it gives him better rolls, is him using it cheating?

If Bert (the opponent) uses the same tower but doesn't really think it affects anything, her just thinks it looks cool, is him using it cheating?

In any case, with all this stuff about cheating being dependent on people's beliefs... We're gonna need a lie detector at every tournament now!

"Do you truly believe your hat makes you more lucky?

- ... no, no, I swear!

*scribble scribble scribble*

- You lie! Player has been found guilty of cheating! He is immediately disqualified and we shall burn his hat!"

What if I perceive all my pants and shirts and hats and socks to be lucky and give me an advantage? Will I now be forced to go naked to every tournament?! Also say I am doing some (enhanced dice rolling) you call the TO over and I change how I am rolling say I stop making all the dice hits face up in my hand and yet I continue to be on a hot streak. Do you get the TO involved again? Do you keep claiming that I must be cheating if not with how I am rolling my dice but my shirt I'm wearing? Oh wait I'm not wearing a shirt cuz it's lucky. It must be something then because no one can have that good of rolls.

If you're the kind of person who earnestly believes that the way you dress can change your die results, then yes you could be cheating via your attire.

As for dice, if you're rolling your dice in a way that you believe is influencing the roll you are cheating, and if you're not rolling your dice in a way that you think alters the results then you're not cheating. It's not a difficult concept: If you're doing anything that you believe is giving you an advantage over your opponent, and it's not covered by the rules then you are cheating.

Again, no actual advantage needs to occur. For example lucky hats. We all know that they do not confer any actual advantage so realistically no one would ever call the to become no one would believe that their opponent actually believed in the luck of the hat, but if you were somehow psychic playing a psychic and could read his soul and know that he believed in the power of the hat then sure. You can call a to.

So your saying that 2 people both roll their dice exactly the same but 1 believes he's influencing his dice and the other is not. The person believing he's influencing his dice is cheating even tho it's the exact same roll as the person next to him?

you´re

You cannot combine your statement that "nobody can influence the dice so therefore it is no cheating" and base your argument on the theory that "two persons can roll their dice exactly the same way" These are mutually exclusive "theoretical worlds"

Besides this, there is at least something like respect for your enemy. If someone manage to influence the dice and get one additional hit out of 1000 rolls, that´s cheating. And if this doesn´t work, at least the attempt is cheating too, and even if someone disagrees here, it is a disrespect simulating you are figthing with the same rules but using additional methods (which work at least in the head of the "cheater"). At every point of view this is wrong.

Basing off of what was said that "perceived cheating" wether effective or not is cheating I gave an example based on that to determine how his definition of cheating would apply in that scenario. If that's the case then ANY type of perceived advantage is cheating. My height compared to yours, my hand length compared to yours etc. If I believe these are advantages then I am cheating? If that's not the case then at what point are my perceived advantages not counted as cheating?

I like the way you think, and the points of the others which are not same opinion but trying to argument interestingly. To ypur post: Things like height and hand length etc are factors that can also influence in the negative way. So due to your hand length you could make a worse roll than someone with a smaller hand with the "same movement" (in theory). Beside this, in situations where it counts, for example height strentgh etc in some sports, the opponent is aware of your advantages. It´s part of the game, part of the rules.

I agree, but the points others brought out was that even if your perceived advantage is not effective it would still constitute cheating. So even if my hand length does affect the rolls in a negative way if I believed my hand was giving me an advantage that would constitute cheating.

Yes, here are some parallel things/discussions going on which are mixed up from time to time. Also the arguments for other statements get mixed up sometimes.

To sum up (maybe I have forgotten something):

A: Is cheating possible? Yes/No

B: Is the attempt of cheating, really cheating (even if it is not working)? (Collides with A)

C: If you think your doings are cheating, is it cheating? (Collides with A)

D: (similar to C): If you think it is cheating, is it cheating or not? If not, a disrespect? (Collision/Exclusive with A)

I like the way you think, and the points of the others which are not same opinion but trying to argument interestingly. To ypur post: Things like height and hand length etc are factors that can also influence in the negative way. So due to your hand length you could make a worse roll than someone with a smaller hand with the "same movement" (in theory). Beside this, in situations where it counts, for example height strentgh etc in some sports, the opponent is aware of your advantages. It´s part of the game, part of the rules.

Ok, try this scenario:

A player brings his awesome ewok dice tower and offers to have both players use it during the game.

Both players use the dice tower for the game.

If Arnold believes that his dice tower is lucky and that it gives him better rolls, is him using it cheating?

If Bert (the opponent) uses the same tower but doesn't really think it affects anything, her just thinks it looks cool, is him using it cheating?

...

In this case nobody is cheating. Arnold cannot think he is cheating because he is not doing anything differently. It´s the same example with the lucky hat. Like I posted above, the two theoretical worlds are mutually exclusive.

If the good folks at casinos allow you to arrange your dice in a particular manner before you throw them I highly doubt that any dice-throwing technique would give any edge in a game of x-wing.

Wait if you're psychic and can read minds isn't that cheating in and of itself? Are psychics not allowed to play these types of games. Really the question we need to be asking ourself is how can we be more inclusive to psychic players...

Ah! But I anticipated this and mentioned that the opponent was ALSO psychic.

Wait if you're psychic and can read minds isn't that cheating in and of itself? Are psychics not allowed to play these types of games. Really the question we need to be asking ourself is how can we be more inclusive to psychic players...

Ah! But I anticipated this and mentioned that the opponent was ALSO psychic.

So, are they both cheating?

What if I perceive all my pants and shirts and hats and socks to be lucky and give me an advantage? Will I now be forced to go naked to every tournament?! Also say I am doing some (enhanced dice rolling) you call the TO over and I change how I am rolling say I stop making all the dice hits face up in my hand and yet I continue to be on a hot streak. Do you get the TO involved again? Do you keep claiming that I must be cheating if not with how I am rolling my dice but my shirt I'm wearing? Oh wait I'm not wearing a shirt cuz it's lucky. It must be something then because no one can have that good of rolls.

If you're the kind of person who earnestly believes that the way you dress can change your die results, then yes you could be cheating via your attire.

As for dice, if you're rolling your dice in a way that you believe is influencing the roll you are cheating, and if you're not rolling your dice in a way that you think alters the results then you're not cheating. It's not a difficult concept: If you're doing anything that you believe is giving you an advantage over your opponent, and it's not covered by the rules then you are cheating.

Again, no actual advantage needs to occur. For example lucky hats. We all know that they do not confer any actual advantage so realistically no one would ever call the to become no one would believe that their opponent actually believed in the luck of the hat, but if you were somehow psychic playing a psychic and could read his soul and know that he believed in the power of the hat then sure. You can call a to.

So your saying that 2 people both roll their dice exactly the same but 1 believes he's influencing his dice and the other is not. The person believing he's influencing his dice is cheating even tho it's the exact same roll as the person next to him? Or if I believe my skills as a genius tactician from all the books I've read gives me an advantage over my opponent who I can tell hasn't read those books. So now wether or not reading those books has an outcome on the end result I am now a cheater because of my perceived influence of those books on my game?

Yes, he's cheating because he believes that his dice rolling method skews the randomness in his favor.

Now his opponent, on the other hand, is not doing it intentionally so until it is pointed out to him that what he is doing is illegal no he is not cheating. FFG uses a definition of cheating that requires intent and the second player has none.

You would know this if you bothered to read the ffg floor rules. Here's a link that includes some.

https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/warhammer-40k-conquest/support/faq-updates/WHK_Tournament_Rules.pdf

Wait if you're psychic and can read minds isn't that cheating in and of itself? Are psychics not allowed to play these types of games. Really the question we need to be asking ourself is how can we be more inclusive to psychic players...

Ah! But I anticipated this and mentioned that the opponent was ALSO psychic.

So, are they both cheating?

If the good folks at casinos allow you to arrange your dice in a particular manner before you throw them I highly doubt that any dice-throwing technique would give any edge in a game of x-wing.

The good folks at casinos also force you to throw your dice off the wall of the table so that they hit devices specially made to ensure that any fancy rolling tricks you tried won't work. This was like five pages ago.

Wait if you're psychic and can read minds isn't that cheating in and of itself? Are psychics not allowed to play these types of games. Really the question we need to be asking ourself is how can we be more inclusive to psychic players...

Ah! But I anticipated this and mentioned that the opponent was ALSO psychic.

If you anticipated I would say that then are you psychic?!?!?!

Wait if you're psychic and can read minds isn't that cheating in and of itself? Are psychics not allowed to play these types of games. Really the question we need to be asking ourself is how can we be more inclusive to psychic players...

Ah! But I anticipated this and mentioned that the opponent was ALSO psychic.

If you anticipated I would say that then are you psychic?!?!?!

No. That would be cheating.

"If a player does a thing that he thinks is giving him an statistical advantage is it cheating if his opponent is also doing it unwittingly?"

Yes, he's cheating because he believes that his dice rolling method skews the randomness in his favor.

Now his opponent, on the other hand, is not doing it intentionally so until it is pointed out to him that what he is doing is illegal no he is not cheating. FFG uses a definition of cheating that requires intent and the second player has none.

You would know this if you bothered to read the ffg floor rules. Here's a link that includes some.

https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/warhammer-40k-conquest/support/faq-updates/WHK_Tournament_Rules.pdf

I get your theoretical / philosophical point that cheating requires intent to cheat.

How would you go about enforcing this?

If you, as either a player or TO, see someone rolling dice a funny way, what would you do?

Ask them if they're trying to cheat?

If they say yes, then ask them to roll differently.

If they say no, do nothing?

So, basically...

Just trust people not to cheat and we'll all get along?

If a witch put a curse on me that made me roll poorly, would I be considered cheating? After all, I would technically be using magic to alter my dice rolling.

Ok so who wants to place bets on at what page this thread gets locked?

If a witch put a curse on me that made me roll poorly, would I be considered cheating? After all, I would technically be using magic to alter my dice rolling.

Supposedly, it depends if you believe in witchcraft!

That said, I'm going back to prepping my potion for Regionals

If a witch put a curse on me that made me roll poorly, would I be considered cheating? After all, I would technically be using magic to alter my dice rolling.

In this scenario you would also have to believe that rolling poorly gives you an advantage.

If a witch put a curse on me that made me roll poorly, would I be considered cheating? After all, I would technically be using magic to alter my dice rolling.

In this scenario you would also have to believe that rolling poorly gives you an advantage.

Ah, but sometimes it does!

If someone with Gunner attacks me and only rolls 1 hit, I often want to take that hit rather than let them attack me a second time

Although, in that case "rolling poorly" could be defined as rolling what you don't want, evades in this case...

PS: You still haven't told me how you expect a TO to judge what someone actually believes?

If a witch put a curse on me that made me roll poorly, would I be considered cheating? After all, I would technically be using magic to alter my dice rolling.

In this scenario you would also have to believe that rolling poorly gives you an advantage.

Ah, but sometimes it does!

If someone with Gunner attacks me and only rolls 1 hit, I often want to take that hit rather than let them attack me a second time

Although, in that case "rolling poorly" could be defined as rolling what you don't want, evades in this case...

PS: You still haven't told me how you expect a TO to judge what someone actually believes?

That brings up a good point... If someone were cheating using dice, wouldn't they have to reverse engineer the way they are throwing or placing dice when gunner is present? I mean if they had found a way to roll hits and evades wouldn't they now have to find a way of also rolling blanks? Not to mention you should notice a difference in their throws or placing a of dice. I guess what this means is gunner is an auto include now if your that worried about dice cheating.

"If a player does a thing that he thinks is giving him an statistical advantage is it cheating if his opponent is also doing it unwittingly?"

Yes, he's cheating because he believes that his dice rolling method skews the randomness in his favor.

Now his opponent, on the other hand, is not doing it intentionally so until it is pointed out to him that what he is doing is illegal no he is not cheating. FFG uses a definition of cheating that requires intent and the second player has none.

You would know this if you bothered to read the ffg floor rules. Here's a link that includes some.https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/warhammer-40k-conquest/support/faq-updates/WHK_Tournament_Rules.pdf

I get your theoretical / philosophical point that cheating requires intent to cheat.

How would you go about enforcing this?

If you, as either a player or TO, see someone rolling dice a funny way, what would you do?

Ask them if they're trying to cheat?

If they say yes, then ask them to roll differently.

If they say no, do nothing?

So, basically...

Just trust people not to cheat and we'll all get along?

Except you would be a fool to trust everyone, some people will cheat if they think they can get away with it that's just human nature.

Nice video. But that won't satisfy naysayers. To quote the man in video " Yeah ... X-Winger!"

How you folks feel about the FFG translucent dice, since most of them have visible air bubbles?

The weight distribution is slightly off but is it enough to warrant them not legal for tourney play?

No normal die that you buy is 100% weighted. Some bubbles don't really matter.

About the suspicious shaking:

The thing is if he refuces to change it he at least expects something from doing it. Hard to say if/when its cheating but its also not looking like fair play and generating a good atmosphere.

How you folks feel about the FFG translucent dice, since most of them have visible air bubbles?

The weight distribution is slightly off but is it enough to warrant them not legal for tourney play?

I'd rather just clamp my hands over my ears, close my eyes, start screaming, and pretend that they and regular dice are perfect and roll 100% randomly and that it isn't possible to determine which ones are better at rolling positive results and hand pick those.

...18 pages in.

All I've learned is that there are a lot of people on this forum that I'd rather not play against.

I really don't get it. Why even bother playing if you cheat? I mean... Will one feel cooler or satisfied if he wins by cheating? He could just as well declare himself a winner, pack up and give himself a reward.

I play games for fun and I really get upset when someone tries to cheat or exploit. If it's casual play I just tell them to stop. He can just roll dice like a normal person instead of doing some voodoo that raises concerns about fair play. If it's tournament I just ask them to stop as first warning, but if I see them do it again I will call the judge and tell him how I see it, asking him to look at his hands for the rest of the match if necessary.

I didn't drive up there to get worked up by some buttface who has to win so hard he has to cheat and exploit - I play it for fun, and if he ruins it by such behaviour I don't want to play anymore. We all have limited time to spend on our hobbies and I don't think I want such people to affect how I enjoy it.