I guess all sports teams must be cheats now too since before their games they huddle up and ask god to grant them victory. Does that constitute trying to change an outcome even if they end up losing? Are they cheats too? Just some questions to consider if we are going to follow along that logic.

No because the supernatural by definition does not exist in nature and so can't effect the outcome of events that occur in nature.

Let's not start judging other's religion here. That's not cool.

I didn't mention religion I said supernatural which covers alot more than religion, now if you can prove non natural phenomena can influence nature I'll arrange for your Nobel medal just make the speech a good one okay.

I guess all sports teams must be cheats now too since before their games they huddle up and ask god to grant them victory. Does that constitute trying to change an outcome even if they end up losing? Are they cheats too? Just some questions to consider if we are going to follow along that logic.

No because the supernatural by definition does not exist in nature and so can't effect the outcome of events that occur in nature.

There are a few questions that people need to ask themselves:

Is cheating wrong?

Is trying to cheat wrong?

Is attempting to manipulate the outcome of an event that is meant to be random an effort to cheat?

I can't imagine that anyone would say no to any of those questions. So, the only thing left at issue if why certain attempts at manipulating the outcome of a random event are acceptable. So, more questions:

Is adding weight to dice in order to roll more hits an attempt to cheat?

Is requesting that the all powerful creator of the universe 'push' the dice in order to roll more hits an attempt to cheat?

Is rolling the dice in a practiced manner in order to roll more hits an attempt to cheat?

Is doing _________ in order to roll more hits an attempt to cheat?

For each question, the answer has to be yes. Doing anything that you believe will reduce the ramdomness of a die roll is an attempt to cheat. It really is that simple. The fact that your prayers to a man in the clouds and rubbing your rabbits foot will not make a difference does not mean that you are not trying to cheat the other player by reducing randomness - it only means that you are not particularly bright.

My guess is that people criticize this conclusion because attempts to control the outcome of a competition by invoking luck and cosmic forces are so common. The other likely explanation is that it is criticized because the invocation of things like Allah and unwashed underwear do not have a demonstrable effect on the outcome of anything. But, remember that an action taken by an individual who honestly believes that it will produce a certain result is an attempt to acheive that result no matter how misguided the action is.

And again, Don't be the guy that equates a game with harming someone. Stop taking this game so seriously. You're being That Guy. The one nobody wants to play with.

Not that it has anything to do with the simple conclusion that an attempt makes someone culpable, but when someone does take a game seriously, cheating does harm them. You can try to pretend that examples using the same logic are somehow different, but then you might as well admit there is no logic to your conclusion. Just like someone stealing the newspaper out of you driveway. Is it a big deal? No. Is it still stealing? Of course. I don't know why it is giving you trouble, but an attempt to break the rules doesn't have to have life altering consequences for it to be wrong.

I guess all sports teams must be cheats now too since before their games they huddle up and ask god to grant them victory. Does that constitute trying to change an outcome even if they end up losing? Are they cheats too? Just some questions to consider if we are going to follow along that logic.

And again, Don't be the guy that equates a game with harming someone. Stop taking this game so seriously. You're being That Guy. The one nobody wants to play with.

I take the game just as seriously as I want - which is not very serious. What I do take seriously is people digging into the poorly thought out conclusions.

Not that it has anything to do with the simple conclusion that an attempt makes someone culpable, but when someone does take a game seriously, cheating does harm them. Just like someone stealing the newspaper out of you driveway. Is it a big deal? No. Is it still stealing? Of course. I don't know why it is giving you trouble, but an attempt to break the rules doesn't have to have life altering consequences for it to be wrong.

No. But believing that cheating with the dice is possible damages the gaming community far more.

I don't care about the morality of trying an impossible task. I care that every time an accusation like this is leveled at someone it builds an isolationist communtiy that isolates the "cheater" despite the fact he's harmless. I care that 99% of the time that cheater is just a guy having a good day with the dice and somebody is sore over losing. I care that this kind of nonsense destroys friendships. And encouraging it is worse than trying to learn to cheat with the dice.

The issue isn't cheating with dice (which certainly is possible) because everyone admits that that is wrong - the issue is trying to cheat.

I care that this kind of nonsense destroys friendships. And encouraging it is worse than trying to learn to cheat with the dice.

I care that this kind of nonsense destroys friendships. And encouraging it is worse than trying to learn to cheat with the dice.

It is not nonsense. It is a perfectly reasonable conclusion. Trying to manipulate a game component that is meant to be random is wrong. If that destroys a friendship because the friend is too simple to understand that, then that friend was not worth having.

People don't get better if their friends abandom them over petty crap. But accusing someone of cheating who isn't. That is nonsense. And it's what this kind of behavior, claiming that any attempt to manipulate the dice is cheating, does.

...Maybe we should evaluate whether or not arguing about this is a good use of our time?

It's obvious that there are 2-3 camps here, and no one will change each others mind.

Whether or not you consider praying cheating for any reason should be irrelevant. If you call a TO over and are like: "Hey, he's praying." (or is wearing a lucky sock) I don't think the TO is going to be upset with them.

Also, if dice manipulation isn't 100% confirmed for 6 sided dice (not saying if it's fact or fiction, I don't really care either way) and has a fair share of skeptics along with some people convinced, means that if it is a real thing than it's fairly tricky to do.

If it's hard to manipulate dice with 6 sides and evenly distributed weight (not to mention casino dice are usually precision), it's probably even harder to do with 8 sided dice that are kind of wonky.

If it's even harder to do with 8 sided dice, than this person manipulating them would have to work super hard, at least a couple hundred hours, to learn that skill.

If they've learned how to do this, it's obvious that they can turn it on/off while still rolling similarly (after all, simply changing a little bit of the starting variable will change the end result a lot) than you won't be able to prove it when a TO comes over to check.

So, if someone beats you because they manipulated Star Wars X-Wing dice, maybe you should let them have it. I think you've won at life, at that point.

That's my two cents.

All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.

Edmund Burke

That is nonsense. And it's what this kind of behavior, claiming that any attempt to manipulate the dice is cheating, does.

Any attempt to manipulate the dice is NOT NECESSARILY cheating.

Any attempt to manipulate the dice is ALWAYS AN ATTEMPT TO cheat. Attempting to cheat, in a game where inexact measurements, dice rolling, and other aspects can be secretly manipulated for an unfair advantage, IS JUST AS BAD AS CHEATING.

Attempting to cheat at a table top game is not 'petty crap' - it is pathetic, devisive behavior and is a perfectly valid reason for excluding someone from a social group if that person refuses to correct that behavior.

That is nonsense. And it's what this kind of behavior, claiming that any attempt to manipulate the dice is cheating, does.

Stop doing that. It is easy to make an argument when you change what other people are saying in order to make your response correct.

Any attempt to manipulate the dice is NOT NECESSARILY cheating.

Any attempt to manipulate the dice is ALWAYS AN ATTEMPT TO cheat. Attempting to cheat, in a game where inexact measurements, dice rolling, and other aspects can be secretly manipulated for an unfair advantage, IS JUST AS BAD AS CHEATING.

Attempting to cheat at a table top game is not 'petty crap' - it is pathetic, devisive behavior and is a perfectly valid reason for excluding someone from a social group if that person refuses to correct that behavior.

The problem is everyone's definition of cheating is different. Therefore the only rules we have to go on are the rules FFG has given us to abide by so that there is somewhat of a standard. The rules do not say you cannot place your dice in your hand with all hits facing up therefore your not breaking any rules. If someone thinks it's unfair or cheating then they are more than welcome to do the same if it's such a big deal. But as of right now there is nothing in the rules that say how you can or can't roll, you just have to roll, end of story. If you would like FFG to add a ruling about this then you or anyone else will need to convince FFG that 1.) it's a big problem in the community and the biggest hurdle 2.) that you can consistently get better results by placing the dice in your hand a certain way and rolling a certain way. Until those things are done FFG will not do anything. Until then we might want to lighten up on what's considered cheating on this game.

That is nonsense. And it's what this kind of behavior, claiming that any attempt to manipulate the dice is cheating, does.

Stop doing that. It is easy to make an argument when you change what other people are saying in order to make your response correct.

Any attempt to manipulate the dice is NOT NECESSARILY cheating.

Any attempt to manipulate the dice is ALWAYS AN ATTEMPT TO cheat. Attempting to cheat, in a game where inexact measurements, dice rolling, and other aspects can be secretly manipulated for an unfair advantage, IS JUST AS BAD AS CHEATING.

Attempting to cheat at a table top game is not 'petty crap' - it is pathetic, devisive behavior and is a perfectly valid reason for excluding someone from a social group if that person refuses to correct that behavior.

The problem is everyone's definition of cheating is different. Therefore the only rules we have to go on are the rules FFG has given us to abide by so that there is somewhat of a standard. The rules do not say you cannot place your dice in your hand with all hits facing up therefore your not breaking any rules. If someone thinks it's unfair or cheating then they are more than welcome to do the same if it's such a big deal. But as of right now there is nothing in the rules that say how you can or can't roll, you just have to roll, end of story. If you would like FFG to add a ruling about this then you or anyone else will need to convince FFG that 1.) it's a big problem in the community and the biggest hurdle 2.) that you can consistently get better results by placing the dice in your hand a certain way and rolling a certain way. Until those things are done FFG will not do anything. Until then we might want to lighten up on what's considered cheating on this game.

So your answer is the slippery slope, someones trying to cheat so that means i can try to cheat aswell.

That is nonsense. And it's what this kind of behavior, claiming that any attempt to manipulate the dice is cheating, does.

Stop doing that. It is easy to make an argument when you change what other people are saying in order to make your response correct.

Any attempt to manipulate the dice is NOT NECESSARILY cheating.

Any attempt to manipulate the dice is ALWAYS AN ATTEMPT TO cheat. Attempting to cheat, in a game where inexact measurements, dice rolling, and other aspects can be secretly manipulated for an unfair advantage, IS JUST AS BAD AS CHEATING.

Attempting to cheat at a table top game is not 'petty crap' - it is pathetic, devisive behavior and is a perfectly valid reason for excluding someone from a social group if that person refuses to correct that behavior.

The problem is everyone's definition of cheating is different. Therefore the only rules we have to go on are the rules FFG has given us to abide by so that there is somewhat of a standard. The rules do not say you cannot place your dice in your hand with all hits facing up therefore your not breaking any rules. If someone thinks it's unfair or cheating then they are more than welcome to do the same if it's such a big deal. But as of right now there is nothing in the rules that say how you can or can't roll, you just have to roll, end of story. If you would like FFG to add a ruling about this then you or anyone else will need to convince FFG that 1.) it's a big problem in the community and the biggest hurdle 2.) that you can consistently get better results by placing the dice in your hand a certain way and rolling a certain way. Until those things are done FFG will not do anything. Until then we might want to lighten up on what's considered cheating on this game.

So your answer is the slippery slope, someones trying to cheat so that means i can try to cheat aswell.

Something to consider: I'm an average joe and I just started playing. I never shake my dice I just pick them up and drop them and they bounce around and it seems every time I get blanks and maybe 1 hit or 2 hits. After awhile I realize maybe I should start shaking my dice up and then dropping them. Low and behold my dice results start improving, now by blank results are far less. I have found a way to improve my results! But that's cheating? Also someone who has played this game a bunch and practices movements at home so that he knows how far each will take him, compared to someone who doesn't practice and constantly runs into things. Can you consider the player with more time cheating because he's found the time to practice more often and improve his results? If someone finds by placing their hits face up and then rolling they get better results I don't see how that's any different then practicing movements at home and getting better results. Both can be done by either player if they so choose.

No, just that everyone's definition is different. For instance, I play per the rules, if the rules say to roll I assume that means roll however the heck I want, if they wanted me to roll a certain way they would have put it in the rules. Instead they gave that leeway to roll how you want. If someone wants to place their dice a certain way I would have no problem and I don't consider it cheating or trying to cheat. Cheating in my book is giving oneself an unfair advantage over someone else. If the other person can flip all their dice to hits and then roll and choose not to then that's not my fault. Same is true if they only decide to release their dice when it's 6 inches above the mat, I can do the same so there is no unfair advantage. Now if we're talking about trick dice then that's different but ffg has standardized many things to keep a level playing field. So basically, if you can do it and I can do it and there's no rule against it, then I don't consider it cheating.

The response will be:

So dice cheating is ok?

And I could smash your ships with a hammer since there's no rule against it, and it's fair since you can do it too!

And the reply is:

Dice cheating doesn't actually have any impact, so it's not cheating.

Regarding the hammer... you're an idiot.

And then:

Dice cheating clearly works! Youtube videos!

We need a zero-tolerance policy!

...

...

Around and around we go!

No, just that everyone's definition is different. For instance, I play per the rules, if the rules say to roll I assume that means roll however the heck I want, if they wanted me to roll a certain way they would have put it in the rules. Instead they gave that leeway to roll how you want. If someone wants to place their dice a certain way I would have no problem and I don't consider it cheating or trying to cheat. Cheating in my book is giving oneself an unfair advantage over someone else. If the other person can flip all their dice to hits and then roll and choose not to then that's not my fault. Same is true if they only decide to release their dice when it's 6 inches above the mat, I can do the same so there is no unfair advantage. Now if we're talking about trick dice then that's different but ffg has standardized many things to keep a level playing field. So basically, if you can do it and I can do it and there's no rule against it, then I don't consider it cheating.

The response will be:

So dice cheating is ok?

And I could smash your ships with a hammer since there's no rule against it, and it's fair since you can do it too!

And the reply is:

Dice cheating doesn't actually have any impact, so it's not cheating.

Regarding the hammer... your an idiot.

And then:

Dice cheating clearly works! Youtube videos!

We need a zero-tolerance policy!

...

...

Around and around we go!

True, for every positive there is a negative I guess. I guess that's mainly what I was trying to point out is everyone's definition of cheating is different so that's why the question about if such and such is cheating is causing so much trouble. That's why I say just refer to the rules. If they really want FFG to say roll from this height, with this speed and rotation of your wrist and shake for this many seconds then they are just asking for a messed up game haha.

Guys the definition of cheating only requires the affected party to perceive the advantage. Cheating in a competitive game is wrong.

That means that, yes, your magic hat is cheating only if you really and truly believe it has an outcome on the game.

How is any of this testable and enforceable? You can not test and say this hat or this prayer is helping your dice rolls. You also can't say that someone looking at there dice and then rolling is helping wither. Quit being bitter about there good rolls...

True, for every positive there is a negative I guess. I guess that's mainly what I was trying to point out is everyone's definition of cheating is different so that's why the question about if such and such is cheating is causing so much trouble. That's why I say just refer to the rules. If they really want FFG to say roll from this height, with this speed and rotation of your wrist and shake for this many seconds then they are just asking for a messed up game haha.

I agree. I'm in the dice-cheating is bogus camp myself.

And, even if it did somehow work, there's no way to tell if the person is just rolling the way they normally do, or if they're superstitious about setting their dice crit-side up before rolling, or if they're actually trying to cheat/cheating, so it's always going to be a decision based on what you think the person's intention is.

AtomicFryingPan's post echoes my thoughts.

Guys the definition of cheating only requires the affected party to perceive the advantage. Cheating in a competitive game is wrong.

That means that, yes, your magic hat is cheating only if you really and truly believe it has an outcome on the game.

So... If I really and truly believe that your hat is affecting your dice rolls, can I accuse you of cheating?

Guys the definition of cheating only requires the affected party to perceive the advantage. Cheating in a competitive game is wrong.

That means that, yes, your magic hat is cheating only if you really and truly believe it has an outcome on the game.

When it comes to whether or not someone attempted to cheat, that is when perception and intent become relevant.

That is nonsense. And it's what this kind of behavior, claiming that any attempt to manipulate the dice is cheating, does.

Stop doing that. It is easy to make an argument when you change what other people are saying in order to make your response correct.

Any attempt to manipulate the dice is NOT NECESSARILY cheating.

Any attempt to manipulate the dice is ALWAYS AN ATTEMPT TO cheat. Attempting to cheat, in a game where inexact measurements, dice rolling, and other aspects can be secretly manipulated for an unfair advantage, IS JUST AS BAD AS CHEATING.

Attempting to cheat at a table top game is not 'petty crap' - it is pathetic, devisive behavior and is a perfectly valid reason for excluding someone from a social group if that person refuses to correct that behavior.

I will not.

I care about the obvious effects of the action here.

Effects of trying to cheat the dice.

Nothing.

Attempts tonuse the force on the dice.

Nothing.

Believing cheating the dice is possible.

Arguements. In fighting. A deterioration of the gaming community.

Accusing somebody of cheating.

Arguments, in fighting, anger, rage, etc.

Manipulating the dice is impossible. Believing that you can or thst your opponent can is however very very easy to believe because your brain tricks you into it via confirmation bias. Go read up on it. Go look at how easy to manipulate your subconcious is.

Then tell me that you can ever reliably make an accusation about cheating at dice.

You can't. Your observation of how someones luck is compared to your own is so horrendously skewed that most games everyone believes the other guy is rolling better than they are.

I don't care about the immorality of a task when that task is impossible. It's purely a thought process and I will not police other people's thoughts. Only the effects of their actions, the consequences.

So... If I really and truly believe that your hat is affecting your dice rolls, can I accuse you of cheating?

No because believing something does not make it true.

Guys the definition of cheating only requires the affected party to perceive the advantage. Cheating in a competitive game is wrong.

That means that, yes, your magic hat is cheating only if you really and truly believe it has an outcome on the game.

This is wrong. Perception is meaningless when it comes to whether or not someone cheated. Cheating occurs when a rule -implicit or explicit- is broken. It is a bright-line test.

When it comes to whether or not someone attempted to cheat, that is when perception and intent become relevant.

In a competitive tournament there is no gray area.

So... If I really and truly believe that your hat is affecting your dice rolls, can I accuse you of cheating?

No because believing something does not make it true.

True, for every positive there is a negative I guess. I guess that's mainly what I was trying to point out is everyone's definition of cheating is different so that's why the question about if such and such is cheating is causing so much trouble. That's why I say just refer to the rules. If they really want FFG to say roll from this height, with this speed and rotation of your wrist and shake for this many seconds then they are just asking for a messed up game haha.

I agree. I'm in the dice-cheating is bogus camp myself.

And, even if it did somehow work, there's no way to tell if the person is just rolling the way they normally do, or if they're superstitious about setting their dice crit-side up before rolling, or if they're actually trying to cheat/cheating, so it's always going to be a decision based on what you think the person's intention is.

AtomicFryingPan's post echoes my thoughts.

Guys the definition of cheating only requires the affected party to perceive the advantage. Cheating in a competitive game is wrong.

That means that, yes, your magic hat is cheating only if you really and truly believe it has an outcome on the game.

So... If I really and truly believe that your hat is affecting your dice rolls, can I accuse you of cheating?

Guys the definition of cheating only requires the affected party to perceive the advantage. Cheating in a competitive game is wrong.

That means that, yes, your magic hat is cheating only if you really and truly believe it has an outcome on the game.

This is wrong. Perception is meaningless when it comes to whether or not someone cheated. Cheating occurs when a rule -implicit or explicit- is broken. It is a bright-line test.

When it comes to whether or not someone attempted to cheat, that is when perception and intent become relevant.

This is wrong. FFG has a clear definition of what is cheating (found in their ccg tournament rule books, namely conquest and I think coc and netrunner) and it makes clear that cheating is anything outside the rules with the intent to gain an advantage. Like I said the advantage need only be perceived (I'm a MtG judge, so I use the DCI's definition, which frankly is close enough to the one printed in the conquest rule book) which means if you honestly believe that your hat is affecting die rolls in your favor, or conversely preventing good die rolls for your opponent you are cheating. The hat is outside the rules, and the die outcomes are the perceived advantage.

In a competitive tournament there is no gray area.

So... If I really and truly believe that your hat is affecting your dice rolls, can I accuse you of cheating?

No because believing something does not make it true.

Definition of cheating under tournament rules does not require the advantage to be real, only that you intended to have it.

It doesn't matter if the person you're copying from writes an incorrect answer on a test, you're still cheating when you look at their paper and write down their answer. You don't have to end up with a better grade, you just have to have TRIED to gain an unfair advantage to improve your grade.