Intending to influence the dice is not cheating. Only actually influencing the dice is cheating.

But isn't trying to cheat just as bad as cheating?

If someone truly believes that they can influence the result of a die roll and attempts to do so, how trying to roll an evade through a practiced motion any different than microwaving dice? One might have a demonstrable effect, but both attempts are an effort to cheat the other player.

And beside the question if it works or not, if the player think it works and tries to exploit, the other player can also believe in the efficacy of the "cheat" in the same way, and therefore has the right to ask the opponent to stop it or call the TO.

Why are people shaking the dice in their hands anyway? They get sufficiently randomised on impact with the table, I'd have though.

Edit: and also in the very act of picking them up.

Why are people shaking the dice in their hands anyway? They get sufficiently randomised on impact with the table, I'd have though.

Edit: and also in the very act of picking them up.

I think it is to delay and therefore to increase the thrilling moment

Sooooo I have a confession to make.. I wash my dice to remove any oils that have built up because I think it gives my dice better movement and randomization than my opponents oily dice is that ok? Also I wear cotton tshirts because I think it keeps me cooler than my opponent and I think it dramatically improves my rolling since I'm not as sweaty. Is this ok too? Just because you think your gaining an advantage by doing something doesn't mean you actually are. The rules do not say that you cannot place the dice in your hand a certain way or that your forced to roll a certain way or that your required to wear only certain types of material to events so I really don't see the problem here. Until ffg makes these mandates then as long as the dice are leaving their hand and bumping and rolling about don't worry about it.

Sooooo I have a confession to make.. I wash my dice to remove any oils that have built up because I think it gives my dice better movement and randomization than my opponents oily dice is that ok? Also I wear cotton tshirts because I think it keeps me cooler than my opponent and I think it dramatically improves my rolling since I'm not as sweaty. Is this ok too? Just because you think your gaining an advantage by doing something doesn't mean you actually are. The rules do not say that you cannot place the dice in your hand a certain way or that your forced to roll a certain way or that your required to wear only certain types of material to events so I really don't see the problem here. Until ffg makes these mandates then as long as the dice are leaving their hand and bumping and rolling about don't worry about it.

Nice try to be funny, but sorry you have understood nothing concerning this topic

I will say that I have specifically changed my style of dice rolling recently after I complained about how poor my dice always were and I was told that the way I was rolling didn't get them moving enough to bump off the table enough to sufficiently randomize them, so I was actually rolling in a less random way that was disadvantageous. I took his advice, changed the way I roll so that the dice bump more cleanly on the table, and my results have greatly improved. They're more or less random now, whereas before, whether they were random or not, they didn't appear to me to be so.

I have partial evidence that the dice (green) themselves are somewhat balanced here Dice Roller 3000, but I never finished testing because I had to use my dice in a SC so they all got mixed up.

My rolling method consisted of essentially a dice cup. The die would roll to one end of the cup, then hit a rod on the way back down. It produces a very random result, but that claim is still conjecture because it's not compared to other rolling methods.

The octahedron in general is a terrible shape for dice. It doesn't roll without a great deal of force. The problem with a lot of force is that with a game like X-wing, you're very worried about hitting pieces on the board. Thus you could potentially be creating non-random results by simply not randomizing the dice very well. Could. It's all theory really. But if that is true, then it would be EASILY true that you could influence the outcome in your favor with some careful throwing. There's a reason why you're required to hit the opposite wall in craps.

Sooooo I have a confession to make.. I wash my dice to remove any oils that have built up because I think it gives my dice better movement and randomization than my opponents oily dice is that ok? Also I wear cotton tshirts because I think it keeps me cooler than my opponent and I think it dramatically improves my rolling since I'm not as sweaty. Is this ok too? Just because you think your gaining an advantage by doing something doesn't mean you actually are. The rules do not say that you cannot place the dice in your hand a certain way or that your forced to roll a certain way or that your required to wear only certain types of material to events so I really don't see the problem here. Until ffg makes these mandates then as long as the dice are leaving their hand and bumping and rolling about don't worry about it.

Nice try to be funny, but sorry you have understood nothing concerning this topic

Sooooo I have a confession to make.. I wash my dice to remove any oils that have built up because I think it gives my dice better movement and randomization than my opponents oily dice is that ok? Also I wear cotton tshirts because I think it keeps me cooler than my opponent and I think it dramatically improves my rolling since I'm not as sweaty. Is this ok too? Just because you think your gaining an advantage by doing something doesn't mean you actually are. The rules do not say that you cannot place the dice in your hand a certain way or that your forced to roll a certain way or that your required to wear only certain types of material to events so I really don't see the problem here. Until ffg makes these mandates then as long as the dice are leaving their hand and bumping and rolling about don't worry about it.

Nice try to be funny, but sorry you have understood nothing concerning this topic

Multiple people have stated that it's not about wether your cheating but the thought of cheating that matters. I was pointing out that because I think I'm giving myself an advantage that it doesn't constitute cheating per the official rulebook. Ffg has not mandated a certain way of rolling only that rolling occurs. So wether I place them in my hand with all hits facing up or all blanks facing up because I think it will help my chances it's not cheating since it's not going against any rule ffg has on rolling. It seems we're getting too much into the "motive" of the person now and not wether or not they are doing something that's been expressly stated as illegal in the rulebook. As long as your operating within the defined parameters ffg has given us then it's not cheating. If someone wants to put that much effort into placing their dice and rolling a certain way because they think it helps let them, I will still laugh when roll all blanks. If you want to argue that their motive for doing what they did is wrong then yes I would agree, anyone who's motive is to cheat then that is clearly wrong however that is separate from their actual action. The action could be perfectly legal but just a wrong motive behind it. This thread is talking about the actual act of rolling the dice or placing them a certain way. If you want to start a separate thread talking about the motives of someone cheating and how that's wrong then that would be better. This is talking about the actual physical act of rolling however and any way you want to roll is fine as long as you roll.

I understand what you mean, thank you for clearing up your post. But there is also the point that there are hideouts and FFG cannot consider everything and define it in the rulebook (at least not in the first versions). So after this hideouts become popular and someone can react (and threads in board like this one here are the most common way to expose possible hideouts or cheats). It is about to find a common thread in order to avoid long discussions for example at tournaments.

With your argument, I also could look at my damage cards after I have shuffled them, because FFG has not explicitely forbidden to look at your damage deck after shuffling. But that is common sense that it could be cheating

Sooooo I have a confession to make.. I wash my dice to remove any oils that have built up because I think it gives my dice better movement and randomization than my opponents oily dice is that ok? Also I wear cotton tshirts because I think it keeps me cooler than my opponent and I think it dramatically improves my rolling since I'm not as sweaty. Is this ok too? Just because you think your gaining an advantage by doing something doesn't mean you actually are. The rules do not say that you cannot place the dice in your hand a certain way or that your forced to roll a certain way or that your required to wear only certain types of material to events so I really don't see the problem here. Until ffg makes these mandates then as long as the dice are leaving their hand and bumping and rolling about don't worry about it.

Nice try to be funny, but sorry you have understood nothing concerning this topic

Multiple people have stated that it's not about wether your cheating but the thought of cheating that matters. I was pointing out that because I think I'm giving myself an advantage that it doesn't constitute cheating per the official rulebook. Ffg has not mandated a certain way of rolling only that rolling occurs. So wether I place them in my hand with all hits facing up or all blanks facing up because I think it will help my chances it's not cheating since it's not going against any rule ffg has on rolling. It seems we're getting too much into the "motive" of the person now and not wether or not they are doing something that's been expressly stated as illegal in the rulebook. As long as your operating within the defined parameters ffg has given us then it's not cheating. If someone wants to put that much effort into placing their dice and rolling a certain way because they think it helps let them, I will still laugh when roll all blanks. If you want to argue that their motive for doing what they did is wrong then yes I would agree, anyone who's motive is to cheat then that is clearly wrong however that is separate from their actual action. The action could be perfectly legal but just a wrong motive behind it. This thread is talking about the actual act of rolling the dice or placing them a certain way. If you want to start a separate thread talking about the motives of someone cheating and how that's wrong then that would be better. This is talking about the actual physical act of rolling however and any way you want to roll is fine as long as you roll.

I understand what you mean, thank you for clearing up your post. But there is also the point that there are hideouts and FFG cannot consider everything and define it in the rulebook (at least not in the first versions). So after this hideouts become popular and someone can react (and threads in board like this one here are the most common way to expose possible hideouts or cheats). It is about to find a common thread in order to avoid long discussions for example at tournaments.

With your argument, I also could look at my damage cards after I have shuffled them, because FFG has not explicitely forbidden to look at your damage deck after shuffling. But that is common sense that it could be cheating

Personally, I don't care what he does. If he intends to cheat, let him.

It'll never work, because rolling dice and letting them bounce on the table, which has thousands of microscopic flaws in it that ensure randomness when they bounce off, will always produce a random result, even if they drop it straight from their hand onto the table. There are infinite possible variables in how the dice fall out of your hand and hit the table. The ridges that form handprints, wrinkles in your skin that change in many minute ways every time you flex your hands, the infinite positions of your fingers, and the infinite angles your wrist can take will all influence the way the dice fall from your hands because all objects in the universe have at least some friction and will catch on them. The resistance of the air as the dice fall will change even in the span of several seconds because of temperature, pressure, gravimetric changes due to perturbations in spacetime around the Earth, and infinite variations in the speed of local air currents. And finally, the surface of the table and the dice have untold trillions of tiny variations at the macroscopic and atomic level, many variations in the amount of repulsion between the atoms of the table and the atoms in the dice, and variations in the density of the material the dice are made from despite the manufacturer's best efforts to make perfectly balanced dice.

All of these infinite variables combine to make it impossible to predict where the dice will fall, even if you have perfect muscle control and let them fall in exactly the same way every single time. It's basic physics, and there's really no need to perform any experiments because the physical interactions between the dice, your hands, the air, and the table are so complex that there is no way to predict how they will react. You'd need intimate knowledge about the quantum nature of the table, dice, and your hands, as well as a way to eliminate all air currents (which aside from evacuating the gaming center is impossible).

Bottom line: it's pointless to accuse someone of cheating when they're doing the equivalent of summoning their gods to help them.

It'll be awesome to go back and read through this thread once FFG releases their floor rules.

Personally, I don't care what he does. If he intends to cheat, let him.

It'll never work, because rolling dice and letting them bounce on the table, which has thousands of microscopic flaws in it that ensure randomness when they bounce off, will always produce a random result, even if they drop it straight from their hand onto the table. There are infinite possible variables in how the dice fall out of your hand and hit the table. The ridges that form handprints, wrinkles in your skin that change in many minute ways every time you flex your hands, the infinite positions of your fingers, and the infinite angles your wrist can take will all influence the way the dice fall from your hands because all objects in the universe have at least some friction and will catch on them. The resistance of the air as the dice fall will change even in the span of several seconds because of temperature, pressure, gravimetric changes due to perturbations in spacetime around the Earth, and infinite variations in the speed of local air currents. And finally, the surface of the table and the dice have untold trillions of tiny variations at the macroscopic and atomic level, many variations in the amount of repulsion between the atoms of the table and the atoms in the dice, and variations in the density of the material the dice are made from despite the manufacturer's best efforts to make perfectly balanced dice.

All of these infinite variables combine to make it impossible to predict where the dice will fall, even if you have perfect muscle control and let them fall in exactly the same way every single time. It's basic physics, and there's really no need to perform any experiments because the physical interactions between the dice, your hands, the air, and the table are so complex that there is no way to predict how they will react. You'd need intimate knowledge about the quantum nature of the table, dice, and your hands, as well as a way to eliminate all air currents (which aside from evacuating the gaming center is impossible).

Bottom line: it's pointless to accuse someone of cheating when they're doing the equivalent of summoning their gods to help them.

Exactly this. Agree 100 percent! Apparently it's the thought of cheating that makes it wrong tho haha.

And your green dice will still come up blank even if you learn how to cheat because that's the way the galaxy works.

Someone knows my pain.

Personally, I don't care what he does. If he intends to cheat, let him.

It'll never work, because rolling dice and letting them bounce on the table, which has thousands of microscopic flaws in it that ensure randomness when they bounce off, will always produce a random result, even if they drop it straight from their hand onto the table. There are infinite possible variables in how the dice fall out of your hand and hit the table. The ridges that form handprints, wrinkles in your skin that change in many minute ways every time you flex your hands, the infinite positions of your fingers, and the infinite angles your wrist can take will all influence the way the dice fall from your hands because all objects in the universe have at least some friction and will catch on them. The resistance of the air as the dice fall will change even in the span of several seconds because of temperature, pressure, gravimetric changes due to perturbations in spacetime around the Earth, and infinite variations in the speed of local air currents. And finally, the surface of the table and the dice have untold trillions of tiny variations at the macroscopic and atomic level, many variations in the amount of repulsion between the atoms of the table and the atoms in the dice, and variations in the density of the material the dice are made from despite the manufacturer's best efforts to make perfectly balanced dice.

All of these infinite variables combine to make it impossible to predict where the dice will fall, even if you have perfect muscle control and let them fall in exactly the same way every single time. It's basic physics, and there's really no need to perform any experiments because the physical interactions between the dice, your hands, the air, and the table are so complex that there is no way to predict how they will react. You'd need intimate knowledge about the quantum nature of the table, dice, and your hands, as well as a way to eliminate all air currents (which aside from evacuating the gaming center is impossible).

Bottom line: it's pointless to accuse someone of cheating when they're doing the equivalent of summoning their gods to help them.

Exactly this. Agree 100 percent! Apparently it's the thought of cheating that makes it wrong tho haha.

To put it even more bluntly, if you're going to ban someone from doing "special rolling techniques", you might as well ban people from praying to God, Allah, the Dice Gods, etc. before a game, because it has roughly the same probability of affecting your dice.

Personally, I don't care what he does. If he intends to cheat, let him.

It'll never work, because rolling dice and letting them bounce on the table, which has thousands of microscopic flaws in it that ensure randomness when they bounce off, will always produce a random result, even if they drop it straight from their hand onto the table. There are infinite possible variables in how the dice fall out of your hand and hit the table. The ridges that form handprints, wrinkles in your skin that change in many minute ways every time you flex your hands, the infinite positions of your fingers, and the infinite angles your wrist can take will all influence the way the dice fall from your hands because all objects in the universe have at least some friction and will catch on them. The resistance of the air as the dice fall will change even in the span of several seconds because of temperature, pressure, gravimetric changes due to perturbations in spacetime around the Earth, and infinite variations in the speed of local air currents. And finally, the surface of the table and the dice have untold trillions of tiny variations at the macroscopic and atomic level, many variations in the amount of repulsion between the atoms of the table and the atoms in the dice, and variations in the density of the material the dice are made from despite the manufacturer's best efforts to make perfectly balanced dice.

All of these infinite variables combine to make it impossible to predict where the dice will fall, even if you have perfect muscle control and let them fall in exactly the same way every single time. It's basic physics, and there's really no need to perform any experiments because the physical interactions between the dice, your hands, the air, and the table are so complex that there is no way to predict how they will react. You'd need intimate knowledge about the quantum nature of the table, dice, and your hands, as well as a way to eliminate all air currents (which aside from evacuating the gaming center is impossible).

Bottom line: it's pointless to accuse someone of cheating when they're doing the equivalent of summoning their gods to help them.

Exactly this. Agree 100 percent! Apparently it's the thought of cheating that makes it wrong tho haha.

To put it even more bluntly, if you're going to ban someone from doing "special rolling techniques", you might as well ban people from praying to God, Allah, the Dice Gods, etc. before a game, because it has roughly the same probability of affecting your dice.

Now that's offensive! Praying to the dice gods does not grant good rolls you do it to make them tamper with some other poor sods rolls.

They're gods of misfortune.

It's harder, but not impossible, to control a die roll on a d8 than a d6 so let's not pretend that you can't cheat with dice.

It's harder, but not impossible, to control a die roll on a d8 than a d6 so let's not pretend that you can't cheat with dice.

Controlling a single d8 die ide give you a big MAYBE buuuuuttt were talking about multiple dice all interacting with each other. Throws a lot more variables in there which do indeed make it pretty much impossible. Or as Tarkin puts it "I think you overestimate their chances".

It's harder, but not impossible, to control a die roll on a d8 than a d6 so let's not pretend that you can't cheat with dice.

Controlling a single d8 die ide give you a big MAYBE buuuuuttt were talking about multiple dice all interacting with each other. Throws a lot more variables in there which do indeed make it pretty much impossible. Or as Tarkin puts it "I think you overestimate their chances".

I've mastered cheating at this game!

It's harder, but not impossible, to control a die roll on a d8 than a d6 so let's not pretend that you can't cheat with dice.

Controlling a single d8 die ide give you a big MAYBE buuuuuttt were talking about multiple dice all interacting with each other. Throws a lot more variables in there which do indeed make it pretty much impossible. Or as Tarkin puts it "I think you overestimate their chances".

I'm gonna only use Hawk 290's so all my attack dice are crits!

I've mastered cheating at this game!

Yes! Now ffg will be forced to ban Hawks and dexteritous hands.

It's harder, but not impossible, to control a die roll on a d8 than a d6 so let's not pretend that you can't cheat with dice.

Chaos Theory says hi.

It's harder, but not impossible, to control a die roll on a d8 than a d6 so let's not pretend that you can't cheat with dice.

Chaos Theory says hi.

If I can roll my dice in such a way that I can improve their consistency I would have an extreme advantage. For example, on a d6 the 1 face and the 6 face are on opposite ends of the die, so if you roll the die, using your finger as a rail you can mitigate the likelihood of those two results occuring. Doing so increases the chances that your dice behave closer to their expected value and as anyone can tell you: Mediocre and consistent will win more over time than streaks of hot followed by streaks of cold.

http://m.reviewjournal.com/news/crime-courts/couple-accused-dice-sliding-wynn-las-vegas

Again, you guys can scoff all you want, but cheating through die rolls is very real and possible.

I just leve this here

Sweet video. You can clearly cheat with six-sided dice, and with two of them. Let's see 3+ dice and eight-sided ones. I have a feeling they are quite a bit harder to control. Though, I think it can be done to statistically improve your odds of rolling the desired values. Personally, if Jigaboo Jones wanted to play X-Wing with me, I'd be happy to let him join me, because that kind of trick dice rolling would be crazy fun to watch in person.