Your hat is irrivlent to the game, the dice are. Dice can be hot or cold and while there is nothing wrong with wanting to have lucky dice, actively staring at them is not good sportsmanship. A hat meanwhile subjectly can't influence a game and there isn't anything wrong with wanting to wear a particlar garment as a hat is a subject seperate from the game, a outside factor. For me the two subject matters are complelely different. Staring at a dice is intending to cheat, wearing a hat isn't. I don't understand how the question at hand can be interpreted in any other way.

How about staring at your opponents dice. Come on blanks, blanks, blanks...oh wait I guess that's cheating hahaha.

Your hat is irrivlent to the game, the dice are. Dice can be hot or cold and while there is nothing wrong with wanting to have lucky dice, actively staring at them is not good sportsmanship. A hat meanwhile subjectly can't influence a game and there isn't anything wrong with wanting to wear a particlar garment as a hat is a subject seperate from the game, a outside factor. For me the two subject matters are complelely different. Staring at a dice is intending to cheat, wearing a hat isn't. I don't understand how the question at hand can be interpreted in any other way.

Unless you actually have jedi powers, you can stare at my dice all day if you want.

Your hat is irrivlent to the game, the dice are.

As long as you talk about intent, then no it's not.

Dice can be hot or cold and while there is nothing wrong with wanting to have lucky dice, actively staring at them is not good sportsmanship.

So now I can't look at my dice before I roll them? My how the term sportsmanship gets misused around here.

Staring at a dice is intending to cheat, wearing a hat isn't.

Staring at the dice has as much effect as wearing a hat does. None. So if the only thing that matters is the intent, what I'm trying to do. Then both are cheating because both are an attempt to influence the dice.

The only difference is you believe one has an effect and the other doesn't. But what you believe doesn't matter when talking about the intent of someone else. The only thing that matters is what they believe.

Dice is data you play a game with. If influenced it can change the course of the game.

a hat has no physical presence in xwing unless you slap it on the table and use it to break expensive toys.

How can the difference be Any less obvious?

I am going to say no more.

I am going to say no more.

That's good, since you aren't saying anything valuable in the first place...

If you can actually influence the dice in some way, yes it can change the course of the game. But simply staring at them is not going to actually influence them in any way, it's going to have exactly the same effect as my hat does.

I quite honestly don't see how I could put this any more simply.

If intent is the only thing that matters then anything I do, regardless of the effect it actually has is cheating. That is a nonsense stance to take however, because as I've pointed out a number of times, then wearing my lucky hat is then cheating. Because my intent is to have my hat influence the dice rolls, because I just so happen to believe it actually has a real impact.

If you are however setting the dice on the table so they don't actually bounce and/or roll, then you are in fact cheating. But that is again not the same thing as staring at your dice.

If there's any question about the way someone is rolling the dice, feel free to call the TO over and ask him/her about it. But be prepared to suffer the consequences of a ticked off TO for wasting their time, because the other guy is 'using the force'

I think it may be possible to skew the results to some degree with practice. (maybe)

Rolling the dice with the intent to get 180 degrees of rotation before they hit the table, for instance. With practice, I would say you could get some consistency in which surface impacts the play surface. now our play surface is often padded, which absorbs some of the kinetic energy of the dice "dampening" them.

So, perhaps with practice and being able to see the dice prior to relase, you might be able to skew the results to some degree. I'm not sure, but I am going to try it over a mousepad mat with xwing dice and see what I can do, and I will track the results.

I think a dice tower removes all doubt (and never removes a miniature from the table accidentally.)

Comparing this to throwing dice at a craps table is a flawed control. There, you do actually throw the dice, and they travel and tumble a great deal, introducing lots of randomness.

In this game, more people shake them and then just let them roll out of their hand. Excepting collisions on the way down, the dice are going to roll at a certain rate, so with consistency and practice, I think you could have some effect over how the dice land on initial impact. After that, they are going to tumble some, but not as much as they would on a hard surface.

Needs more investigation before being completely discounted.

Let me put it another way. Would everyone be ok with me picking up the dice, turning them all to hits, not shaking them at all, and then letting them roll out of my hand onto the padded surface?

Yeah, I didn't think so. Me neither.

I think the issue here is whether you're guilty through intent, or whether you're only guilty through your actions. Is cheating an attempt to take an unfair advantage, or is cheating actually obtaining an unfair advantage? I would actually err on the side of the latter. For those of you claiming that even attempting to control the game in an unfair way, whether that attempt is efficacious or not, constitutes cheating, what would you say to someone who truly believed his lucky hat changed the way the dice worked, and he wore it specifically to create that change. Isn't that the same thing as rolling the dice in a specific way to obtain the desired results if both are, in point of fact, equally likely to effect the outcome?

Fine, I'll bite a little. ^__^ I have no intention of getting involved any further with pointless hypobole about facts irrilievant. Aside from the fact that it is a questionable social practice to wear a hat indoors, I guess I will be fine to stare at my dice, practice the methods of which I role them for the most probable result, safe in the knowledge that I can simply state to those who suspect me of cheating "well, your wearing underpants today, you good sir are just as bad as I am."

With this small talk completed, I conclude my business. Well done, riverting display. You won the argument, I need to make a policy of removing hats from all discussions and games for the fear that the Lord up there will interfer in my social past times.

Another thought - is it cheating if you can roll dice intentionally to get hits, or is it just a really awesome skill that makes you better at playing the game?

Needs more investigation before being completely discounted.

In theory sure. In theory if you can replicate the exact conditions every time, you can control a coin flip.

But that's not possible in a practical sense for anyone to do. Same goes with the dice. You'd have to drop them from exactly the same height, with the same dice hitting the same spot, with the same amount of mid drop collision of the dice, every time.

Even a minor change in any of those things would throw the whole thing back into random chance. Also you'd have to learn to do this on a given surface, and as soon as that surface changes things will no longer work the same way. That means in a tournament you can't really use this method.

So I'll grant if someone is using a tape measure to check the distance their hand is from the table, then you'd have a possible issue.

Needs more investigation before being completely discounted.

In theory sure. In theory if you can replicate the exact conditions every time, you can control a coin flip.

But that's not possible in a practical sense for anyone to do. Same goes with the dice. You'd have to drop them from exactly the same height, with the same dice hitting the same spot, with the same amount of mid drop collision of the dice, every time.

Even a minor change in any of those things would throw the whole thing back into random chance. Also you'd have to learn to do this on a given surface, and as soon as that surface changes things will no longer work the same way. That means in a tournament you can't really use this method.

So I'll grant if someone is using a tape measure to check the distance their hand is from the table, then you'd have a possible issue.

True, but what if you're not so much rolling a hit on command as rolling slightly more hits over the long term? That could have a statistically significant difference throughout the course of the game, or a whole tournament, even if each individual throw isn't perfectly executed.

It's a matter of sportsmanship more then anything else.

Oh god, sportsmanship again. Thats a whole other can of worms.

Would everyone be ok with me picking up the dice, turning them all to hits, not shaking them at all, and then letting them roll out of my hand onto the padded surface?

If they don't bounce or roll at all? No but I've been saying that for about 3 pages now.

I can simply state to those who suspect me of cheating "well, your wearing underpants today, you good sir are just as bad as I am."

It's amazing how someone can get fixated on an example and just miss the whole point.

True, but what if you're not so much rolling a hit on command as rolling slightly more hits over the long term?

See that's just it, I don't think you can.

I looked into the whole dice setting thing used in Craps last time this came up, watched a couple youtube videos on it.

What they're going in that case is trying to roll the dice like a wheel. So they spin on a axis and when they hit the back wall, they are more likely to stay on that axis. That means you reduce the odds of 2 faces from being rolled. You pick the two faces that are less likely to add up to your target, like say 6 and 1, and roll the dice so those are the outside sides, meaning they are less likely to show up when the dice stop.

You can't actually roll a 3 and 4, you can't pick a face to show up, just 2 faces that are less likely to show up.

That whole thing won't work with 8 sided dice however, because you can't roll them across a table on a axis like you do at Craps.

If the dice bounce even 2 or 3 times, you are no longer able to put any control on what face will show up, unless you can control exactly how much force, rotation, suffice impact, ect... they have. But there is no practical way to do that. Especially at a tournament since you can't control what suffice you'll be playing on, and not all pads are going to act the same way.

I think the issue here is whether you're guilty through intent, or whether you're only guilty through your actions. Is cheating an attempt to take an unfair advantage, or is cheating actually obtaining an unfair advantage? I would actually err on the side of the latter. For those of you claiming that even attempting to control the game in an unfair way, whether that attempt is efficacious or not, constitutes cheating, what would you say to someone who truly believed his lucky hat changed the way the dice worked, and he wore it specifically to create that change. Isn't that the same thing as rolling the dice in a specific way to obtain the desired results if both are, in point of fact, equally likely to effect the outcome?

The corked-bat argument is a good scenario to refute the idea that "it's not cheating if it ain't working." It's definitely attempting to gain an advantage over the intended randomness of results. And it's not about what you think about your lucky hat, it's what your opponent/TO thinks about your actions. If someone wants to wear a hat for superstitious reasons, who's gonna argue? Everyone knows it's silly, but if it gives that person comfort/confidence, then whatever. However, it's when other people have a problem with your actions (like trying to roll dice exactly 180/360 degrees after timing it out in your hand) that it's a problem. And on the subject of sportsmanship, if you do get so peeved about someone's good rolls and demand they take off their hat/pants/ankle bracelet, then YOU are the problem, and nobody should be forced to play with you, as fun and flying casual have clearly left your life.

Personally, I don't see what's so hard about trusting your skill to win games, if you can't build a squad that grants you the amount of rolls/rerolls to be successful, that's nobody else's problem. Throw the dice, hope for fortunate rolls, and play fair. You should always roll dice as "randomly" as possible without them flying everywhere. I don't like people who give their dice a half-shake in the hand and drop them about 1 inch onto the table, but if that's just how they do it and they clearly aren't focusing on what's showing in their hand, it's all good.

And lastly, let's drop the "wearing a hat indoors is disrespectful" garbage. It's not a fancy cocktail party, and it's not 1950 anymore. Honestly, with some of the people you see at game stores, their hair is far more disrespectful than covering that mess with a hat is.

The corked-bat argument

The corked-bat argument doesn't work at all, because in that case you're altering an object to change the way it works. That argument would only work if we were talking about putting your dice in a microwave to change how they roll.

I think the issue here is whether you're guilty through intent, or whether you're only guilty through your actions. Is cheating an attempt to take an unfair advantage, or is cheating actually obtaining an unfair advantage? I would actually err on the side of the latter. For those of you claiming that even attempting to control the game in an unfair way, whether that attempt is efficacious or not, constitutes cheating, what would you say to someone who truly believed his lucky hat changed the way the dice worked, and he wore it specifically to create that change. Isn't that the same thing as rolling the dice in a specific way to obtain the desired results if both are, in point of fact, equally likely to effect the outcome?

The corked-bat argument is a good scenario to refute the idea that "it's not cheating if it ain't working." It's definitely attempting to gain an advantage over the intended randomness of results. And it's not about what you think about your lucky hat, it's what your opponent/TO thinks about your actions. If someone wants to wear a hat for superstitious reasons, who's gonna argue? Everyone knows it's silly, but if it gives that person comfort/confidence, then whatever. However, it's when other people have a problem with your actions (like trying to roll dice exactly 180/360 degrees after timing it out in your hand) that it's a problem.

Personally, I don't see what's so hard about trusting your skill to win games, if you can't build a squad that grants you the amount of rolls/rerolls to be successful, that's nobody else's problem. Throw the dice, hope for fortunate rolls, and play fair. You should always roll dice as "randomly" as possible without them flying everywhere. I don't like people who give their dice a half-shake in the hand and drop them about 1 inch onto the table, but if that's just how they do it and they clearly aren't focusing on what's showing in their hand, it's all good.

The corked bat is actually a poor analogy, because it's equipment tampering. The dice in the posited scenario aren't tampered with. Also, the corked back thing is only an issue because it works. If it didn't worked, it would still technically be an equipment violation, but it wouldn't be something anybody bothered with.

Also, Vanor is a ninja.

Also, Vanor is a ninja.

Yes, yes I am.

But issue once again is if we only consider intent, than anything someone believes will influence the outcome of the dice is cheating.

That is the only logical outcome of such a statement. It all is based on what the person in question intends, which is wholly subjective and has nothing to do with what someone else may believe.

If I truly believe my hat, or a lucky coin, or putting my dice so the crit side face up, has an effect on the game, then my intent based on that logic is to cheat. Because I intend for whatever it is to give me an advantage and help me win games.

Let me put it another way. Would everyone be ok with me picking up the dice, turning them all to hits, not shaking them at all, and then letting them roll out of my hand onto the padded surface?

Yeah, I didn't think so. Me neither.

So long as the dice "rolled", sure. Have at it. Whatever blows your dress up.

Now if you placed the dice in your hand a certain way and then slammed them on the table. Not so much.

Also, the corked back thing is only an issue because it works.

Actually that's a great point. Corking a bat is proven to have an impact on how far a baseball will go when you hit it. A ball hit with a corked bat will go farther than a normal one, this a matter of objective fact.

Until 1975 an altered bat simply was removed if discovered and there was no further penalty. It wasn't until it was proven that doing so actually effected the game that they took stronger steps to deal with it.

So until someone can prove a given method of dice rolling has an actual impact, then no even by the corked bat logic, it's not cheating. Because a corked bat doesn't mean you won't strike out, just that you'll hit the ball farther when you do connect.

Needs more investigation before being completely discounted.

In theory sure. In theory if you can replicate the exact conditions every time, you can control a coin flip.

But that's not possible in a practical sense for anyone to do. Same goes with the dice. You'd have to drop them from exactly the same height, with the same dice hitting the same spot, with the same amount of mid drop collision of the dice, every time.

Even a minor change in any of those things would throw the whole thing back into random chance. Also you'd have to learn to do this on a given surface, and as soon as that surface changes things will no longer work the same way. That means in a tournament you can't really use this method.

So I'll grant if someone is using a tape measure to check the distance their hand is from the table, then you'd have a possible issue.

Your coin flip example is a bad one, because I definitely practiced that enough times growing up (I had a brother) that I can ALWAYS get a quarter to land heads-up. Exactly 3 revolutions in the air.

To put forward a different example about success or intent, if you copy off someone else's exam but they got all the answers wrong... I'd say that was still cheating, you just did a bad job at it.

So trying to put a specific spin or roll on the dice, even if you fail to do so, is cheating, as far as I'm concerned.

Until 1975 an altered bat simply was removed if discovered and there was no further penalty.

... And why was it removed, even though it wasn't proven effective?

Because it was an intentional attempt to cheat. It was the intent, and the attempt, that constituted cheating.

You not only don't seem to understand that cheating doesn't need to be efficacious to be cheating, you also don't seem to understand that cheating doesn't need to have a penalty other than being required to stop doing it.

Some people are superstitious. For instance if my dice are going badly I'll flip them all to hits/evades as they sit waiting on the table. Of course I don't believe that flipping them gives me any advantage in rolling but it does distract me from my disastrous dice.

Your coin flip example is a bad one

No it's not, because you can control the conditions on a coin flip a lot easier then you can with a 8 sided dice.

It was the intent, and the attempt, that constituted cheating.

Ok, then having out a lucky coin is also cheating. Because that is the intent. If sas you say... "You not only don't seem to understand that cheating doesn't need to be efficacious to be cheating..."

Anything I do, anything at all, that I believe has an impact on the game is cheating. Because the actual effect doesn't matter, only the intent.

Edit: Cut out some stuff, because it dawned on me, that once again this thread is really about a small group of people wanting to control how other play, and looking for excuses when they lose.

"Oh he was staring at his dice before he rolled them, he cheated and that's why I lost."