Thursday is X-Wing night at my FLGS. A good group of us meet up now.

There's a tournament at said store at the end of May, and people are putting together their ideas for it.

There are going to be practice games tomorrow, and whilst discussing builds two of us discovered we going 'Deci and ....' in a rather different way. Of course this means we fancy a fight.

My squad -

100 points

Colonel Vessery (43)

TIE Defender (35), Heavy Laser Cannon (7), Veteran Instincts (1)

Commander Kenkirk (57)
VT-49 Decimator (44), Lone Wolf (2), Moff Jerjerrod (2), Weapons Engineer (3), Ysanne Isard (4), Anti-Pursuit Lasers (2)

His -

97 points

Soontir Fel (35)

TIE Interceptor (27), Royal Guard TIE (0), Push the Limit (3), Autothrusters (2), Stealth Device (3)

Rear Admiral Chiraneau (62)
VT-49 Decimator (46), Determination (1), Gunner (5), Darth Vader (3), Rebel Captive (3), Engine Upgrade (4)

Looks like an interesting match up to me. My plan is to keep Kenkirk at R3 of RAC, and make the most of my evade and 1 AGI (hopefully 2), using my upgrades to mitigate some of the crits he'll dish out. Keep a TL on him so that Vessery can hit RAC hard with HLC. Then I've got two ships against Fel. No small feat but doable with a turret and a sniper?

How would you do go toe to toe? This is the only match I know will happen so I'm thinking it through. Who knows what else I'll play!

It looks like you are at a big disadvantage. He's got engine upgrade on his deci and rebel captive. That means you will never be able to maintain range 3 on him, he can close to whatever range he wants. His Fel, if flown properly does not fear your turret and moving last can stay out of Vessery's arc or out of kenkirk's turret. I would strongly recommend either Rebel Captive or engine upgrade (or both) on your decimator to stand a chance. I could be wrong though, but that's how it seems to me.

If you are going with Kenkirk, then I personally think you should go PtL + Engine Upgrade + Ysanne all the way. Then Kenkirk gets to arc dodge at the start of the combat phase, triggering PtL via Ysanne. Of course you want to Target Lock as your action so that Vessery gets his free TL attacking the same target. I think VI on Vessery is a waste, there are other better options, and he can already shoot before Kenkirk since they are both PS6.

Putting the HLC on Vessery is entirely optional and doesn't help or hurt his overall efficiency, it just moves him into glass cannon territory. Personally when I ran HLC I found it would only trigger a couple times per game, then it became a close in knife fight. But I didn't play it very much so your mileage may vary.

Here is a baseline squad that I was playing around with a few months ago. It's probably not as good as RAC + Fel/Whisper, but it can still be effective and is certainly fun.

93 points

Kenkirk + PtL + EU + Ysanne + Rebel Captive (58)

Vessery (35)

With the remaining 7 points you have at least a couple of options.

1. HLC on Vessery
2. Lone Wolf or Wingman on Vessery, plus 5 more points for Kenkirk (Gunner, or Mara Jade + Seismic).

I think you will have a REALLY hard time trying to fight his Soontir/RAC. If he flies Soontir well, he could practically destroy both of your ships if given enough time. Like blade_mericuial mentioned, Rebel Captive is going to be a massive pain (Vessery will be stressed if he ever shoots at RAC, and defenders don't like stress).

If you want to try and keep the list 'the same', I would at least drop anti-pursuit lasers, and upgrade Vessery to Rex. Being PS10 will really put the fear into soontir, and rex can severely main RAC if given a good shot. But you won't be so hot on action economy. I would also switch out weapons engineer for your own rebel captive with that defender switch. It will still be a tough fight, but at least it wouldn't look so bleak.

Rexler+HLC and a FO on the Deci anybody?

EU+predator on the rear admiral is really strong as an option.

Wow. I didn't expect the outlook to be that negative (though I appreciate the honesty and the suggestions).

Thing is, this is just one fight, and the list as is is bound to be better against others lists. Isn't it? I hope....

Say I stick with the pilots, would the suggestions (even though I don't own EU) help in general or just against this one enemy?

I think MajorJuggler's suggestions would make this list better against almost anything, honestly. I don't see APL, Veteran Instincts, or Weapons Engineer really pulling their weight in this list.

Honestly if it were me and I fly that exact list quite a bit I would 100% concentrate on vessery. Once his shields go down then it's a bad day for him as Vader will rip him apart. Being brutally honest in a competitive setting you're at a huge disadvantage and doing no favors by bringing a defender. You're vessery is 43 points to his 35 point fel who just does way more. Unfortunately you're going up against one of the top tier imperial lists so it will be an uphill battle. You're best bet is to block with kenkirk and hope your defender can kill him with 1 or 2 shots

The Defender won't be going anywhere, competitive or not. Mathwing etc is all well and good; but I'll fly the ships I'm keen on ultimately.

I am open to different options being used on the two ships though.

More widely, should I just expect to face a tough time in general with Defender/Decimator?

Soontir squads pretty much ALWAYS have the upperhand now. Pretty much ALWAYS.

I had my time with Fel, and he's a top guy. But he's just not 'me' right now.

If you are going with Kenkirk, then I personally think you should go PtL + Engine Upgrade + Ysanne all the way.

This right here

if you thought turrets were ******* stupid because they already ignore your maneuvers by just going "ah, what the hell, I'll shoot that guy because I don't have to commit for ****," imagine how you'll feel when they're boosting out of your face pre-combat

personally, though, I feel there's far more potential hilarity in Oicuun w/dauntless

My want for results may fly in the face of the ships I want to fly, but ramming never seems to work well.

My want for results may fly in the face of the ships I want to fly, but ramming never seems to work well.

it does against soontir

If you are going with Kenkirk, then I personally think you should go PtL + Engine Upgrade + Ysanne all the way.

This right here

if you thought turrets were ******* stupid because they already ignore your maneuvers by just going "ah, what the hell, I'll shoot that guy because I don't have to commit for ****," imagine how you'll feel when they're boosting out of your face pre-combat

personally, though, I feel there's far more potential hilarity in Oicuun w/dauntless

Strictly speaking, not mutually exclusive: pair a nearby ship with the Wingman EPT to pull the Dauntless stress off, then Oicunn can PtL boost during combat with Engine Upgrade and Ysanne. Next round you wouldn't be able to use Dauntless though since you ended the turn stressed.

Not that you would necessarily want to build a squad around these shenanigans, but functionally it would be legal.

I think the real plan vs. slippery arc dodgers is widen your firing arcs. Many ships avoid fighting at range 3, where their arc is the widest. With that in mind, that's where an hlc defender fights the best. Yes autothrusters is a thing, but oh well, so is 3 hull points.

The decimator doesn't care about arc, because turret, so just make it hard for soontir to avoid your arc by staying back as much as possible, burn down his support quickly, then hunt that dude down and stick dice into him until his dice stop working.

Definitely more power to ya for sticking to your guns and ships I think you're just gonna have to work harder for you wins.

Last thursday I ran this:

Kenkirk + PTL + Ysanne + Gunner + Engine

Brath + Lone Wolf

Had a good time with it, but felt kind of dirty pulling the EU arc dodge at the beginning of combat. Hard to tell how good it is because my dice were REALLY hot, but was able to keep Lone Wolf in effect. Also was able to use Brath's ability more than once. "Flip 'em"

I second MajorJuggler's suggestions, I think they would make the list better all around.

On the other hand, PtL vs Rebel Captive is usually nothing more than a way to waste 3 points on an upgrade you can never use. Keep Lone Wolf in this case, it will be better in this matchup specially if/when Vessery cannot shoot first. It also plays far better with the eternal Kenkirk thing you are going for.

VI on Vessery is counter productive. Having Vessery and Kenkirk share PS 6 is likely to be more helpful than the small advantage gained by going to PS 8.

The best combo for Decimators vs. arc-dodgers with autothrusters is Gunner+ Rebel Captive+Ysanne+Engine upgrade. This allows you to hard turn + boost every round in order to turn inside their radius, while forcing them to clear stress every time. Interceptors (Soontir) and A-Wings must 2 turn plus boost to shoot every round, and cannot PtL or they will wind up double stressed. IG88s and Star Vipers are in even worse position, because they don't have hard turn greens. Gunner helps you get hits, especially since you should be able to take unanswered shots about every other turn or so.

I'm not sure how you get this setup on Kenkirk without dramatically changing your list. Perhaps trading out the cannon on Vessery entirely for Ruthlessness, to help you in matchups vs. Swarms as well as give you an alternative way to get damage on a dodgy Soontir. I've had players fly their own shuttles off the board intentionally just to prevent me using Ruthlessness to put more damage on their pricy arc dodgers. If you did all that, your final list would look like:

SDCC

100 points

PILOTS

Commander Kenkirk (62)
VT-49 Decimator (44), Lone Wolf (2), Rebel Captive (3), Ysanne Isard (4), Gunner (5), Engine Upgrade (4)

Colonel Vessery (38)
TIE Defender (35), Ruthlessness (3)

On the other hand, PtL vs Rebel Captive is usually nothing more than a way to waste 3 points on an upgrade you can never use.

That's why I was toying around with Wingman on Vessery, so that in the mirror you can still F+TL or TL+boost, shoot at a rebel captive, and clear 2 stress per turn. I don't really like the ball and chain though, keeping Vessery in R1 when needed is not always practical. Not a list I would take to a Regionals. The root problem here is that Kenkirk is a little overcosted relative to RAC, if he shed some cost then he would be a more viable option, which would help builds like this.

The Defender won't be going anywhere, competitive or not. Mathwing etc is all well and good; but I'll fly the ships I'm keen on ultimately.

I am open to different options being used on the two ships though.

More widely, should I just expect to face a tough time in general with Defender/Decimator?

I used this in a store championship before Wave 6 hit and went 4-2. VI seemingly isn't as important these days and there are a lot more stress lists out there now to make Ysanne useless. If I ran it again I'd drop those and maybe drop HLC to Mangler to free up points that could be better spent elsewhere.

It's not eternal Kenkirk but I really like Big O death Roll:

Big O + Dauntless + Daredevil + EU (you can add vader, vader and gunner, or other options). My first ever match with a decimator I rammed for a total of 13 damage plus whatever I did shooting. There is a theoretical build where you could put down like 10 damage on a ship in a single round but I find that 2 ram damage + a 3 dice primary is pretty nasty and you can avoid a lot of fire by daredeviling when overlapping a big gun.

Eternal Kenkirk? Not heard that one before! I guess I was trying to make him last.

The thought of just flying at people - come at me - and making them get out the way or take damage is quite amusing.

Thanks for the suggestions so far. I'm playing to tonight so need to make a decision.

It does seem I've picked an awkward pair, or might have to change a plan I was feeling OK with (having made it myself). But I want a good chance so it has to happen.

Daredevil looks pretty pricey, on a ship that is probably going to be focused down.