The way Extra Munitions is going to be worded it instructs the player to place a munitions token on each Torpedo, Missile, or Bomb upgrade card they have equipped. However, Extra Munitions itself is a Torpedo upgrade. So does this not mean the player has to place a munitions token on Extra Munitions too even though it cannot be used there? Even worse if I put Extra Munitions on a Y-wing with Bomb Loadout in the other Torpedo slot wouldn't I then have to place 3 munitions tokens on this one ship despite only one being usable?

This may seem silly, but I see this as something which some players may try to exploit, and may cause issues with future Torpedo, Missile, and Bomb upgrades that come out.

Also I see that the Tie Punisher is slated to come with Cluster Bombs. I have not seen the Cluster Bombs card yet, but based on the token it looks like they are meant to be left for other ships to run into much like Proximity Mines. However this expansion comes with Extra Munitions and thus Cluster Bombs can be used twice by this ship. This means two sets of Cluster Bomb tokens are required to utilize this expansion fully. Shouldn't the expansion therefore include two sets of Cluster Bomb tokens?

As for your first point, I don't see what the issue is. Okay, put a munitions token on the Extra Munitions upgrade. It won't do anything. The card specifically states that when you are instructed to discard a card you can discard a token "on that card" not just from anywhere. It seems they covered the wording just fine. There is nothing for anyone to "exploit" with having useless tokens on their upgrade cards.

As for your second point, "should" is a very subjective. As a customer, yes we feel it should include more than 1. But from a business/shareholder perspective, they absolutely should not include two. That way people are encouraged to buy more of them. It's not the most honorable business practice, but I'm really not that surprised they did it that way. Most people will buy two+ anyway so there won't be much of an uproar about it.

Yes, strictly speaking extra munitions and bomb loadout should have a tokens placed on them. So? That token wouldn't do anything, nothing tells you to discard those cards so there is never an opportunity to spend the token that is on one of them.

The need for a second cluster mine (not cluster bomb) has been brought up before in a couple threads. It's an issue, but probably not a big one. Third party manufacturers will certainly quickly produce replacement tokens that can be bought, and I don't know how likely it is that a player will end up dropping more mines than they have tokens and them not exploding.

We're just going to have to see how that pans out.

I think you guys misunderstand... I know the token won't do anything. However, if someone decides to be obnoxious about the rules they could use it to complain if someone does not place a token on it. And they would technically be correct to do so. This could pose a problem. For example in my Y-wing scenario what if a player brought only enough tokens to cover his bombs? He might not have brought enough tokens to place 3 per Y-wing. In that case wouldn't he be forced to forgo using Extra Munitions because he can't properly field it? Or what if someone misplaces a few of their tokens? Maybe someone complains about it half way through a tournament match and demands his opponent be disqualified.

I am fully aware this is an exorcise in semantics, but some people do try these sorts of abusive things with rules sometimes. Why risk such a thing when instead they could just throw the word "may" in there somewhere before printing them up?

For example in my Y-wing scenario what if a player brought only enough tokens to cover his bombs?

In a casual game, he should tell his opponent to stop being an ass.

In a tournament match, he should call the TO over and ask the TO to tell his opponent to stop being an ass.

For example in my Y-wing scenario what if a player brought only enough tokens to cover his bombs?

In a casual game, he should tell his opponent to stop being an ass.

In a tournament match, he should call the TO over and ask the TO to tell his opponent to stop being an ass.

Oh, for God's sake. If you want to run list [X], then you must buy or otherwise acquire all of the ships and upgrades involved in list [X]. Otherwise you play something else. If that means playing a lesser list, then you can bloody well suck it up and run the lesser list.

The sense of entitlement from some people on this board is absolutely breathtaking.

The way Extra Munitions is going to be worded it instructs the player to place a munitions token on each Torpedo, Missile, or Bomb upgrade card they have equipped. However, Extra Munitions itself is a Torpedo upgrade. So does this not mean the player has to place a munitions token on Extra Munitions too even though it cannot be used there?

Couldn't you use it to satisfy the Munitions Failure critical hit effect, removing the token from Extra Munitions instead of discarding it and thus keeping your extra munitions for your actual weapons?

The way Extra Munitions is going to be worded it instructs the player to place a munitions token on each Torpedo, Missile, or Bomb upgrade card they have equipped. However, Extra Munitions itself is a Torpedo upgrade. So does this not mean the player has to place a munitions token on Extra Munitions too even though it cannot be used there?

Couldn't you use it to satisfy the Munitions Failure critical hit effect, removing the token from Extra Munitions instead of discarding it and thus keeping your extra munitions for your actual weapons?

Nope. Neither extra munitions or Bomb Loadout are actually secondary weapons (just like how Chaardan Refit is not a secondary). Sure, they occupy the slot of a torpedo, but since they are lacking the "Attack:" heading, they are not considered secondaries. As such, they (along with bombs/mines) are unaffected by Munitions Failure.

Note, the token ON a secondary weapon could be discarded via Munitions Failure.

I am certainly not saying this is some kind of a huge issue or anything guys... I know it isn't. I am just saying maybe it is better FFG fix this issue now before the cards are printed rather than in errata after they are printed.

For example in my Y-wing scenario what if a player brought only enough tokens to cover his bombs?

In a casual game, he should tell his opponent to stop being an ass.

In a tournament match, he should call the TO over and ask the TO to tell his opponent to stop being an ass.

Sounds like you want to ignore an unnecessary rule to allow you to field a specific list.

Oh, for God's sake. If you want to run list [X], then you must buy or otherwise acquire all of the ships and upgrades involved in list [X]. Otherwise you play something else. If that means playing a lesser list, then you can bloody well suck it up and run the lesser list.

The sense of entitlement from some people on this board is absolutely breathtaking.

Shouldn't you just buy what you need to legally play the list? Smells like entitlement.

If you can't differentiate between cheating via proxy cards and confusing one's opponent with insufficient upgrade cards, and abusing a RAW quirk to violate the spirit of a card, then I don't know what to tell you.

Well, I should say I don't know what to tell you besides: begone!

If you can't differentiate between cheating via proxy cards and confusing one's opponent with insufficient upgrade cards, and abusing a RAW quirk to violate the spirit of a card, then I don't know what to tell you.

Notably, it's not even abusing a RAW quirk. There's a handy sidebar on page 21 of the Core Rulebook:

Component Limitations

Asteroid obstacle tokens, all cards, plastic ships, bases, and pegs are limited by the quantities included in this game box.

If players run out of any other tokens, they may use a suitable replacement (such as a coin or bead) as a substitute.

In the unlikely event that an opponent stops mid-game and tries to get you DQ'ed you because you didn't place an ordnance token on your Extra Munitions card, and the TO backs your opponent up for some reason, and you don't have a leftover token to place on the card, the rules are explicit: you can satisfy the letter of the rules by using just about any other small object you have close to hand in place of the missing ordnance token.

Rules Lawyer is lawyering. It is the way of the universe, young padawan.

[quote name="Chris R" post="1596389" timestamp="1430180990of Extra Munitions is going to be worded it instructs the player to place a munitions token on each Torpedo, Missile, or Bomb upgrade card they have equipped. However, Extra Munitions itself is a Torpedo upgrade. So does this not mean the player has to place a munitions token on Extra Munitions too even though it cannot be used there?

Couldn't you use it to satisfy the Munitions Failure critical hit effect, removing the token from Extra Munitions instead of discarding it and thus keeping your extra munitions for your actual weapons?

Nope. Neither extra munitions or Bomb Loadout are actually secondary weapons (just like how Chaardan Refit is not a secondary). Sure, they occupy the slot of a torpedo, but since they are lacking the "Attack:" heading, they are not considered secondaries. As such, they (along with bombs/mines) are unaffected by Munitions Failure.

Note, the token ON a secondary weapon could be discarded via Munitions Failure.

Actually come to think of it isn't a secondary weapon designated by the type of upgrade it is and not what it actually does? After all bomb upgrades are not classed as secondary weapons. I couldn't find in the rules where it specified what qualifies an upgrade as a secondary weapon so I could be wrong and correct me if I am, but if being torpedo upgrades qualifies them as secondary weapons then it could actually be used to discard these otherwise useless tokens instead of those on your actual torpedoes and missiles (bombs of course being already exempt). Or possibly safeguarding against some other type of discarding action which may be planned for later releases which we don't know about yet.

Frankly I seem to vaguely remember something about the rules defining secondary weapons differently from this so I don't think they class as secondary weapons, but the second idea of safegarding against a future upgrade makes more sense. I don't know. It all seems wierd...

Actually come to think of it isn't a secondary weapon designated by the type of upgrade it is and not what it actually does?

Secondary weapons are any upgrade card with the Attack: header. Doesn't matter what type of upgrade they are. Hotshot Blaster, for example, counts as a secondary weapon while being an Illicit upgrade. Chardaan Refit, meanwhile, does not count as a secondary weapon despite being a Missile upgrade.

Secondary weapon is defined in the core rule book P 19. And as allready stated, it is the "Attack:" header and not the type of slot it takes that defines it as a secondary weapon.

The way Extra Munitions is going to be worded it instructs the player to place a munitions token on each Torpedo, Missile, or Bomb upgrade card they have equipped. However, Extra Munitions itself is a Torpedo upgrade. So does this not mean the player has to place a munitions token on Extra Munitions too even though it cannot be used there? Even worse if I put Extra Munitions on a Y-wing with Bomb Loadout in the other Torpedo slot wouldn't I then have to place 3 munitions tokens on this one ship despite only one being usable?

This may seem silly, but I see this as something which some players may try to exploit, and may cause issues with future Torpedo, Missile, and Bomb upgrades that come out.

Dude, I seriously think you're making a mountain out of a molehill. I really can't see any sane players try to exploit anything here. Anyone that tries to, is just being an ass.

Yes, they could have worded it to say 'secondary weapon Upgrade card' instead of just 'Upgrade card', but if you look at the card, they're already pressed for room with making the print much smaller. It's pretty clear it's only meant for the cards that get discarded when they're used.

The way Extra Munitions is going to be worded it instructs the player to place a munitions token on each Torpedo, Missile, or Bomb upgrade card they have equipped. However, Extra Munitions itself is a Torpedo upgrade. So does this not mean the player has to place a munitions token on Extra Munitions too even though it cannot be used there? Even worse if I put Extra Munitions on a Y-wing with Bomb Loadout in the other Torpedo slot wouldn't I then have to place 3 munitions tokens on this one ship despite only one being usable?

This may seem silly, but I see this as something which some players may try to exploit, and may cause issues with future Torpedo, Missile, and Bomb upgrades that come out.

Dude, I seriously think you're making a mountain out of a molehill. I really can't see any sane players try to exploit anything here. Anyone that tries to, is just being an ass.

Yes, they could have worded it to say 'secondary weapon Upgrade card' instead of just 'Upgrade card', but if you look at the card, they're already pressed for room with making the print much smaller. It's pretty clear it's only meant for the cards that get discarded when they're used.

I am certainly not saying this is some kind of a huge issue or anything guys... I know it isn't. I am just saying maybe it is better FFG fix this issue now before the cards are printed rather than in errata after they are printed.

For example in my Y-wing scenario what if a player brought only enough tokens to cover his bombs?

In a casual game, he should tell his opponent to stop being an ass.

In a tournament match, he should call the TO over and ask the TO to tell his opponent to stop being an ass.

Sounds like you want to ignore an unnecessary rule to allow you to field a specific list.

Oh, for God's sake. If you want to run list [X], then you must buy or otherwise acquire all of the ships and upgrades involved in list [X]. Otherwise you play something else. If that means playing a lesser list, then you can bloody well suck it up and run the lesser list.

The sense of entitlement from some people on this board is absolutely breathtaking.

Shouldn't you just buy what you need to legally play the list? Smells like entitlement.

You smell like iPeregrine.

What you see above is an upgrade card. You cannot equip this upgrade card unless your ship has a torpedo upgrade slot. Because the card lacks the ATTACK: header, it is not considered a secondary weapon - even though it is equipped in a slot that can be used by various Torpedoes (i.e. Upgrade cards with the Torpedo icon that include the header, ATTACK: - compare Core Rules, Page 19: Secondary weapon cards show the header 'ATTACK: ' as a reminder that a ship attacks with either its primary weapon or one of its secondary weapons" - found under Secondary Weapons header).

As it is worded, you must place a token on every equipped Upgrade Card of type: Torpedo, Missile, or Bomb. Since this card is an upgrade card of type Torpedo, it follows that you must place a token upon it as well.

Yes, we all agree that this is probably not the intention of the designer, and that it'll probably be either reprinted or errata'd so that you won't need to place a useless token upon this card.

But the idea that someone could exploit this seems like so much buffoonery to me. There is nothing to exploit - this card is obviously not a second weapon, and so it's token will never be removed because you cannnot "spend" this card in an ATTACK to remove the token. As this is self-evident, I doubt anyone will bother to put a token on this card also, or demand that their opponent do so in order to satisfy their OCD comply in the most heinously nit-picking way, with the "rules".

If the card isn't reprinted or errata'd by the time it sees play, and if I happen to be playing with some sad little rule-mongering man (or woman), then I will humor my opponents OCD eccentricity, and put a useless token (or proxy token) on the card, and move on.

Honestly, I think this thread is done.

You smell like iPeregrine.

I did some poking around at old posts, and you might be right. There's quite a bit of stylistic overlap, at least.

If the card isn't reprinted or errata'd by the time it sees play, and if I happen to be playing with some sad little rule-mongering man (or woman), then I will humor my opponents OCD eccentricity, and put a useless token (or proxy token) on the card, and move on.

Thoughts on this: The only cards that could possibly force you to discard a token that are outside of your control are the "Munitions Failure" critical...which still specifies secondary weapons.

Anything fancy that could be done with the token on this card could also theoretically cause an A-Wing to spontaneously lose its Chardaan Refit, somehow making it two points more expensive, throwing the margin of victory and/or total points in the fleet into illegal ranges.

Therefore, we can safely assume that there will never be any shenanigans with the uselesss token.

That being said, I enjoy being a pedant, and if I fly with it, I'll certainly be adding the token to the card, and making a big deal out of it to my opponent.

Won't do it to their cards, though, just mine.