Stop saying "they've run the numbers". There a no numbers to be run. You think they've really run market research and asked customers if they would buy X model if Y card were sold seperately? Absolutely not. It's just their best guess on what they think will make them more money.

You seem awfully sure of that. I doubt that you work for them, or have inside knowledge of their business practices, so I'm curious about where this certitude is coming from. Or are you just pulling this from your nether regions?

I'm just as likely to be right as your "magical number generator" is to be likely. I have just as much proof...

No, people are outraged by the fact that you plan to abuse FFGs generally exemplary customer service which if such abuse becomes a trend then FFG will stop so freely sending replacements to those that actually have a mispacked product.

And yes absolutely I expect FFG to have done some market research before aquirung what had to be an expensive IP and then using that IP to expand thier line of product beyond thier normal board and card game offerings. Successful companies don't make these types of choices without looking into those things. They leave that to forum posters that make unbacked and contradictory claims.

Well, again, FFG only has to blame themselves. Like I said, I'd pay for more cards, I will not pay for ships I don't need. If I guy a starter and a nebulon-B expansion, I should be able to us a xi7 turbolaser on both. I'm not going to buy another ship just to get that card again. They could also allow you to buy the upgrades for each ship even if you only own one card. They've chosen to do neither and be greedy instead, so I've chosen to do the same, if this is a hard business where only dollars and cents matter, and the customer means nothing to them. I'll enjoy my free cards. You guys enjoy being mad I guess.

I'm just as likely to be right as your "magical number generator" is to be likely. I have just as much proof...

Actually you don't. Your premise appears to be that, because FFG doesn't do things the way you want them to, they just operate in a seat-of-the-pants manner, using random guesswork to make their decisions for them. I, on the other hand, think that because FFG appears to be a successful business, they very likely hire people who actually know how to run businesses to help them figure out their financial questions. They've been around for 20 years now, which suggests that they're not operating in a seat-of-the-pants manner.

The fanboy buthurt over the possibility of someone getting cards for free is comically creepy btw. "I'm outraged you'd get some extra cards from poor FFG just cause they want you to buy ships you'll never need to get cards! Outraged I say!".

The response you're getting is due to the way you're advocating and defending fraud and theft. If you had talked about proxying cards you already had one of, this wouldn't be as big of a thing.

I'm not sure why you guys are bothering responding to "DontGiveMeLogic" He's clearly that special blend of both ignorance and arrogance that makes having a discussion impossible.

He can't actually refute any points, or offer a reasonable logical argument to have things his way. So just report his posts and move on.

Here are the indisputable facts...

FFG has said a number of times for X-Wing that selling card only expansions doesn't make sense for them.

You will need to have an official FFG card for every upgrade in your list if you wish to play in a tournament.

You don't actually need those if you're playing friendly/casual games.

Trying to defraud FFG out of cards won't work, they're not going to just blindly send anyone cards just because they claim they didn't come in the pack.

Not a fact but what seems to be true of Armada is that you'll find less need for multiple upgrade cards. Doesn't seem to be an Armada version of Advanced Sensors or Push the Limit.

I'm not sure why you guys are bothering responding to "DontGiveMeLogic" He's clearly that special blend of both ignorance and arrogance that makes having a discussion impossible.He can't actually refute any points, or offer a reasonable logical argument to have things his way. So just report his posts and move on.Here are the indisputable facts...FFG has said a number of times for X-Wing that selling card only expansions doesn't make sense for them.You will need to have an official FFG card for every upgrade in your list if you wish to play in a tournament.You don't actually need those if you're playing friendly/casual games.Trying to defraud FFG out of cards won't work, they're not going to just blindly send anyone cards just because they claim they didn't come in the pack.Not a fact but what seems to be true of Armada is that you'll find less need for multiple upgrade cards. Doesn't seem to be an Armada version of Advanced Sensors or Push the Limit.

The fanboy buthurt over the possibility of someone getting cards for free is comically creepy btw. "I'm outraged you'd get some extra cards from poor FFG just cause they want you to buy ships you'll never need to get cards! Outraged I say!".

The response you're getting is due to the way you're advocating and defending fraud and theft. If you had talked about proxying cards you already had one of, this wouldn't be as big of a thing.

Stop saying "they've run the numbers". There a no numbers to be run. You think they've really run market research and asked customers if they would buy X model if Y card were sold seperately? Absolutely not. It's just their best guess on what they think will make them more money.

Are you seriously suggesting that one of the most successful board game companies in the world dosn't have business analists to determine what products to sell?

This is why people put you on ignore. Your ideas barely make the cut for "wrong."

I hope lots of people report "missing" cards. Would serve them right for trying to take advantage of their customers.

i hope you get caught and suffer the consequences. someone should reverse look up his IP address and out him

i hope you get caught and suffer the consequences. someone should reverse look up his IP address and out him

Just report his post and put him on ignore. Enough people do that and he'll get banned from the boards, won't be the first one that happens to.

Ridiculous.

The fanboy buthurt over the possibility of someone getting cards for free is comically creepy btw. "I'm outraged you'd get some extra cards from poor FFG just cause they want you to buy ships you'll never need to get cards! Outraged I say!".

The response you're getting is due to the way you're advocating and defending fraud and theft. If you had talked about proxying cards you already had one of, this wouldn't be as big of a thing.

It couldn't happen to a more customer friendly company... I hope lots of people report "missing" cards. Would serve them right for trying to take advantage of their customers. The most profitable road isn't always the best.

Most likely result is they stop sending replacements. Your childish antics only end up hurting people legitimately didn't get cards in their product. So congrats on that. I doubt you actually care about anyone else, though.

Edit: And saying that FFG isn't customer friendly is hilarious. Someone on this forum got a Star Destroyer model with a broken antenna. That's a minor, cosmetic defect that doesn't affect gameplay in any way. They sent him a new one. That's about as customer friendly as I've ever heard from a miniatures company.

The fanboy buthurt over the possibility of someone getting cards for free is comically creepy btw. "I'm outraged you'd get some extra cards from poor FFG just cause they want you to buy ships you'll never need to get cards! Outraged I say!".

The response you're getting is due to the way you're advocating and defending fraud and theft. If you had talked about proxying cards you already had one of, this wouldn't be as big of a thing.

It couldn't happen to a more customer friendly company... I hope lots of people report "missing" cards. Would serve them right for trying to take advantage of their customers. The most profitable road isn't always the best.

Most likely result is they stop sending replacements. Your childish antics only end up hurting people legitimately didn't get cards in their product. So congrats on that. I doubt you actually care about anyone else, though.

Edit: And saying that FFG isn't customer friendly is hilarious. Someone on this forum got a Star Destroyer model with a broken antenna. That's a minor, cosmetic defect that doesn't affect gameplay in any way. They sent him a new one. That's about as customer friendly as I've ever heard from a miniatures company.

That someone was me. Unfortunately the new Vic's antenna was also broke...lol. Now I have 2 VSD's but only one base to play it on. Of course I AM NOT going to tell FFG that my base was broken to get a second. I am hugely impressed with their customer Service. I had the VSD in my hands two days later. Trying to defraud a company because you don't agree with their business practices is mind-numbingly wrong. I am seriously considering linking this guy's original post in an email to Customer Service.

It's FFG's business decision to make.

However, I have never chased upgrade cards, and I won't start. I will however use the tools and resources to get proxies of what I want, while still supporting FFG's better business decisions through the purchases of expensive miniatures. This is mainly a miniatures game, not a CCG, and if FFG feels the need to put key balance upgrades into new packs, then I don't feel the need to buy them when there are alternatives. And don't worry, I don't play tournaments so I won't be taking your precious shiny baubles.

I mean honestly guys, all the card images are online within a day, and there's this thing called color laser printers, cardstock paper, and card protector sleeves.

I mean honestly guys, all the card images are online within a day, and there's this thing called color laser printers, cardstock paper, and card protector sleeves.

Which no one is really against. You want to use proxies for friendly games, either at home or in a LGS that's fine. I don't think anyone has said they'd have an issue with that. Heck I'd be fine if you had a index card or something that had the name on it.

The issue is when people go to tournaments with proxies, or worse think they can email FFG customer support and get free copies of them via fraud.

I mean honestly guys, all the card images are online within a day, and there's this thing called color laser printers, cardstock paper, and card protector sleeves.

Which no one is really against. You want to use proxies for friendly games, either at home or in a LGS that's fine. I don't think anyone has said they'd have an issue with that. Heck I'd be fine if you had a index card or something that had the name on it.The issue is when people go to tournaments with proxies, or worse think they can email FFG customer support and get free copies of them via fraud.

So you support a pay to format then?

I mean honestly guys, all the card images are online within a day, and there's this thing called color laser printers, cardstock paper, and card protector sleeves.

Which no one is really against. You want to use proxies for friendly games, either at home or in a LGS that's fine. I don't think anyone has said they'd have an issue with that. Heck I'd be fine if you had a index card or something that had the name on it.The issue is when people go to tournaments with proxies, or worse think they can email FFG customer support and get free copies of them via fraud.

So you support a pay to format then?

Most games produced by companies require you to use the company's product to compete in official tournaments. This isn't exactly a new or unusual thing...

Try going to an MTG tournament with proxies because you didn't want to drop $200 on 4 Arid Mesas.

I generally nab one of each expansion, and then if I need more give it a go with a proxy or two before buying myself more. Often this ends up dissuading me from the extra purchases as the lists don't work out like I had hoped. Don't tournament much myself, so it works well, and I'm more then willing to borrow/purchase to make it happen for a tourney.

Truth is I'd be fairly miserable if FFG's offerings declined, or unimaginably ceased, so I am quite willing to toss money at them. Add in to that the fact I've played many of my FFG games in to the ground, twice needing to buy new copies due to wear 'n tear, and I feel like the least I can do is kick them down some money when I can.

FFG has acquired a number of licenses over the years, and they have taken a lot of risks with those in order to bring us new games. Some are better then others, but most are fun, and all try something new. They coulda gone the route of slapping a new name on an old product and churning that out to make money, but they didn't. They try new things, giving us new ways to enjoy properties new and old. If the price for that is a buying model that is a little inconvenient and pricier then I'd like, so be it. The more they make on the big ventures, the more they can risk on the small. We also don't know how their licensing works at all, but there is a good chance it factors in to this argument and the fees for such could be what makes selling these things impractical.

FFG produced extra cards packs for Death Angel, a game that couldn't have sold 1/10th what X-Wing did. So their reluctance to produce card packs isn't based on the cost to produce them. (so print on demand won't help). As long as X-Wing players continue to buy expansions just to get a card or two, FFG would be turning money away by producing pack of those cards. Blame the players, not FFG.

I mean honestly guys, all the card images are online within a day, and there's this thing called color laser printers, cardstock paper, and card protector sleeves.

Which no one is really against. You want to use proxies for friendly games, either at home or in a LGS that's fine. I don't think anyone has said they'd have an issue with that. Heck I'd be fine if you had a index card or something that had the name on it.The issue is when people go to tournaments with proxies, or worse think they can email FFG customer support and get free copies of them via fraud.

So you support a pay to format then?

Most games produced by companies require you to use the company's product to compete in official tournaments. This isn't exactly a new or unusual thing...

Try going to an MTG tournament with proxies because you didn't want to drop $200 on 4 Arid Mesas.

Having recently gotten into both X Wing and Armada, I noticed the issue with upgrade cards pretty much right away. A friend of mine linked a really good list builder that showed which expansion each card came in, and I was very disappointed to see how it's currently set up with a lot of good cards only available for one faction or the other. I wondered why they didn't do either a print on demand set or just release a big pack of cards with everything. Now, having seen what the response was, i see why.

And yeah, I don't really care that much.



So, unless I choose to enter an official FFG tournament this limited availability will never effect my life one bit. In a casual game no one in their right mind would try to enforce that. I'm a small league with some locals, no one would care. For official tournaments.... I don't need to enter them. I don't care at all. Hell, FFG could impose a dress code for their events. I just don't care. That's entirely on them.


None of that will stop me from enjoying the game with my friends.


I'm not thrilled about it, and I'd love to see them change that, but I likely won't and have zero interest in getting worked up over it. It would be super lovely if they at least ensured that all the generic upgrades ended up in multiple ships for each faction.


I care more that the games are both great. I care more that the figures are incredible. I care more that the rules are clear. I care more that I'm having fun with my friends.

If I ever choose to enter an official tourney....screw it, the stuff I need is on eBay. They'll sell it to me.

Well, again, FFG only has to blame themselves. Like I said, I'd pay for more cards, I will not pay for ships I don't need. If I guy a starter and a nebulon-B expansion, I should be able to us a xi7 turbolaser on both. I'm not going to buy another ship just to get that card again. They could also allow you to buy the upgrades for each ship even if you only own one card. They've chosen to do neither and be greedy instead, so I've chosen to do the same, if this is a hard business where only dollars and cents matter, and the customer means nothing to them. I'll enjoy my free cards. You guys enjoy being mad I guess.

Or....you could just play with the one copy of the turbolaser card you have. No one is forcing you to buy a second ship. Use the points for something else. A card you have, maybe. Be creative. Use tactics and strategy to win games.

Oh, but you really want that second card? Ok, proxy. As everyone here has said, it's not a big deal unless you play tournaments.

Oh, wait, you want to play in a tournament with the second card? Ok, buy one off of eBay.

Oh, wait, you "can't be bothered" to source your own card legally? I guess THEN it's ok to lie and potentially degrade the response for those who actually have a genuine problem - because clearly FFG has left you no other choice!

On the other hand guys. That card that FFG has stockpiled, it cost them less than a US cent, or close to a cent. The postage to send a replacement card? It's just a basic postage stamp, probably less since they have a bulk business rate.

And it literally is a stockpile, because they have plenty of these cards on hand to send out as needed and they're going to constantly reprint them. What's more, they're unwilling to issue errata or changes via the rules and updates to cards. This leaves certain ships or builds as a problematic spot in the meta-game, which is entirely their fault for not balancing it the first place. Then they put these much needed balance upgrades in expensive packs. The TIE Advanced is the biggest example of this.

All you here getting self-righteous over one guy gaming a pretty rigged system already need to understand that even if someone is being dishonest and getting free cards, he's not exactly robbing the poor, nor is he robbing from you. Because as much as he is dishonest, he is still playing a system that's been stacked by FFG to maximize their profits at the cost of gameplay balance and interest.

EDIT: Oh and let's let another truth drop here guys. All of us here have paid the $60-$100 entry fee. All of us will be buying those pretty miniatures they make that are marked up from the pennies it costs to make them. And we'll gladly do it, because it's a good and fun game that FFG has made. That includes the guy that's dishonestly obtaining free cards, he has still paid the money and will still be buying more miniatures. So you can't say he's stealing much at all from FFG, or anyone, because he's literally paid them much much more to start playing.

FFG has a really great customer service policy. You say you're missing a card, or even that your VSD has a bent antenna, they send you a new one. If people abuse the policy, the policy will go away.

In brick & mortar stores, return policies for legitimate returns have gotten more and more restrictive over the last decade because of people abusing the system to steal things.

I don't see why it's immoral to print your own copy of a card to use for your own games. It's not stealing from FFG to print a card anymore than it is stealing from George Lucas if I were to build a homemade light-saber and Darth Vader costume.

The only reason I'd ever buy a 40 dollar expansion 'just for the card' is to enter an official tournament.

And I highly doubt FFG would 'lose' money if they sold the cards seperately. It's more likely that they wouldn't make as much money but that's something entirely different.