There is also no justification for FFG trying to gouge customers

I love it that someone can actually think they're being gouged when talking about a luxury item...

There is also no justification for FFG trying to gouge customers who want more than one copy of an upgrade card.

Gouge is a very subjective word. What you call gouging, I call a viable business strategy.

Regardless, even if this were gouging, it wouldn't justify fraud and theft.

Edit: I'm not thrilled to have to buy multiple models to get multiple cards either, but I don't pretend that it somehow makes theft and fraud moral.

Good for you? When all is said an done I'll have given FFG plenty of my money, I'm not going to waste more of it on ships I don't need, just to get a card... Don't pretend like it isn't FFG, and FFG alone creating this situation. You get around it the way you see fit, and I'll do the same.

Ok. Just don't complain when the rest of us call you a thief and a liar.

I've been called worse... Some guy's opinon of me on the internet means less than nothing to me... I'm willing to bet that if FFG sold cards seperately, that they would make more profits off those, than the handful of ships they might sell to the people looking for extra cards.Most people are just going to print them out.

There is also no justification for FFG trying to gouge customers

I love it that someone can actually think they're being gouged when talking about a luxury item...

When they state that their financial strategy is to NOT sell cards seperate so that they can get people to buy more ships, yeah I call that gouging, or shady, or some other words that would get my post deleted.

So it's shady for a game company to get you to purchase thier product? Gotcha.

So it's shady for a game company to get you to purchase thier product? Gotcha.

Yep, that's exactly what I said.

I'm willing to bet that if FFG sold cards seperately, that they would make more profits off those, than the handful of ships they might sell to the people looking for extra cards.

If that were true, then why aren't they doing it? I mean they have looked at it, ran the numbers on how much they would make if they sold card only expansions. If they would make more money that way then why wouldn't they do that?

Since the bottom line is what matter most, why in the world would they not do something that improved that?

When they state that their financial strategy is to NOT sell cards seperate so that they can get people to buy more ships

Which is directly contrary to your above point... So which is it? Why would they want to sell more ships if they could make more money some other way?

Honestly you should change your name to NeverTellMeTheLogic because that's what you really don't want to hear.

Again, how can it be gouging when it's not something you actually need in the first place? No one is putting a gun to your head and making you buy a game. This is a luxury item, not a guy selling bottles of water in the desert for $25 per.

I'm willing to bet that if FFG sold cards seperately, that they would make more profits off those, than the handful of ships they might sell to the people looking for extra cards.

If that were true, then why aren't they doing it? I mean they have looked at it, ran the numbers on how much they would make if they sold card only expansions. If they would make more money that way then why wouldn't they do that?

Since the bottom line is what matter most, why in the world would they not do something that improved that?

When they state that their financial strategy is to NOT sell cards seperate so that they can get people to buy more ships

Which is directly contrary to your above point... So which is it? Why would they want to sell more ships if they could make more money some other way?

Honestly you should change your name to NeverTellMeTheLogic because that's what you really don't want to hear.

Again, how can it be gouging when it's not something you actually need in the first place? No one is putting a gun to your head and making you buy a game. This is a luxury item, not a guy selling bottles of water in the desert for $25 per.

When did I ever say their strategy was right/the most profitable? I simply stated what it was. I'm sure GW thought that continually hikeing their prices was the best strategy to sales drops, has it worked out? Big companies don't always make the best business desissions.

When did I ever say their strategy was right/the most profitable? I simply stated what it was.

So you can't actually back up your assertion that they'd make more money by doing it some other way.

You also can't defend your statement that it's gauging. You've also suggested that people commit fraud, which wouldn't work FFG doesn't send out extra cards because of people like you.

Don't bother responding, you have earned the dubious honor of being the only person currently on my ignore list. We get it, you don't like the system, but can't actually provide a logical or reasonable argument for it be different.

You sling terms around like gauging for a Luxury item, and make the same old BS response of 'they'd make more money if they did it my way' which has never once been proven true.

Simple fact is, if you want the upgrade cards you have to buy the expansions or buy them on Ebay, if you don't like it then either make due without them or play something else.

I don't understand why FFG can't just offer upgrade cards via Print On Demand? From my understanding it is all done in house, they don't have to wait for the boat to arrive and they only need to print what is ordered vs a giant order that when it runs out they have to wait for reprinting. It seems fairly simple, although I admit I don't know what all goes into a POD expansion, but it seems to be working since they really utilize it for other games. I just hope they utilize it for cards in X-Wing and Armada, then hopefully the ships will be more readily available to customers who actually want to buy the ships for their fleet.

I don't understand why FFG can't just offer upgrade cards via Print On Demand? From my understanding it is all done in house, they don't have to wait for the boat to arrive and they only need to print what is ordered vs a giant order that when it runs out they have to wait for reprinting. It seems fairly simple, although I admit I don't know what all goes into a POD expansion, but it seems to be working since they really utilize it for other games. I just hope they utilize it for cards in X-Wing and Armada, then hopefully the ships will be more readily available to customers who actually want to buy the ships for their fleet.

One word, greed.

I don't understand why FFG can't just offer upgrade cards via Print On Demand?

Because they have ran the numbers and found that they would lose money by doing it that way. The upgrade cards help sell expansions pure and simple.

Some people don't care for this, but it's still less expensive than the way other games do it. Like producing a new codex every year or so that makes whole armies legal so you have to buy half your army again. Or producing new models that are so powerful you don't have any real option but to buy them.

FFG needs to do something to make sure people buy their stuff, and the upgrade cards is part of that.

I don't understand why FFG can't just offer upgrade cards via Print On Demand?

Because they have ran the numbers and found that they would lose money by doing it that way. The upgrade cards help sell expansions pure and simple.

Some people don't care for this, but it's still less expensive than the way other games do it. Like producing a new codex every year or so that makes whole armies legal so you have to buy half your army again. Or producing new models that are so powerful you don't have any real option but to buy them.

FFG needs to do something to make sure people buy their stuff, and the upgrade cards is part of that.

Yeah, cause producing a game that's fun, that people want to play isn't good enough... I'd also like to see this "numbers running" program/machine they use...

Yeah, cause producing a game that's fun, that people want to play isn't good enough... I'd also like to see this "numbers running" program/machine they use...

No doubt they have business analysts on staff whose job is to track that sort of thing. It's really not controversial, and every company that's large enough to need them has them. Maybe you should try and apply for a position at FFG as a business analyst, since you clearly have diagnosed a problem that they haven't discerned yet. I'm sure if you present your evidence, it'll help your chances, since they are a business and not a charity.

How is it greed if not just a few posts back you asserted they'd make more money selling cards by themselves?

How is it greed if not just a few posts back you asserted they'd make more money selling cards by themselves?

Don't let logic get in the way of someone's rant... Clearly he knows more about FFG's business then they themselves do. If they were to sell cards alone, there's no way they'd charge more than he'd consider reasonable for them... So not only would they make a profit, everyone would get all the cards they want for cheap.

I'm unsure why there's gnashing of teeth here. Every single game company that sells expansion or blister packs works with this model: You buy a whole pack just so you can get that one card. Wizards does this, FFG does this, everyone else does this. When have any of you seen a big collectibles company sell singles of a card? The only times you can ever buy singles is at an LFGS who themselves either had to open up several blister packs, or have had players trade or sell them that card.

So in the end, the same thing will happen here. You'll buy a ship with several upgrade cards, a friend will buy a different ship with several upgrade cards, and you and your friend will trade upgrade cards you feel are better for your respective builds. The only difference here is the in cost as each expansion is priced for the plastic bits rather than the paper ones.

I'm unsure why there's gnashing of teeth here. Every single game company that sells expansion or blister packs works with this model: You buy a whole pack just so you can get that one card. Wizards does this, FFG does this, everyone else does this. When have any of you seen a big collectibles company sell singles of a card? The only times you can ever buy singles is at an LFGS who themselves either had to open up several blister packs, or have had players trade or sell them that card.

So in the end, the same thing will happen here. You'll buy a ship with several upgrade cards, a friend will buy a different ship with several upgrade cards, and you and your friend will trade upgrade cards you feel are better for your respective builds. The only difference here is the in cost as each expansion is priced for the plastic bits rather than the paper ones.

This has actually been a long-standing issue that has bled over from the X-Wing forum. There are a subset of posters who dislike the fact that certain cards are only available in certain expansions (most recently, the Epic-scale Raider). The complaints are usually either economic ("I can't afford it") or collecting-related ("I don't play X, so I don't want to have to buy expansion Y just for card Z"). The proposed solution is usually along the lines of a card release or card+cardboard release. FFG has repeatedly said that they will not be doing card-only releases for X-Wing, and there's no reason (so far) to believe that they will take a different tack for Armada. No doubt they have run the numbers, and found that it just doesn't work out financially for them. That hasn't stopped some amateur economists from arguing otherwise.

People do seem to have a sense of entitlement, yes. This is no different than Magic players seeing some special card they really want for their deck coming out with a new expansion ... and then spending potentially a couple of hundred dollars on blister packs hoping to get it (especially if it's rare).

At least with FFG's LCG approach, you *know* where that card is and only need to spend the 15-50 bucks on the ship to get it. Would these people rather use the standard collectibles model instead?

And again, nothing stops you from trading. Hell, you can even trade ships ... every expansion comes with cards for two marks of that particular model, so you can easily just get the additional plastic ship if you don't mind playing with different marks rather than two of the same.

Looks like a lot of my expansions will be "missing" the equipment cards... If they'd don't want to sell them to me, I'll have to go that route...

no one is forcing you to play the game...

playing a game by no means justifies immoral activity. if you don't understand that, maybe this game is more your speed

Looks like a lot of my expansions will be "missing" the equipment cards... If they'd don't want to sell them to me, I'll have to go that route...

From Kant's point of view that's immoral. That would damage whole idea of good customer service. All of that just because you want second copy of a card you would seldom use.

Why don't you buy it from second hand instead?

I'd gladly give FFG my money if they would sell them. I'm not going through the trouble of trying to find them second hand. And as a reble player, there are most certainly cards that I would use 2 and 3 of.

I found the problem here. You are on the wrong side , just come on over to the dark side and then only getting one card per box is not an issue, you need the second model if you are going to use a second card.

How is it greed if not just a few posts back you asserted they'd make more money selling cards by themselves?

Again, I'll try and explain this slowly... they THINK they can milk customers for more of their money, by only selling the cards with the ships... Again, where did I say they were right/smart?

I'm unsure why there's gnashing of teeth here. Every single game company that sells expansion or blister packs works with this model: You buy a whole pack just so you can get that one card. Wizards does this, FFG does this, everyone else does this. When have any of you seen a big collectibles company sell singles of a card? The only times you can ever buy singles is at an LFGS who themselves either had to open up several blister packs, or have had players trade or sell them that card.

So in the end, the same thing will happen here. You'll buy a ship with several upgrade cards, a friend will buy a different ship with several upgrade cards, and you and your friend will trade upgrade cards you feel are better for your respective builds. The only difference here is the in cost as each expansion is priced for the plastic bits rather than the paper ones.

This has actually been a long-standing issue that has bled over from the X-Wing forum. There are a subset of posters who dislike the fact that certain cards are only available in certain expansions (most recently, the Epic-scale Raider). The complaints are usually either economic ("I can't afford it") or collecting-related ("I don't play X, so I don't want to have to buy expansion Y just for card Z"). The proposed solution is usually along the lines of a card release or card+cardboard release. FFG has repeatedly said that they will not be doing card-only releases for X-Wing, and there's no reason (so far) to believe that they will take a different tack for Armada. No doubt they have run the numbers, and found that it just doesn't work out financially for them. That hasn't stopped some amateur economists from arguing otherwise.

Stop saying "they've run the numbers". There a no numbers to be run. You think they've really run market research and asked customers if they would buy X model if Y card were sold seperately? Absolutely not. It's just their best guess on what they think will make them more money.

The fanboy buthurt over the possibility of someone getting cards for free is comically creepy btw. "I'm outraged you'd get some extra cards from poor FFG just cause they want you to buy ships you'll never need to get cards! Outraged I say!".

Stop saying "they've run the numbers". There a no numbers to be run. You think they've really run market research and asked customers if they would buy X model if Y card were sold seperately? Absolutely not. It's just their best guess on what they think will make them more money.

You seem awfully sure of that. I doubt that you work for them, or have inside knowledge of their business practices, so I'm curious about where this certitude is coming from. Or are you just pulling this from your nether regions?

No, people are outraged by the fact that you plan to abuse FFGs generally exemplary customer service which if such abuse becomes a trend then FFG will stop so freely sending replacements to those that actually have a mispacked product.

And yes absolutely I expect FFG to have done some market research before aquirung what had to be an expensive IP and then using that IP to expand thier line of product beyond thier normal board and card game offerings. Successful companies don't make these types of choices without looking into those things. They leave that to forum posters that make unbacked and contradictory claims.