I have been running a group since the core book dropped (~400 earned XP) and finding myself in an interesting situation regarding the force user in the party. He's acquired a Force Rating of 3 with a fully upgraded Move tree. The easiest way to describe my problem is just how big and how far can you really throw something?

1st Example: You are being chased by a trio of speeder bikes (SIL 2) across Nar Shadaa. They are at long range and the force character rolls an average Discipline check based on their SIL size and generates 3 light side pips. That is enough to throw a bike(s?) basically anywhere within extreme range of its starting position, say into oncoming traffic? Assuming the guy on the bike is a minion, I'd probably say he crashes and burns and no need for collision rules. For a Rival or Adversary, I'd probably use Piloting checks and collision crit rules. How is this sounding so far? Would you include setback on the discipline due to the wild nature of the chase or would the simple fact that someone is actively piloting the bike change the difficulty to an opposed piloting check?

2nd Example: You and your team have just been surrounded by more of the pursuing villians and this time they brought their SIL 4 gunship to finish you off. Am I correct in assuming that RAW says you can make a daunting Discipline check to fling the ship up to extreme range, say into a building as a single action? How would you run this? Would the ship take 40 damage of normal scale or 4 ship scale damage? What if instead of a building, you throw it at a person? Just...splat?

I guess what I'm getting at is just exactly how powerful do you let your move power play in game? When it comes down to it, I'm starting to get a little scared that my BBEG isn't going to last more than a round against someone throwing around freighter sized objects.

Any insight would be appreciated.

1st Example: You are being chased by a trio of speeder bikes (SIL 2) across Nar Shadaa. They are at long range and the force character rolls an average Discipline check based on their SIL size and generates 3 light side pips. That is enough to throw a bike(s?) basically anywhere within extreme range of its starting position, say into oncoming traffic? Assuming the guy on the bike is a minion, I'd probably say he crashes and burns and no need for collision rules. For a Rival or Adversary, I'd probably use Piloting checks and collision crit rules. How is this sounding so far? Would you include setback on the discipline due to the wild nature of the chase or would the simple fact that someone is actively piloting the bike change the difficulty to an opposed piloting check?

If it were a minion, you sound about right. I would absolutely add a couple of Setback for traffic and would probably also spend a Dpoint and upgrade that check to make despair more likely.

And yeah, if it's a rival and especially Nemesis, you are totally allowed to use the characters piloting skill as the difficulty.

2nd Example: You and your team have just been surrounded by more of the pursuing villians and this time they brought their SIL 4 gunship to finish you off. Am I correct in assuming that RAW says you can make a daunting Discipline check to fling the ship up to extreme range, say into a building as a single action? How would you run this? Would the ship take 40 damage of normal scale or 4 ship scale damage? What if instead of a building, you throw it at a person? Just...splat?

In the case of man vs gunship... splat, though I'd again add some setback to the check because those little people are tough to hit.

For the Gunship vs building, I'd actually say the gunship can ignore the damage (which is an option). It's Sil 4 with armor, so it can take some punishment. The building (unless it's a hardened bunker or something) is designed to withstand wind and rain, not Sil 4 Gunships. If the player rolled a Triumph, I might allow that to count as a glancing blow. In this case i would absolutely Dpoint that check. Despair and the building comes down.

In both cases I'd probably also slam him with some conflict if the despair caused bystanders to be killed or injured. Awesome only goes so far with you accidentally ram it through a crowded city bus....

Make sure you keep him to the Extreme range too, thats "Close" for vehicle engagements, so if he is involved in vehicle scale combat he can only just affect other vehicles that are very close to him.

The Object probably shouldn't move from extreme in one direction to extreme in another instantly either, if you think its moving a long distance possibly suggest it may take a turn to move it that far.

You could allow people targeted in this way to roll vigilance, coordination, discipline etc to see a large object coming and jump clear.

Also what if the BBEG caught the shuttle with his move power and threw it back?

Also what if the BBEG caught the shuttle with his move power and threw it back?

Can I offer you a nice tall glass of conflict?

Well a follow-up then:

What is to stop a PC from using move to throw your adversaries straight up in the air to extreme range and just letting them fall to their deaths, besides conflict? This is assuming against a non force using NPC, so I wouldn't oppose it with discipline. An easy check wipes out an encounter? Is there a logical defense against it? On the flip side, if this adversary is there to kill the PCs, would it really be worth a full 10 conflict for simply defending themselves? Certainly one of the non-morality based characters has no problem shooting a rocket into this aggressor's chest. He was probably going to die anyway.

What is to stop a PC from using move to throw your adversaries straight up in the air to extreme range and just letting them fall to their deaths, besides conflict? This is assuming against a non force using NPC, so I wouldn't oppose it with discipline. An easy check wipes out an encounter? Is there a logical defense against it? On the flip side, if this adversary is there to kill the PCs, would it really be worth a full 10 conflict for simply defending themselves? Certainly one of the non-morality based characters has no problem shooting a rocket into this aggressor's chest. He was probably going to die anyway.

Even if they're defending themselves, dropping an enemy from such a height would still reasonably cause conflict since they're picking a particularly torturous/messed up way to kill somebody. It's one thing to do a quick bonk on the head to kill them, it's another to have somebody fall for 20+ seconds straight to a painful death. So you probably shouldn't give them 10 conflict since they're defending themselves, but unless it's absolutely necessary for some crazy reason, they shouldn't get 0 conflict either.

If all the NPCs are just weak minions or whatever, then they don't really have any resistance, so yes, a player can freely just drop them if they choose to. But important adversaries/Nemeses are going to have chances to resist and force an opposed roll. Narratively, the logical defense against this is that you both need to be outside/in a building with a high roof (can't lift to Extreme if the roof is Medium range), and the narrative implications of just openly showing your force powers in such a dramatic way (which could lead to Obligation).

What Lathrop said.

This was discussed at length earlier, and an easy way to sort it out on the moral/ethical angle is to ask "How would the player accomplish this same effect without the force?"

In the case of tossing someone up into the air and letting them drop, the answer to that question is "By forcing the person to the top of a building, and then pushing them off." Last I checked that goes a little beyond "defending yourself."

So.... if the person is there to kill the player... and the player knocks the person out, ties him up, carries him to the top of a building and shove him off...*flips to pg 220 and looks at table 9-2* You're looking at a minimum of 8-10 conflict... possibly per character.

Furthermore you could even add a little more Conflict for totally taking the Easy out. The character is essentially using the force to violently autocomplete a difficult situation that someone without the force would have to really work to accomplish. Pretty sure that's a darkside solution.

And comparing that to shooting a rocket at someone is sort of like like trying to say using a flamethrower in combat is the same as locking your enemies in a church and burning it down. One is the unpleasantness of war, the other is a war crime...Can I offer you a nice tall glass of Obligation?

As for mechanical countermeasures. Fight indoors. Fight outdoors on an asteroid in space suits. Fight in a place with metal floors and magnetic boots. Give all adversaries Gravity Belts. Fight underwater. Fight in the air with everyone in jetpacks. And of course... Ysalimiri.

1. the force doesn't care about you, do a bad thing and you get conflict; e.g. murder 1 to save a million, you still murdered 1...

What is to stop a PC from using move to throw your adversaries straight up in the air to extreme range and just letting them fall to their deaths, besides conflict?

Nothing can stop them, provided they make the rolls you challenge them with. It's one of the reasons I dislike the Move power as written...it allows for some very un-Star Warsy stuff.

If you're not concerned about that but just want a way to make such activities more challenging for the PCs, some good answers have already been given.

If you're concerned that it's OP and want an alternative, pm me and I'll send you a more "canon" version.

What is to stop a PC from using move to throw your adversaries straight up in the air to extreme range and just letting them fall to their deaths, besides conflict?

Nothing can stop them, provided they make the rolls you challenge them with. It's one of the reasons I dislike the Move power as written...it allows for some very un-Star Warsy stuff.

If you're not concerned about that but just want a way to make such activities more challenging for the PCs, some good answers have already been given.

If you're concerned that it's OP and want an alternative, pm me and I'll send you a more "canon" version.

i think any PC could torture someone in game with very little effort, the reason they don't is because of the morality of the situation. same as walking into a refugee camp with a Heavy Repeating Blaster and making a blood bath... if a GM thinks something shouldn't be done but physically is possible, then its probably the morality of the situation thats at question.

Yoda would have absolutely no problems lifting a squad of storm troopers a couple of hundred feet and dropping them, so why doesn't he? Morality, he knows it wrong.

1st Example: You are being chased by a trio of speeder bikes (SIL 2) across Nar Shadaa. They are at long range and the force character rolls an average Discipline check based on their SIL size and generates 3 light side pips. That is enough to throw a bike(s?) basically anywhere within extreme range of its starting position, say into oncoming traffic? Assuming the guy on the bike is a minion, I'd probably say he crashes and burns and no need for collision rules. For a Rival or Adversary, I'd probably use Piloting checks and collision crit rules. How is this sounding so far? Would you include setback on the discipline due to the wild nature of the chase or would the simple fact that someone is actively piloting the bike change the difficulty to an opposed piloting check?

If you read the rules correctly, the starting range is Close range. The range upgrade only increases the powers maximum range, not the starting range. So in order to throw that speeder bike, it needs to be in close range (personal scale). Same for the gunship.

To be able to throw that speeder bike, if it was in close range, up to long range with only 3 light side pips, you need to have the basic power with 2x range upgrade, 2x strength upgrades and the control upgrade for a total of 50xp. Getting 3 light side pips on a regular basis, you need to have Force Rating of 3 ; the cheapest tree is Consular Sage for 70xp + 65xp for a total of 135 xp. Since most players invest all their starting XP in characteristics, that character would probably need to be Knight Level and really focused : one trick pony. If not, then it's a high-XP game.

There are plenty of ways to counter that Force power... you just have to plan your encounters around it to make sure he can't use it to screw your encounter... many great suggestions up here.

For the speeder bikes, just keep them out of close range.... anyway they always shoot with a difficulty of PP plus defensive bonus. Also remember that defensive bonus and adversary still affects the discipline check.

And for the Morality check on dropping someone from long range is cold blooded murder... while fighting the guy you could reason with him, he could try to flee if he's about to loose, or surrender, you could knock him out senseless.... throwing him to his death is removing these options from the equations... it's at least resorting to violence as the first solution... but more then violence, it's murder... I'd probably give the player 5 conflict for doing it the first time, increasing the conflict received each times he does it again.

Hope it helps.

1st Example: You are being chased by a trio of speeder bikes (SIL 2) across Nar Shadaa. They are at long range and the force character rolls an average Discipline check based on their SIL size and generates 3 light side pips. That is enough to throw a bike(s?) basically anywhere within extreme range of its starting position, say into oncoming traffic? Assuming the guy on the bike is a minion, I'd probably say he crashes and burns and no need for collision rules. For a Rival or Adversary, I'd probably use Piloting checks and collision crit rules. How is this sounding so far? Would you include setback on the discipline due to the wild nature of the chase or would the simple fact that someone is actively piloting the bike change the difficulty to an opposed piloting check?

If you read the rules correctly, the starting range is Close range. The range upgrade only increases the powers maximum range, not the starting range. So in order to throw that speeder bike, it needs to be in close range (personal scale). Same for the gunship.

To be able to throw that speeder bike, if it was in close range, up to long range with only 3 light side pips, you need to have the basic power with 2x range upgrade, 2x strength upgrades and the control upgrade for a total of 50xp. Getting 3 light side pips on a regular basis, you need to have Force Rating of 3 ; the cheapest tree is Consular Sage for 70xp + 65xp for a total of 135 xp. Since most players invest all their starting XP in characteristics, that character would probably need to be Knight Level and really focused : one trick pony. If not, then it's a high-XP game.

There are plenty of ways to counter that Force power... you just have to plan your encounters around it to make sure he can't use it to screw your encounter... many great suggestions up here.

For the speeder bikes, just keep them out of close range.... anyway they always shoot with a difficulty of PP plus defensive bonus. Also remember that defensive bonus and adversary still affects the discipline check.

And for the Morality check on dropping someone from long range is cold blooded murder... while fighting the guy you could reason with him, he could try to flee if he's about to loose, or surrender, you could knock him out senseless.... throwing him to his death is removing these options from the equations... it's at least resorting to violence as the first solution... but more then violence, it's murder... I'd probably give the player 5 conflict for doing it the first time, increasing the conflict received each times he does it again.

Hope it helps.

I completely misread the range upgrade until now. My brain instinctively went to increase maximum starting range as well as maximum throw distance. This is a colossal clarification for me. When said PC did attempt to throw a SIL 3 ship into a building, he was at extreme range (which I now know is incorrect) and was immediately slapped with conflict. I effectively took the gunship out of combat but the innocent bystanders who were thrown clear of the crash were now dangling over the vast expanse that separated them from the city floor. The PC immediately blew a talent to use move again to save most of the them (again wrong distance) and did the same action in the following round. It was not the encounter I was hoping to run but knowing what I know now should help future fights.

What Lathrop said.

This was discussed at length earlier, and an easy way to sort it out on the moral/ethical angle is to ask "How would the player accomplish this same effect without the force?"

In the case of tossing someone up into the air and letting them drop, the answer to that question is "By forcing the person to the top of a building, and then pushing them off." Last I checked that goes a little beyond "defending yourself."

So.... if the person is there to kill the player... and the player knocks the person out, ties him up, carries him to the top of a building and shove him off...*flips to pg 220 and looks at table 9-2* You're looking at a minimum of 8-10 conflict... possibly per character.

Furthermore you could even add a little more Conflict for totally taking the Easy out. The character is essentially using the force to violently autocomplete a difficult situation that someone without the force would have to really work to accomplish. Pretty sure that's a darkside solution.

And comparing that to shooting a rocket at someone is sort of like like trying to say using a flamethrower in combat is the same as locking your enemies in a church and burning it down. One is the unpleasantness of war, the other is a war crime...Can I offer you a nice tall glass of Obligation?

As for mechanical countermeasures. Fight indoors. Fight outdoors on an asteroid in space suits. Fight in a place with metal floors and magnetic boots. Give all adversaries Gravity Belts. Fight underwater. Fight in the air with everyone in jetpacks. And of course... Ysalimiri.

You absolutely nailed it. It IS the quick and easy path to resolving a fight - a true dark side solution.

This has been wonderful. Thank you all for your insights.

I completely misread the range upgrade until now. My brain instinctively went to increase maximum starting range as well as maximum throw distance. This is a colossal clarification for me. When said PC did attempt to throw a SIL 3 ship into a building, he was at extreme range (which I now know is incorrect) and was immediately slapped with conflict. I effectively took the gunship out of combat but the innocent bystanders who were thrown clear of the crash were now dangling over the vast expanse that separated them from the city floor. The PC immediately blew a talent to use move again to save most of the them (again wrong distance) and did the same action in the following round. It was not the encounter I was hoping to run but knowing what I know now should help future fights.

Starting Move range has been unofficially errata'd. First post under "The Force"

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/108101-ffg-developer-answered-questions/

By default a Force user can move an object at short range. If I activate all three range upgrades, would my character be able to move an object that is starting at Extreme range from my character, or just move an object from short range all the way to extreme range if I want?

Answered by Sam Stewart :

...

To your second question, range upgrades increase the range that you can start effecting objects.

so the starting range is not the limiting factor, the PC's understanding of the consequences of the Dark Side is.

Yoda would have absolutely no problems lifting a squad of storm troopers a couple of hundred feet and dropping them, so why doesn't he?

Maul, Dooku, and Sidious don't either, so....morality has little to do with it. My intention isn't to hijack the thread to debate it, I just wasn't sure if the OP felt that Move was overpowered...if not, no problem.

I completely misread the range upgrade until now. My brain instinctively went to increase maximum starting range as well as maximum throw distance. This is a colossal clarification for me. When said PC did attempt to throw a SIL 3 ship into a building, he was at extreme range (which I now know is incorrect) and was immediately slapped with conflict. I effectively took the gunship out of combat but the innocent bystanders who were thrown clear of the crash were now dangling over the vast expanse that separated them from the city floor. The PC immediately blew a talent to use move again to save most of the them (again wrong distance) and did the same action in the following round. It was not the encounter I was hoping to run but knowing what I know now should help future fights.

Starting Move range has been unofficially errata'd. First post under "The Force"

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/108101-ffg-developer-answered-questions/

By default a Force user can move an object at short range. If I activate all three range upgrades, would my character be able to move an object that is starting at Extreme range from my character, or just move an object from short range all the way to extreme range if I want?

Answered by Sam Stewart :

...

To your second question, range upgrades increase the range that you can start effecting objects.

That is good to know.... I never noticed that post there.

Thanks for the clarification.

Yoda would have absolutely no problems lifting a squad of storm troopers a couple of hundred feet and dropping them, so why doesn't he?

Maul, Dooku, and Sidious don't either, so....morality has little to do with it. My intention isn't to hijack the thread to debate it, I just wasn't sure if the OP felt that Move was overpowered...if not, no problem.

I try to use this line sparingly in my GMing experience, but sometimes it's important to note to your players "Any thing a PC can do, so can an NPC".

Yoda would have absolutely no problems lifting a squad of storm troopers a couple of hundred feet and dropping them, so why doesn't he?

Maul, Dooku, and Sidious don't either, so....morality has little to do with it. My intention isn't to hijack the thread to debate it, I just wasn't sure if the OP felt that Move was overpowered...if not, no problem.

Very good point that there is clearly no in universe rebuttal for. But perhaps Mr. Lucas thought that a bit out of taste for the intended audience and rating... what if Tarantino was writer/director though! (suddenly an entire campaign idea springs to mind)