Your opponents are very kind to let you just slowly roll up on them like that.

Your opponents are very kind to let you just slowly roll up on them like that.

Battlefield control. With a HLC the Defender and Ties can have it in spades. Especially given the Defenders ability to scram at a moments notice and still win the range game on the way back in.

A simple "yes I play against opponents who let me dictate terms to them" would have been enough.

A simple "yes I play against opponents who let me dictate terms to them" would have been enough.

Yup, always useful and well thought out counterpoints here...

Ignorio ignorio, wherefore art tho buttonio?

A simple "yes I play against opponents who let me dictate terms to them" would have been enough.

Yup, always useful and well thought out counterpoints here...

To be fair, the post he was replying to is evocative of a player either entirely new to the game, or "experienced" in the art of theorycrafting, that lacks a hundred or more battles under their belt.

To start with, an HLC is about the worst thing you could put on a Defender ever (an odd weapon on release, it feels **** near purpose-built for the substantially-undercosted B-Wing, and so is appropriately slightly over-costed as a result - which pairs terribly with the already-overcosted Defenders). But to then pile on the idea of 'slow rolling' a Defender...which is over-costed solely on the concept of its ability to simply blast around the battlefield at crazy speeds, flipping around without penalty, and then zooming off another direction...

It's pure "I've never played this game, but here is my theorycrafting" at it's most refined.

Wait, you think the HLC is overcosted?

Anything on a Defender is overcosted.

But HLC on a B-wing. No thank you. Not worth the points.

It's meant to augment the power of bigger ships. B-wings are up close monsters. Not snipers.

HLC and a slow rolling Defender is by far the best way to play them, as they're fantastic endgame, and a gamble to approach if they're hanging back. It's pretty easy for them to zip off and let the remaining 60ish points of your opponents ships get in an ideal flanking position.

And if they engage the 60 points that HLC is gonna cause a lot of hurt.

Try the same thing with a B-wing and it can't get away, leaving it an isolated kill.

If that is all it does, then no.

Here's the rationale that I presented on the NOVA podcast when we covered wave 4 Imperials:

1. All else being equal, having a turret is always superior to having a fixed forward firing arc and a better dial, even if that dial had every maneuver in the game as a green move.

The Defender's statline cost efficiency is on par with the better turreted ships.

Therefore the generic Defender's cost efficiency problems can't be solved by changing it's dial. To be viable, it needs some combination of decreasing its cost, increasing it's damage, or increasing its durability.

I would offer a point of dissent here (while also noting that, yup, Defenders are pretty clearly not a competitive ship, as none have populated the competitive scene):

Albeit it requires that your opponent make a critical mistake (closing too close to the Defenders), creating Koiogran Alley (2+ defenders that pinch the opposing ships and begin swapping K-turns that box-in the opponent) is a better situation than both ships just having a turret, in my opinion. You have the same effective field of field, but you're able to do something the turret cannot: maintain a static (or nearly static) board position. Your opponent will have to bug out from the cage, and it's usually pretty easy to just pursue them and set-up an identical cage at that point.

Your opponents are very kind to let you just slowly roll up on them like that.

Battlefield control. With a HLC the Defender and Ties can have it in spades. Especially given the Defenders ability to scram at a moments notice and still win the range game on the way back in.

to elaborate: white 4k

the enemy gets to close and you secure joust superiority with that maneuver, especially against ships with sub 4ks that just can't keep up with the defender's sustained 180s

closing in on a defender isn't a done deal, especially on the table. In forumwing, though, everything is easy

Ignorio ignorio, wherefore art tho buttonio?

Assuming at some risk that this question isn't rhetorical, click on your portrait anywhere in the site. Click "Edit My Profile" at the top right. Select "Ignore Preferences" from the list of tabs at the left, then scroll to the bottom and type the name of the poster you'd like to ignore in the box labeled "Add a new user to my list." Check the box labeled "Posts" at the right, then "Save Changes."

... the substantially-undercosted B-Wing ...

Sayeth what now?

... the substantially-undercosted B-Wing ...

Sayeth what now?

What part of "the Wave 2 HLC was deliberately overpriced so that it would fit on the Wave 3 B-wing, which is underpriced because please be distracted by my hand-waving now" did you not understand?

... the substantially-undercosted B-Wing ...

Sayeth what now?

cant believe I missed this

guess those "100 or more battles under their belt" don't count for much

Since when did everyone suddenly decide that BBBBZ is not a bit OP a list?

The named Bs are fine, but the majority of the 'named' ships are.

The generic Bs are probably about a point cheaper than they should be, in a rather clearer cost deficiency than a lot of other value arguments that are going on.

The only conclusion I can make is that I've missed a memo somewhere, because this is all news to me.

4BZ is really good, but it's one of many very good lists right now. It's certainly not winning more than its fair share of tournaments.

Generic B-wings aren't underpriced. Everything else bar the Z-95 and Chardaan A-wing is horrifically overpriced. Hence the everything else is not played and the B-wing is.

Anything on a Defender is overcosted.

But HLC on a B-wing. No thank you. Not worth the points.

It's meant to augment the power of bigger ships. B-wings are up close monsters. Not snipers.

HLC and a slow rolling Defender is by far the best way to play them, as they're fantastic endgame, and a gamble to approach if they're hanging back. It's pretty easy for them to zip off and let the remaining 60ish points of your opponents ships get in an ideal flanking position.

And if they engage the 60 points that HLC is gonna cause a lot of hurt.

Try the same thing with a B-wing and it can't get away, leaving it an isolated kill.

I've called the men in white coats to take you to the madhouse.

HLC on a defender is amazing be it the generic or a named pilot, Rexler never goes out without one and its a very rare game where he kills less than three ships and he eats large ships for breakfast.

Anything on a Defender is overcosted.

But HLC on a B-wing. No thank you. Not worth the points.

It's meant to augment the power of bigger ships. B-wings are up close monsters. Not snipers.

HLC and a slow rolling Defender is by far the best way to play them, as they're fantastic endgame, and a gamble to approach if they're hanging back. It's pretty easy for them to zip off and let the remaining 60ish points of your opponents ships get in an ideal flanking position.

And if they engage the 60 points that HLC is gonna cause a lot of hurt.

Try the same thing with a B-wing and it can't get away, leaving it an isolated kill.

I've called the men in white coats to take you to the madhouse.

HLC on a defender is amazing be it the generic or a named pilot, Rexler never goes out without one and its a very rare game where he kills less than three ships and he eats large ships for breakfast.

Delta+HLC is 37 points. Rex+HLC is 44! Throw on an EPT and half of your squad's points is in one 3/3, non-turret, ship! Just like any small based ship, Rex has a bad dice throw or two and he's gone from the game. The risk/reward balance is not there for the Defender.

Last week I runned 3 Alphas + Rexler,HLC,LW

Rexler was flanking from left, the 3 Alphas from right in close formation.

Lost 2 Alphas but Rexler killed the rebels and finally won the game with 2 hull left.

Dice went average for both sides.

As my opponent, would you first go for Rexler or the Alphas?

Depends on my own list.

Alphas have good combined firepower but easier to kill. they also shoot last. Because of that quick killing them seems probably the way to go.

Thats what my opponent tried to - but then he failed to block Rexler's obvious k-turns...

and with 2 Alphas less - one fleeing more or less - Rexler could use LW to the full potential.

I really like that list.

Then it's a tactical error on his part. the Tie Defender's big weak spot is the Kturn predictability. God knows that's caught me out before.

Yeah ... mess with Rexler early and the Alphas will eat you.

But in the end its a risky list. A fun list. I had fun.

Last week I runned 3 Alphas + Rexler,HLC,LW

Rexler was flanking from left, the 3 Alphas from right in close formation.

Lost 2 Alphas but Rexler killed the rebels and finally won the game with 2 hull left.

Dice went average for both sides.

As my opponent, would you first go for Rexler or the Alphas?

I'm starting to really like Alphas with Autothrusters. Fun 20 point ships.

If this list sat across the table from me I would go aver Rex first. He's 46 points worth of your squad and I'm willing to bet I'll end up on the plus side in MOV scoring after downing him.