For people are wondering why they would make usable on all TIE models if it would only benefit the Defender, Bomber and maybe Punisher, it's because TIE only is easier to fit on a tiny upgrade card then "TIE Defender, TIE Bomber and TIE Punisher only".

Yeah, I really don't get the hangup people have on this.

I mean, FFG didn't need to specify 'not usable on the TIE Advanced, TIE Defender, TIE Bomber, etc' on the Targeting Computer mod. Indeed, technically you CAN put that mod on those fighters...it just doesn't do anything. You can put an Engine Upgrade on a TIE Interceptor or A-Wing, too. Again, it won't do anything. But it's still possible to do.

Having 'TIE Only' on this upgrade is perfectly consistent with other upgrades FFG has released - they are being succinct enough to provide instructions on where it's usable, without providing a huge list of fighters that it may or may not actually have any effect on.

'TIE Only' also covers their bases going forward - what if it is the much-guessed 'turn all hard turns to white' that so far only benefits the TIE Defender, TIE Bomber, and TIE Punisher...and FFG spells out TIE Defender, TIE Bomber, and TIE Punisher on the card...and then a year from now FFG releases a new TIE Fighter with some hard red turns. Either the card would have to be errata'd at that point, or it would not apply to that ship. Both options kinda silly.

'TIE Only' covers that base.

I don't care if the ship has every conceivable maneuver on the dial in green, including S-loops, backwards 1's, and whatever else you can imagine. It is still strictly inferior to having a turret, because it still needs to maintain a firing solution to shoot. The generic Defenders are essentially paying to have a turret, and all they got was a white K-turn.

Hey that might make a good T-shirt!

"I paid for a turret and all I got was a white K-turn!"

A dial is not just about getting guns on a target, though. It's about avoiding shots, avoiding blocks, and negotiating obstacles as well.

For the record, I would probably buy that T-shirt, though.

Most dials, even the best, are only slightly better than the Hawk at managing most of these.

The Shuttle is worse. But functionally Interceptors are proof you can get by with only your two speed manuevers.

The big additions to arc dodging are extra-dial manuevers.(Boost, etc...)

Boost and Barrel Roll surely help, but longer white or green moves give you more places you can consistently be, and that makes it harder to draw a bead on you.

They do. But then you often find yourself also not shooting and in a position where you can't get them in arc for several turns.

I've not found this to be the case in my own experiences, but even so, that's not necessarily a bad thing, as dodging an arc means they aren't shooting at you either. Armament and obstacles depending, a couple of turns to re-position can be a good thing.

not to dispute the idiocy of turrets, but until the k-wing (2 dice primary) gets here there are no primary turret ships on small bases and the only turret that can pack a cannon is the YT-2400 (though that too can be made into a turret). I wouldn't make it such a straight comparison given the implications of base size, especially with tournaments now allowing you to bring your own obstructions.

The K-Wing is being born with a 2-dice attack into a world with Autothrusters. An extra attack dice is a premium that usually warrants a 50% increase in points (Academy -> Alpha), so we would expect the K-Wing to get a huge discount for only attacking with 2 dice instead of 3, and will probably get an even slightly bigger discount because it was designed with autothrusters in mind, because 2 atk will never damage to a ship with 3 agility, autothrusters and a focus token.

Well that's kind of why I pointed out (2 attack) in the first place. The K-wing is not going to be any good as just a small base turret, so the defender still has that distinct advantage.

But to be fair, a K-wing won't "never" harm 3 agility + auto-thrusters. It will almost never harm 3 agility and auto-thrusters, it still possesses the ability to (even focus + evade + thrusters can be denied with blocks whereas a turret has no counterplay). Meanwhile, ships will never not be a viable target for the k-wing if it has the k-wing as a viable target (outside asteroids, ofc)

In practice, the difference is very minute (don't count on hurting 3 agility + auto-thrusters) and won't come into play until that 1 in 100 games, but in terms of design the difference is absolutely massive.

The K-Wing is being born with a 2-dice attack into a world with Autothrusters. An extra attack dice is a premium that usually warrants a 50% increase in points (Academy -> Alpha)

Off-topic, but the actual value of going from 2 dice to 3 is more like 33%, which is why the PS1 TIE Interceptor doesn't get used. (Boost is great, but not so much at PS1 and isn't good enough to make back the cost difference).

The K-Wing is being born with a 2-dice attack into a world with Autothrusters. An extra attack dice is a premium that usually warrants a 50% increase in points (Academy -> Alpha)

Off-topic, but the actual value of going from 2 dice to 3 is more like 33%, which is why the PS1 TIE Interceptor doesn't get used. (Boost is great, but not so much at PS1 and isn't good enough to make back the cost difference).

Eh, I've done alright with lists using 5x Alpha Autoceptors. It's a weird feeling using an Interceptor to set up blocking, but if you can break up your formation well enough to manage a collision with one Interceptor that keeps the rest of your squadron at long range...the impacted ship cannot be shot at, and the range increase (and loss of action on the enemy ship) really increases the effectiveness of autothrusters...

It's not awful, but you've definitely got to run them LIGHT, and fly them more like Academy Pilots than normal Interceptors (IE., blocking, blocking, blocking!), which is...weird.

Yes but it's a modification to the Engine on all the ships. Going by its name. If theyy wanted something to help only the bigger fatter ships they could have gone with something that fit the concept better.

If upgrading a ties engine does nothing for the smaller ships what's the point of having that upgrade. Why would it only affect the fat ships?

That's terrible writing and ffg is smarter than that.

Well, maybe FFG gave the TIE Fighter and Interceptor Twin Ion Engines, but forgot that the other TIE models had them as well. So now we get to modify our TIE ships so they all have the same engine and same performance.

Terrible writing would be filling half of that tiny upgrade's text box with the names of 3 ships that all have the word TIE in them.

The K-Wing is being born with a 2-dice attack into a world with Autothrusters. An extra attack dice is a premium that usually warrants a 50% increase in points (Academy -> Alpha)

Off-topic, but the actual value of going from 2 dice to 3 is more like 33%, which is why the PS1 TIE Interceptor doesn't get used. (Boost is great, but not so much at PS1 and isn't good enough to make back the cost difference).

Eh, I've done alright with lists using 5x Alpha Autoceptors. It's a weird feeling using an Interceptor to set up blocking, but if you can break up your formation well enough to manage a collision with one Interceptor that keeps the rest of your squadron at long range...the impacted ship cannot be shot at, and the range increase (and loss of action on the enemy ship) really increases the effectiveness of autothrusters...

It's not awful, but you've definitely got to run them LIGHT, and fly them more like Academy Pilots than normal Interceptors (IE., blocking, blocking, blocking!), which is...weird.

I agree with you that autothrusters has made the 5x Alpha list more viable in someone with the means and ability to use it (5 Interceptor Expansions and 3 Starviper expansions is an investment), but MJ also has a point that they still haven't proven themselves a competitive list through tournament results. Only a 0.28% presence in the meta since wave 3 with a 0.22% presence in elimination rounds means that they're both unpopular and unsuccessful for the people that do choose to run them.

MJ's also right that and extra attack dice is probably worth 33%, not 50%, but we're getting off-topic.

I think Twin Ion Engine will be 0 points to turn all red turns into white turns, but that it will 1 of 2 fixes coming to the TIE Defender. I think the developers are still afraid of that white K-turn and are going buff the Defender in increments, so as not to accidentally create a monster with too much of a buff at once.

Keep in mind people that the card isn't,

"Twin Ion Engines" it is

"Twin Ion Engine something"

The spacing on the words makes it clear that there is an extra word, probably pretty short, after engine.

We also don't know for certain that it is a modification, could be a title. I think the spacing of the text makes title more likely, but that could be argued.

Yes but it's a modification to the Engine on all the ships. Going by its name. If theyy wanted something to help only the bigger fatter ships they could have gone with something that fit the concept better.

If upgrading a ties engine does nothing for the smaller ships what's the point of having that upgrade. Why would it only affect the fat ships?

That's terrible writing and ffg is smarter than that.

Well, maybe FFG gave the TIE Fighter and Interceptor Twin Ion Engines, but forgot that the other TIE models had them as well. So now we get to modify our TIE ships so they all have the same engine and same performance.

Terrible writing would be filling half of that tiny upgrade's text box with the names of 3 ships that all have the word TIE in them.

TIE/x1s without the TIE/x1 title don't suddenly stop being TIE/x1s.

Will the defender be more viable? It's two biggest complaints are its high cost and poor dial. If you eliminate the red turns but increase its cost by 1, will it be the monster we all remember? I know it will still not be among the most cost efficient, but it is a durable, fast fighter, and if all its turns were white, it would have a quite powerful dial.

Do you somehow know that the upgrade is for tie fighters and that it changes red to white?

Do you somehow know that the upgrade is for tie fighters and that it changes red to white?

We can see in the card spread that the card says "tie only", so it presumably will be able to be equipped on any of the 7 TIE series ships in the game, but we don't know if it will be USEFUL on all of them.

The text of the card that we can see clearly references maneuvers and is formatted similarly to the r2 astromech card that changes all maneuvers of a certain type to a different color.

See nigeltastic's analysis in post # 50 for what the options might be.

The Defender needs a free fix. Right now you can only fly three of them. Any fix that runs with a cost will take away one's ability to run 3 with Ion cannons.

I still hold to my belief that ANY small ship that a player can not run 4 of inside of 100 points is over priced.

That's an awfully narrow view, don't you think? A ship you can't run four of is overpriced solely by virtue of its base size? That is to say, if we made the Falcon small based (an advantage over a large base usually) it would suddenly be overpriced?

A base Firespray has 4 shields, 6 Hull, TWO firing arcs, and a better dial at 33 points (not to mention the crew and title upgrades). So no, I don't think I have a narrow view at all.

The falcon wouldn't have the same stats if it was on a small base. That's a very narrow view of his narrow view you have there.

And the reason my view is not narrow is for exactly the reason PewPewPew pointed out. No small base would (or should) have the states of a large base ship. Thank you for the assist Triple P.

Every small based ship in the game can field at least 4 base copies for 100 points, except the E-wing and the Defender. Those ships have something in common; they are over priced. Only Horn is used from the E-wing pilots available and I doubt he would be used if it wasn't for his amazing ability. The two named Defender pilot's abilities leave much to be desired. Vessery may get more use after the Raider is released. The Rebels hand out Focus and TLs like candy. It's too bad the named Defender pilots can't defect to the Rebels where they could actually USE their pilot abilities.

Every small based ship in the game can field at least 4 base copies for 100 points, except the E-wing and the Defender. Those ships have something in common; they are over priced. Only Horn is used from the E-wing pilots available and I doubt he would be used if it wasn't for his amazing ability. The two named Defender pilot's abilities leave much to be desired. Vessery may get more use after the Raider is released. The Rebels hand out Focus and TLs like candy. It's too bad the named Defender pilots can't defect to the Rebels where they could actually USE their pilot abilities.

eh.... not sure if that's a great meteric

4 X-wings haven't been good since Wave 1, for example. Just because you can field four of them it doesn't necessarily mean that they are appropriately priced.

Ditto on the generic Viper, a nice little ship for sure (and looks amazing in multiples) but it's way too much of a crapshoot at 25 points imo

Before we being, I'll put this post in the context of the quote of yours I'm disputing.

"I still hold to my belief that ANY small ship that a player can not run 4 of inside of 100 points is over priced."

Any small ship. In that post you assert that if a ship is small-based and it is over 25 points, then it is overpriced. Automatically. End of. Regardless of statline. If after this thread you go on to qualify that that isn't what you meant, that is still what you said.

And the reason my view is not narrow is for exactly the reason PewPewPew pointed out. No small base would (or should) have the states of a large base ship. Thank you for the assist Triple P.

Because?

The Aggressor has the stats of a TIE defender with Hull and Shield Upgrades. It's not a far cry from the Defender. Would the TIE phantom be overpriced at one point more? Would it be overpriced at 27 points if they'd designed it with another hull point? Would the TIE defender be overpriced if they'd made it more like its XvT series depiction at something like 4/3/3/4? Because that's not an unreasonable depiction of XWA's nerfed TIE defender.

A base Firespray has 4 shields, 6 Hull, TWO firing arcs, and a better dial at 33 points (not to mention the crew and title upgrades). So no, I don't think I have a narrow view at all.

Again, all you've said here is that the Firespray is better than the Defender. That doesn't explain how mounting a ship on a small base makes it inherently overpriced if over 25 points. The Aggressor is small enough that, considering the size of the K-wing and TIE punisher, they could have put it on a small base and gotten away with it. Would it suddenly become overpriced if they did so?

Every small based ship in the game can field at least 4 base copies for 100 points, except the E-wing and the Defender. Those ships have something in common; they are over priced.

All that says is that the two existing small based ships over 25 points are overpriced. To say that means that a 26 point small ship is somehow inherently overpriced is correlation equals causality, which is the same logic that gives us Lack Of Pirates Causes Global Warming.

You haven't said that every 26+ small based ship that currently exists is overpriced. You've said a ship is overpriced if it means the conditions "Has Small Base" and "Costs Over 26 Points." A ship with a 3/3/4/4 statline at 26 points with an Aggressor's dial meets those conditions, so by your logic it's overpriced. That you don't believe they'd make such a ship does not make your logic valid: they can, and they can put it on a small base.

Saying that every small based ship that currently exists over 25 points is overpriced is one thing, saying that being overpriced is an instrinic quality of any small based ship over 25 points is like saying a 60 point large ship is automatically overpriced regardless of its statline. It's not only narrow thinking, it's fallacious thinking.

A base Firespray has 4 shields, 6 Hull, TWO firing arcs, and a better dial at 33 points (not to mention the crew and title upgrades). So no, I don't think I have a narrow view at all.

Again, all you've said here is that the Firespray is better than the Defender. That doesn't explain how mounting a ship on a small base makes it inherently overpriced if over 25 points. The Aggressor is small enough that, considering the size of the K-wing and TIE punisher, they could have put it on a small base and gotten away with it. Would it suddenly become overpriced if they did so?

to support this argument, putting Aggressors as currently implemented on a small base would have broken the game like a Rancor breaks victims between its teeth.

The large base and single arc are the Aggressor's only real weaknesses given their hilarious profile, potent (free) title, access to amazing upgrade slots, and some incredibly potent pilot abilities. Those two features combined are what gives every list the means to counter them: obstructions and blocking (as opposed to "we don't have a PS 7 pilot, so I guess we're ******").

Having a large footprint makes maneuvering around the table more difficult because you're going faster (large base displacement) are you're four times as likely to smack into something (especially the most dreaded of obstacles: the table edge). This greatly limits the maneuverability of large ships except in the case of turrets, who can go wherever and still get shots off.

Having a small base is an incredible advantage that many overlook (not because being on a large base is particularly advantageous apart from the wider arc, but more because the idiotic primary turret rules combined with large base displacement, plentiful health, guaranteed defenses, and m.o.v shenanigans make fatties some of the most infuriating ships in the game)

In the firespray's case, having a fat ass is a fairly significant disadvantage (especially coupled with a complete lack of boost or roll). To compensate, it has decent stats, a minimum ps of 3 (outside predator range), and an auxiliary arc.

... and the PS3 Imperial Firespray is still almost certainly overcosted. Even the PS5 Merc might be overcosted, and it's a relative bargain compared to the Bounty Hunter.

awww, but I like the Bounty Hunter

I can't play it well at all, but I like it

That's because it has 10 hull, so it can't get 1-shot like a TIE, because of, what are they called...

oh yeah.. something something green dice!

... and the PS3 Imperial Firespray is still almost certainly overcosted. Even the PS5 Merc might be overcosted, and it's a relative bargain compared to the Bounty Hunter.

Is it? +2 pilot skill for +2 points. I was under the impression (from your MathWing thread) that's usually a bad deal.

Yeah, you get an EPT and Illicit slot, but you've got to pay for anything you put in those.

... and the PS3 Imperial Firespray is still almost certainly overcosted. Even the PS5 Merc might be overcosted, and it's a relative bargain compared to the Bounty Hunter.

Is it? +2 pilot skill for +2 points. I was under the impression (from your MathWing thread) that's usually a bad deal.

Yeah, you get an EPT and Illicit slot, but you've got to pay for anything you put in those.

It depends on what the base ship costs. Using the cheapest TIE or Z-95 as the reference point, the pivot point where it makes sense to pay 1:1 is when the cheapest base ship costs 24 points or more. Hence why YT-1300 and VT-49 named pilots are such an absurdly good value. And the EPT slot is absolutely worth something, probably worth an extra "tick" in PS just by itself. So 3 ticks for 2 points is a good deal when the base ship is already well over 24 points (PS1 adjusted cost). Of course it may still not be enough to make it worthwhile, we'll see. But it's better than the Imperial Bounty Hunter.

A dial is not just about getting guns on a target, though. It's about avoiding shots, avoiding blocks, and negotiating obstacles as well.

You have to avoid shots while getting shots on the other guy, otherwise he is avoiding you, and the relative firing duty cycle is not in your favor. Even just getting out of a swarm's way, the turret can do a better job because the entire dial is open.

Same deal with avoiding obstacles and blocks -- with a turret you can actually pull off the move you need to while still getting a shot off.

Sometimes no shots by either side are better for you than shots by both sides. If you're trying to avoid a bunch of swarmers, getting hit by your turret is an acceptable price to pay for bringing all their guns to bear. That's a bad exchange. If you have a series of moves you can make that have end points far enough away from each other, the swarmers will have to either pick one or spread their shots. I'm not saying that turrets are bad, or that a good dial is always better, but to categorically say that a crap dial with a turret is always better than a good dial with fixed guns is ignoring a lot of interactions in the game. If a player can arc dodge a swarm using only a Falcon's greens and Boost, I salute them whole-heartedly. I don't think I could manage that.

Just to toss a dissenting opinion into the mix with respect to the TIE defender and its problems:

(*) I was an early supporter of the ship, and I still like it. I wish it were cheaper or had a better dial.

(*) The Defender doesn't pay a 7-point tax on its stat line any more than the B-wing pays a 2.4-point tax. In the model I'm privately (and slowly) putting together, the actual gap between the Defender's cost and its stat line is more like 3 points.

(*) I also think that 3-point gap could be crossed, at least in large part, by a sufficiently good dial. For instance, if the Defender used a YT-2400 dial with a white 4K instead of a red one, you'd be looking at a dial without weaknesses. If you also went ahead and made those 1-turn maneuvers green, you'd be looking at pretty clearly the best dial in the game--one that's as good in comparison to a "typical" dial as the Lambda's is bad.

Just to toss a dissenting opinion into the mix with respect to the TIE defender and its problems:

(*) I was an early supporter of the ship, and I still like it. I wish it were cheaper or had a better dial.

I like the ship too, I just don't think it is anywhere near hitting its target metrics.

FYI the B-wing only pays a 1.5 point tax once you take PS into account. Using slightly more accurate numbers for 3 attack dice (that aren't reflected in my MathWing post at the moment), it's more like 1.25 points. That's certainly acceptable for the intangibles that it has, and good enough to use in a jousting list like BBBBZ.

A 4 point stat line difference predicted by our models is a significant difference when translated to expected damage output and required efficiency to break even! If it really were only paying a 3 point tax, then the white K should already be good enough to pull it up into usability. There is strong empirical evidence that's not the case, which means that either your model is wrong and/or the white K-turn isn't worth 3 points.

Also not considered in MathWing 2.0/2.5: action economy of 3/3/x/x ships is poor because they frequently don't have focus available to spend on both offense and defense. (A point you brought up a while ago). Factoring this in hurts the Defender even more.

But if you did that, would it not be treading on the Interceptor's toes? An all white dialed TIE defender sounds like fun, but green 1 turns makes it beg for PTL so it can dance with the squints.

There is strong empirical evidence that's not the case, which means that either your model is wrong and/or the white K-turn isn't worth 3 points.

One problem with trying to quantify dials is that unlike a statline their value isn't static: it depends on both players. The white K-turn has a psychological effect (every move the defender makes is threatening to do that white K-turn) and how much you get out of it depends on how the players react to it. If both players get into a literal joust, that white K turn is immensely valuable. Against a PTL squint, not so much.

But if you did that, would it not be treading on the Interceptor's toes? An all white dialed TIE defender sounds like fun, but green 1 turns makes it beg for PTL so it can dance with the squints.

Only works on Vessery and Rexler, and would want Engine Upgrade, which would be mutually exclusive with the "TIE... whatever it is" if it's a modification.