I will clarify my statement that in a mirror match, the "bad dial, turret" should beat the "good dial, fixed guns" every time. A dial with lots of movement options can do a lot to maintain proper range positioning over a dial without lots of movement options. If you have a weapon with distinct range advantages at certain ranges (like the Defender's cannon slot), a dial that helps you maintain long ranges in fights is really useful. A slow turret can't do much of this. A fast ship with fixed guns can.

I know it's impossible to know, but I'd be genuinely interested to see what the movement breakdown of MajorJuggler's Falcon was in his games. I feel like the 1-turn and long straights are really good moves on the YT-1300. HWKs can't pull those. Maybe we fly differently. I think pulling all greens in a YT is only really practical in a meta without swarms. It's too easy to block that big base otherwise. This is only my own experience of course.

I think that's why he said, "All else being equal". Sure, if there is an optimum range to be shooting at, (say you have an HLC and the turreted ship doesn't, etc. etc.) but that's a bit of a corner case. All else being equal, turrets trump maneuvers because if you never have a shot on a R1-3 turret where he cannot shoot you back, while he could potentially have a shot on you where you cannot fire back. It's a pretty clear cut thing, I thought. But again, the key phrase is all else being equal.

Except all things are never equal. There's no ships that have the same stats, and same price, one with a turret and one without. What I'm saying is that a Delta Squadron Pilot with a HWK dial and a turret will always beat a Delta Squadron Pilot with super-dial and fixed guns, most interactions end up being much more complex than that. That's where a better dial starts being important. Specific interactions are very important in this game. Say I've got a Delta Defender with HLC fighting against 3 Academy Pilots. A HWK dial/turret HLC means the TIEs will have a pretty good idea of where I'll be. They can probably jump the range 3 band where I have the biggest advantage and get to range 1 and 2 where they can start doing serious damage fast. It will just be a dice-fest back and forth and the APs will usually win. The Delta Defender with it's current dial has a higher chance of getting the opening shot in the range 3 band where it gets 4 defense dice against 2 attack dice. It also can try and blow through the TIEs with a 5 straight or run away with 3 turns, all before coming around with the 4k. The TIE/lns don't know where it will be and have to guess at possible locations. If they guess right, great, if they guess wrong, the Defender gets more opportunities to take shots in a really good position.

I know it's impossible to know, but I'd be genuinely interested to see what the movement breakdown of MajorJuggler's Falcon was in his games. I feel like the 1-turn and long straights are really good moves on the YT-1300. HWKs can't pull those. Maybe we fly differently. I think pulling all greens in a YT is only really practical in a meta without swarms. It's too easy to block that big base otherwise. This is only my own experience of course.

Yeah, I don't think I have any vassal logs of it outside the tournament. I only recall getting blocked once in 2 tournaments, by the TIE mini-swarm. Engine on a large base ship is a big deal, but only works because you can boost to get out of dodge (or at least create separation) and still maintain shots with your turret.

Sure, and I'm thinking that the more swarms/mini swarms are popular, the harder it is for a turret to get by on a HWK's dial. That's not to diminish your performance, but I think it's a situation where the better dial starts mattering a lot more.

Swarms are effective because, much like turrets, they have superior coverage, but leverage a lot more firepower. A good Tie Swarm will eat Falcons alive. Hell, I've taken down good Falcon lists with 4 A-wings and a Titleless outrider.

The tie swarms suffer against other situations and have other issues. But in a one on one scenario with no autothrusters the turret ships beats the non turret ship. One of the best thigs about dual aggressor lists is how badly they maul turrets and swarms. But they'll die fast against other, less durable, more firepower heavy lists.

I think the agressor zhowcases the Defender's issue perfectly.

They cost virtually the same(PS bid included).

But the Agressor is more durable, more modifyable, and has an amazing comparable if not superior dial.

Thanks for the analysis there nigeltastic. I've been wanting to look at it that way since the article went up and just haven't had the time.

I will clarify my statement that in a mirror match, the "bad dial, turret" should beat the "good dial, fixed guns" every time.

Also not true, assuming equally costed and balanced ships. Turrets are expensive.

Well, that's the whole point, if the 2 ships were identical in every other way, including stats and cost, then the turret and the Super-Dial would be equally expensive. And the turret would win. And that's the rationale that predicts why the generic Defenders were DOA even before I saw their dial.

What I meant is the turret has an associated cost, so on two equally costed ships the turreted one will have lower stats.

If the assumption is that the ship has a dial so good that it's equal to the turret in statline then it'll be 50/50 if the dialship keeps it in arc and its chances get worse for every missed shot when it gets arcdodged by the turret. Thing is, is the turret going to be able to arcdodge with a terrible dial? The successful turretships have some of the best dials in the game.

Moreover, the turret will lose to an equally costed ship with a normal dial, because that ship puts the points that go into the superdial or turret into stats. The superdial however can arcdodge and stands a much better chance.

Common sense. If it's Tie Only it's not going to affect 3 of 7 tie units.

And why not? TIE only doesn't mean it affects all TIEs. It means it doesn't affect non-TIEs, such as the Lambda (which has red turns) or future non-TIE small ships.

So what would they write if they only wanted it to affect the Bomber, Defender and Punisher, bearing in mind the ability on it would have no effect on any of the other ships? Would they try to cram on "TIE bomber, TIE punisher and TIE defender only. Modification." on when they could just write "TIE only. Modification."? Would they sacrifice the ability for it to affect future TIEs?

If they were working it that way it would probably just fill a missile slot. Beyond that, it would be a very very lame upgrade. They're going to do something interesting with it. Not some bland, take the disadvantages off a few dials nonsense.

Maybe it will turn all red turns to white and all white turns to green. That would be an interesting card. But something that makes all red hard turns white? Why? What would be the thought process.

Fill the Missile slot and it can go on the Firespray, and discourages you from using ordnance, something they don't want to do nowadays.

Why turn hard reds to white? Firstly, because those hard reds are highly disadvantageous to the TIE defender, moreso than initial predictions would suggest. It's a massive help to the arguably overcosted TIE defender and likely a benefit proportional to its cost to the TIE bomber and punisher. As a modification, it's also not autoinclude: it competes with health upgrades on the Defender and Munitions Failsafe on the Extra Muntioned bombers and punishers.

Maybe it will turn all red turns to white and all white turns to green. That would be an interesting card.

It'd be so good it'd have to be incredibly expensive, it'd pretty much be "PTL everything" (note how dial design nowadays seems to try and discourage PTL) and'd pretty much be a "make good ships better" card than help for the Defender.

What I meant is the turret has an associated cost, so on two equally costed ships the turreted one will have lower stats.

If the assumption is that the ship has a dial so good that it's equal to the turret in statline then it'll be 50/50 if the dialship keeps it in arc and its chances get worse for every missed shot when it gets arcdodged by the turret. Thing is, is the turret going to be able to arcdodge with a terrible dial? The successful turretships have some of the best dials in the game.

Moreover, the turret will lose to an equally costed ship with a normal dial, because that ship puts the points that go into the superdial or turret into stats. The superdial however can arcdodge and stands a much better chance.

I think that we are using completely different terminology - go back and read my post on how you can rationalize that the generic Defender was DOA before even knowing what the dial was. What I essentially said is that if you took a well-balanced turreted ship and kept the stats and cost the same but then gave it a forward arc while changing the dial to pure green, it would be strictly inferior. That describes the situation the generic TIE Defender is in. It is essentially paying for a turret but it doesn't get it.

I think it's possible that we need a more discreet terminology to discuss this stuff, because there's been a few times already when I think people (such as myself) are making arguments that are sort of related, but not really about the same thing that others are talking about, but related enough that it's confusing unless spelled out in long form every time.

Common sense. If it's Tie Only it's not going to affect 3 of 7 tie units.

And why not? TIE only doesn't mean it affects all TIEs. It means it doesn't affect non-TIEs, such as the Lambda (which has red turns) or future non-TIE small ships.

So what would they write if they only wanted it to affect the Bomber, Defender and Punisher, bearing in mind the ability on it would have no effect on any of the other ships? Would they try to cram on "TIE bomber, TIE punisher and TIE defender only. Modification." on when they could just write "TIE only. Modification."? Would they sacrifice the ability for it to affect future TIEs?

Read them.

I'm half hoping that it gives Ties S-Loops.

I'm half hoping that it gives Ties S-Loops.

As hilariously awesome as that would be it seems very difficult to fit that into the template in a way that makes sense. 'You may treat all [3 bank]maneuvers as [3 s loop] maneuvers' fits, but has very strange implications and implementation.

I'm half hoping that it gives Ties S-Loops.

As hilariously awesome as that would be it seems very difficult to fit that into the template in a way that makes sense. 'You may treat all [3 bank]maneuvers as [3 s loop] maneuvers' fits, but has very strange implications and implementation.

Even if it cost 0 points (which it probably would since it would only help the Defender, Bomber and Punisher), I don't think the Defender's main problem was its dial. MJ put it better on the first page then I could, but yeah, even if all its turns were white, it would still need either a points reduction or a free hull upgrade.

What I meant is the turret has an associated cost, so on two equally costed ships the turreted one will have lower stats.

If the assumption is that the ship has a dial so good that it's equal to the turret in statline then it'll be 50/50 if the dialship keeps it in arc and its chances get worse for every missed shot when it gets arcdodged by the turret. Thing is, is the turret going to be able to arcdodge with a terrible dial? The successful turretships have some of the best dials in the game.

Moreover, the turret will lose to an equally costed ship with a normal dial, because that ship puts the points that go into the superdial or turret into stats. The superdial however can arcdodge and stands a much better chance.

I think that we are using completely different terminology - go back and read my post on how you can rationalize that the generic Defender was DOA before even knowing what the dial was. What I essentially said is that if you took a well-balanced turreted ship and kept the stats and cost the same but then gave it a forward arc while changing the dial to pure green, it would be strictly inferior. That describes the situation the generic TIE Defender is in. It is essentially paying for a turret but it doesn't get it.

That is not the situation the generic defender is in. White k > all greens. A turret does beat a good dial. But firepower beats a turret without a good dial and higher pilot skill. Guess what beats firepower?

I don't care if the ship has every conceivable maneuver on the dial in green, including S-loops, backwards 1's, and whatever else you can imagine. It is still strictly inferior to having a turret, because it still needs to maintain a firing solution to shoot. The generic Defenders are essentially paying to have a turret, and all they got was a white K-turn.

Hey that might make a good T-shirt!

"I paid for a turret and all I got was a white K-turn!"

I don't care if the ship has every conceivable maneuver on the dial in green, including S-loops, backwards 1's, and whatever else you can imagine. It is still strictly inferior to having a turret, because it still needs to maintain a firing solution to shoot. The generic Defenders are essentially paying to have a turret, and all they got was a white K-turn.

Hey that might make a good T-shirt!

"I paid for a turret and all I got was a white K-turn!"

I'm half hoping that it gives Ties S-Loops.

That would be totally awesome, but if it did that then the pack would need an s-loop rule card and it does not seem to.

The Defender is probably worth about 27 points (generic). Vessery is already good value, but hard to put in a squad, so -1 point there would give him great utility. Rexler is overcosted and has a useless ability that never activates. -1.

Adding cost doesn't help much. If this card did this for 0points, it would be good, but that would make the Bombers godlike.

I don't care if the ship has every conceivable maneuver on the dial in green, including S-loops, backwards 1's, and whatever else you can imagine. It is still strictly inferior to having a turret, because it still needs to maintain a firing solution to shoot. The generic Defenders are essentially paying to have a turret, and all they got was a white K-turn.

Hey that might make a good T-shirt!

"I paid for a turret and all I got was a white K-turn!"

A dial is not just about getting guns on a target, though. It's about avoiding shots, avoiding blocks, and negotiating obstacles as well.

For the record, I would probably buy that T-shirt, though.

Yeah we want TIE Avengers to have S-loops. Then we'll have an excuse to have the TIE Avenger.

I don't care if the ship has every conceivable maneuver on the dial in green, including S-loops, backwards 1's, and whatever else you can imagine. It is still strictly inferior to having a turret, because it still needs to maintain a firing solution to shoot. The generic Defenders are essentially paying to have a turret, and all they got was a white K-turn.

Hey that might make a good T-shirt!

"I paid for a turret and all I got was a white K-turn!"

A dial is not just about getting guns on a target, though. It's about avoiding shots, avoiding blocks, and negotiating obstacles as well.

For the record, I would probably buy that T-shirt, though.

The Shuttle is worse. But functionally Interceptors are proof you can get by with only your two speed manuevers.

The big additions to arc dodging are extra-dial manuevers.(Boost, etc...)

I didn't want to hijack this thread into yet another TIE Defender topic, but it basically has already been done

Personally, I would love to see a TIE Defender title that borrows from the TIE Advanced playbook and adds -3 to the cost of cannon upgrades. Essentially a free ion/flechette cannon, or a 4 point HLC. One point for the mangler might even make it worth using. This change could essentially solidify the defender in its much-needed unique role as the premier cannon platform for the Imperials, while also freeing up points to apply this new potentially useful upgrade that comes with the Punisher. If it improves the Defender's dial in any meaningful way, then combined with the cannon discount I would personally feel a lot more comfortable about including them in my builds, whether just generics with a cannon or unique pilots kitted out with the now-cheaper HLCs.

I don't care if the ship has every conceivable maneuver on the dial in green, including S-loops, backwards 1's, and whatever else you can imagine. It is still strictly inferior to having a turret, because it still needs to maintain a firing solution to shoot. The generic Defenders are essentially paying to have a turret, and all they got was a white K-turn.

Hey that might make a good T-shirt!

"I paid for a turret and all I got was a white K-turn!"

not to dispute the idiocy of turrets, but until the k-wing (2 dice primary) gets here there are no primary turret ships on small bases and the only turret that can pack a cannon is the YT-2400 (though that too can be made into a turret). I wouldn't make it such a straight comparison given the implications of base size, especially with tournaments now allowing you to bring your own obstructions.

Then there's the other issues that, imo, no advantage can be fairly compared to the primary turret advantage even with rough estimates. It is literally infinitely better from a gameplay perspective (real world area is finitely bigger, but in X-wing everything outside epic shoots at range 3 max...plus arcs have blindspots, range 1-3 turrets do not) than any limited arc, no matter how wide or numerous.

Not that I wouldn't mind a buff to a very entertaining ship, ofc

I dont think it's coming in wave 7, though. While I don't agree with juggler in using turrets as a basis for comparison, I do agree that any potential defender buff should probably be more focused on stat efficiency than dial.

But, then again, we have no idea what the upgrade does (or do we?)

I don't care if the ship has every conceivable maneuver on the dial in green, including S-loops, backwards 1's, and whatever else you can imagine. It is still strictly inferior to having a turret, because it still needs to maintain a firing solution to shoot. The generic Defenders are essentially paying to have a turret, and all they got was a white K-turn.

Hey that might make a good T-shirt!

"I paid for a turret and all I got was a white K-turn!"

A dial is not just about getting guns on a target, though. It's about avoiding shots, avoiding blocks, and negotiating obstacles as well.

For the record, I would probably buy that T-shirt, though.

Most dials, even the best, are only slightly better than the Hawk at managing most of these.

The Shuttle is worse. But functionally Interceptors are proof you can get by with only your two speed manuevers.

The big additions to arc dodging are extra-dial manuevers.(Boost, etc...)

Boost and Barrel Roll surely help, but longer white or green moves give you more places you can consistently be, and that makes it harder to draw a bead on you.

A dial is not just about getting guns on a target, though. It's about avoiding shots, avoiding blocks, and negotiating obstacles as well.

You have to avoid shots while getting shots on the other guy, otherwise he is avoiding you, and the relative firing duty cycle is not in your favor. Even just getting out of a swarm's way, the turret can do a better job because the entire dial is open.

Same deal with avoiding obstacles and blocks -- with a turret you can actually pull off the move you need to while still getting a shot off.

I don't care if the ship has every conceivable maneuver on the dial in green, including S-loops, backwards 1's, and whatever else you can imagine. It is still strictly inferior to having a turret, because it still needs to maintain a firing solution to shoot. The generic Defenders are essentially paying to have a turret, and all they got was a white K-turn.

Hey that might make a good T-shirt!

"I paid for a turret and all I got was a white K-turn!"

A dial is not just about getting guns on a target, though. It's about avoiding shots, avoiding blocks, and negotiating obstacles as well.

For the record, I would probably buy that T-shirt, though.

Most dials, even the best, are only slightly better than the Hawk at managing most of these.

The Shuttle is worse. But functionally Interceptors are proof you can get by with only your two speed manuevers.

The big additions to arc dodging are extra-dial manuevers.(Boost, etc...)

Boost and Barrel Roll surely help, but longer white or green moves give you more places you can consistently be, and that makes it harder to draw a bead on you.

not to dispute the idiocy of turrets, but until the k-wing (2 dice primary) gets here there are no primary turret ships on small bases and the only turret that can pack a cannon is the YT-2400 (though that too can be made into a turret). I wouldn't make it such a straight comparison given the implications of base size, especially with tournaments now allowing you to bring your own obstructions.

The K-Wing is being born with a 2-dice attack into a world with Autothrusters. An extra attack dice is a premium that usually warrants a 50% increase in points (Academy -> Alpha), so we would expect the K-Wing to get a huge discount for only attacking with 2 dice instead of 3, and will probably get an even slightly bigger discount because it was designed with autothrusters in mind, because 2 atk will never damage to a ship with 3 agility, autothrusters and a focus token.

Staying on topic with what other people are saying, keep in mind that if Twin Ion Engines are TIE only, then it cannot be a negative points cost or give the ship a non-native upgrade at a reduced points cost like the X1, because that would unbalance the other TIE ships like the regular TIE and the Interceptor. It has to be 0 points minimum.

For people are wondering why they would make usable on all TIE models if it would only benefit the Defender, Bomber and maybe Punisher, it's because TIE only is easier to fit on a tiny upgrade card then "TIE Defender, TIE Bomber and TIE Punisher only".

Yes but it's a modification to the Engine on all the ships. Going by its name. If theyy wanted something to help only the bigger fatter ships they could have gone with something that fit the concept better.

If upgrading a ties engine does nothing for the smaller ships what's the point of having that upgrade. Why would it only affect the fat ships?

That's terrible writing and ffg is smarter than that.