No, because that one shield isn't worth the seven point deficiency in the stat line.

The Defender needs a free fix. Right now you can only fly three of them. Any fix that runs with a cost will take away one's ability to run 3 with Ion cannons.

I still hold to my belief that ANY small ship that a player can not run 4 of inside of 100 points is over priced.

That's an awfully narrow view, don't you think? A ship you can't run four of is overpriced solely by virtue of its base size? That is to say, if we made the Falcon small based (an advantage over a large base usually) it would suddenly be overpriced?

It'd have an easier time turning. Thing is, I'm fairly sure the card is a Modification, which means it's competing with health upgrades for the TIE defender and Munitions Failsafe on the Bomber and Punisher.

@MJ:

What if the Defender had 4 shields instead of 3, all costs and other stats remain the same.

Would this elevate him to competitive levels?

4 shields and 1 point off the generics might do it, although obviously that makes Rexler and especially Vessery even better, and they need far less help than the generics. I would have to run the numbers later when I get home. [Edit]: 4 shields of course has thematic value since the post X-wing Alliance Defender (nerfed) had 100 SBD shields = 4 shields in X-wing.

No, because that one shield isn't worth the seven point deficiency in the stat line.

Well, the K-turn helps to make back some of that cost, but, especially when combined with red 1 and 2 turns, it's probably only worth 2 [Edit, just looked up my own numbers ] 3 points or so.

The falcon wouldn't have the same stats if it was on a small base. That's a very narrow view of his narrow view you have there.

The tie only upgrade won't do this. It's meant to apply to all ties.

My bet is some form of additional manueverability.

As for fixes for the Defender, it's just not going to have good generic pilots.

@MJ:

What if the Defender had 4 shields instead of 3, all costs and other stats remain the same.

Would this elevate him to competitive levels?

4 shields and 1 point off the generics might do it, although obviously that makes Rexler and especially Vessery even better, and they need far less help than the generics. I would have to run the numbers later when I get home. [Edit]: 4 shields of course has thematic value since the post X-wing Alliance Defender (nerfed) had 100 SBD shields = 4 shields in X-wing.

100 SBD, thats what I had in mind

I'd buy a fix that would grant the Defender a discount (of 4 points) on modifications + a 2. modification slot.

As for fixes for the Defender, it's just not going to have good generic pilots.

That is probably true but also makes me very sad.

As for fixes for the Defender, it's just not going to have good generic pilots.

That is probably true but also makes me very sad.

The scum wave did the same.

The generic Firespray. Decent, but expensive. The generic Aggressor, nonexistant. The generic Starvipers. Awful.

Z-95s and M4's. The generics are decentish.(although I think the M4 needs some help.)

Meanwhile there aren't many dud named pilots in the entire wave.

Will the defender be more viable? It's two biggest complaints are its high cost and poor dial. If you eliminate the red turns but increase its cost by 1, will it be the monster we all remember? I know it will still not be among the most cost efficient, but it is a durable, fast fighter, and if all its turns were white, it would have a quite powerful dial.

If that is all it does, then no.

Here's the rationale that I presented on the NOVA podcast when we covered wave 4 Imperials:

1. All else being equal, having a turret is always superior to having a fixed forward firing arc and a better dial, even if that dial had every maneuver in the game as a green move.
2. The Defender's statline cost efficiency is on par with the better turreted ships.
3. Therefore the generic Defender's cost efficiency problems can't be solved by changing it's dial. To be viable, it needs some combination of decreasing its cost, increasing it's damage, or increasing its durability.

This is essentially the same exact line of reasoning that I brought up after's stats were spoiled but before the dial was revealed. Nothing has changed in the last year.

For reference, the stat line is worth about 23 points. The generic Defender is paying a 7 point tax.

Your first assertion is false.

It's only true in a weird world where ships are placed in immobile boxes and shoot back and forth at each other until one dies. In the game of X-wing, the ability to move to avoid arcs and control range for optimizing attack/defense modifiers makes the "all greens, fixed guns" setup much better than "HWK dial, turret" setup. Now whether the dial options on the Defender are good enough to overcome its cost is a question that clearly doesn't have a consensus answer.

The Defender with a Hawk Dial and a turret for the same points would be nearly unplayable, because the 3AGI wouldn't be worth much defensively, as concentrating fire, even with Z-95s, would be extremely easy. As it is, the fast moves and the white K-turn give the Defender options for avoiding shots while still keeping up a pretty consistent offense. It may not be efficient enough to be widely prevalent, but it has a niche that it can exploit it the right situations.

Base size also matters, but like dial, it's really hard to approximate it's value, and it's somewhat situational.

What if this card costs two points? Will you still tool up your defenders with it?

Any time you make a game with fixed stats and point costs that you can't go back and change, you are inevitably going to end up with some over-costed ships and some under-costed ships. The advanced, defender and e-wing are great examples of FFG over-costing a ship, while the B-wing is a great example of FFG under-costing a ship.

I think the developers try very hard to avoid under-costing a ship or upgrade, as that would be extremely game-breaking. There are a wide array of upgrade cards that are just a little too weak for what they do, and if tweaked a little, could be very powerful. Imagine being a developer, trying to find the right balance of power for any given upgrade card. The tendency has to be to prefer over-costing to under costing. This has to be the case, as over-powering a card would break the game, where under-powering a card simply makes it less played. How many C-3PO-level powered cards could the game take before being unplayable?

Will the defender be more viable? It's two biggest complaints are its high cost and poor dial. If you eliminate the red turns but increase its cost by 1, will it be the monster we all remember? I know it will still not be among the most cost efficient, but it is a durable, fast fighter, and if all its turns were white, it would have a quite powerful dial.

If that is all it does, then no.

Here's the rationale that I presented on the NOVA podcast when we covered wave 4 Imperials:

• All else being equal, having a turret is always superior to having a fixed forward firing arc and a better dial, even if that dial had every maneuver in the game as a green move.
• The Defender's statline cost efficiency is on par with the better turreted ships.
• Therefore the generic Defender's cost efficiency problems can't be solved by changing it's dial. To be viable, it needs some combination of decreasing its cost, increasing it's damage, or increasing its durability.

This is essentially the same exact line of reasoning that I brought up after's stats were spoiled but before the dial was revealed. Nothing has changed in the last year.

For reference, the stat line is worth about 23 points. The generic Defender is paying a 7 point tax.

Your first assertion is false.

It's only true in a weird world where ships are placed in immobile boxes and shoot back and forth at each other until one dies. In the game of X-wing, the ability to move to avoid arcs and control range for optimizing attack/defense modifiers makes the "all greens, fixed guns" setup much better than "HWK dial, turret" setup. Now whether the dial options on the Defender are good enough to overcome its cost is a question that clearly doesn't have a consensus answer.

The Defender with a Hawk Dial and a turret for the same points would be nearly unplayable, because the 3AGI wouldn't be worth much defensively, as concentrating fire, even with Z-95s, would be extremely easy. As it is, the fast moves and the white K-turn give the Defender options for avoiding shots while still keeping up a pretty consistent offense. It may not be efficient enough to be widely prevalent, but it has a niche that it can exploit it the right situations.

Base size also matters, but like dial, it's really hard to approximate it's value, and it's somewhat situational.

He's not wrong. Turret trumps dial.(Much less now that there are lists with autothrusters.

Also, I've made the Hawk Dial work wonders. It's not bad at all.

58 Dash is not exactly tearing up the meta. What other turrets stick to 1 and 2 banks? Not ones with a mini-swarm of TIE fighters after them.

Will the defender be more viable? It's two biggest complaints are its high cost and poor dial. If you eliminate the red turns but increase its cost by 1, will it be the monster we all remember? I know it will still not be among the most cost efficient, but it is a durable, fast fighter, and if all its turns were white, it would have a quite powerful dial.

If that is all it does, then no.

Here's the rationale that I presented on the NOVA podcast when we covered wave 4 Imperials:

• All else being equal, having a turret is always superior to having a fixed forward firing arc and a better dial, even if that dial had every maneuver in the game as a green move.
• The Defender's statline cost efficiency is on par with the better turreted ships.
• Therefore the generic Defender's cost efficiency problems can't be solved by changing it's dial. To be viable, it needs some combination of decreasing its cost, increasing it's damage, or increasing its durability.

This is essentially the same exact line of reasoning that I brought up after's stats were spoiled but before the dial was revealed. Nothing has changed in the last year.

For reference, the stat line is worth about 23 points. The generic Defender is paying a 7 point tax.

Your first assertion is false.

It's only true in a weird world where ships are placed in immobile boxes and shoot back and forth at each other until one dies. In the game of X-wing, the ability to move to avoid arcs and control range for optimizing attack/defense modifiers makes the "all greens, fixed guns" setup much better than "HWK dial, turret" setup. Now whether the dial options on the Defender are good enough to overcome its cost is a question that clearly doesn't have a consensus answer.

The Defender with a Hawk Dial and a turret for the same points would be nearly unplayable, because the 3AGI wouldn't be worth much defensively, as concentrating fire, even with Z-95s, would be extremely easy. As it is, the fast moves and the white K-turn give the Defender options for avoiding shots while still keeping up a pretty consistent offense. It may not be efficient enough to be widely prevalent, but it has a niche that it can exploit it the right situations.

Base size also matters, but like dial, it's really hard to approximate it's value, and it's somewhat situational.

And yet we have turret ships that never use anything beyond 1-2 forward and one banks to keep that Kyle Katarn focus.

He's not wrong. Turret trumps dial.(Much less now that there are lists with autothrusters.

Also, I've made the Hawk Dial work wonders. It's not bad at all.

To add to this, I played a "Phat Han Sad Horn" and only lost 1 game in the Store Championship season, and I was clearly going to win that game if it hadn't dragged out to time. (1 HP 62 point Han vs my 8 HP 60 point Han). My Han had Ptl, Engine, and Kyle, so I was pulling greens for almost the entire tournament, for multiple tournaments.

There are more technical explanations why the HWK dial + turret is still superior to all maneuvers as green, but Biophysical will remain unconvinced so I'll leave it as an academic exercise for the reader to derive.

Edit:

I beat Whisper + miniswarm as well, along with several 4+ ship rebel builds that were intent on gunning down Han. And I was doing nothing but pulling greens the entire time to shed stress and grab a free token. That's 1FWD, 2FWD, and 1 bank, which is even more restrictive than the HWK dial, even accounting for large vs small base travel distances. The same build won another 20+ person store championship in a competitive area, so it's not a fluke.

Q.E.D.

The falcon wouldn't have the same stats if it was on a small base. That's a very narrow view of his narrow view you have there.

And why is that? Are FFG somehow incapable of printing a ship with a Falconlike statline, upgrade bar and a primary turret? Granted, they wouldn't because no such ship exists in lore, but were they to would it be automatically overpriced because it has a small base?

There's nothing intrinsic to the small base that defines the stats of the ship on it. The base Firespray is cheaper than the base GR-75. It's perfectly possible to have a 3/1/8/5 turreted small ship. I doubt they'd make one, but they certainly could.

To say that any small ship is overpriced if it is over 25 points is to state that any small ship is overpriced if it is over 25 points. Were FFG to print a 4/2/5/5 with green Segnors and put it at 26 points, it would be, by this "logic", overpriced.

What makes a ship overpriced is its point cost in comparison to its statline, not its base size.

And yet we have turret ships that never use anything beyond 1-2 forward and one banks to keep that Kyle Katarn focus.

That have the statlines to endure enemy fire and more importantly are boosting and barrel rolling every turn.

Let's just say I wouldn't trade the TIE interceptor's dial for a HWK dial and a primary turret.

The tie only upgrade won't do this. It's meant to apply to all ties.

Where does it say that?

If you're referring to TIE only, that only refers to the equip condition. Extra Munitions can be equipped on an X-wing. If you're not convinced, why would they release a title for all TIEs? The TIEs in general have plenty of options and don't need the help.

I find it more likely that this is something that directly affects the TIE defender (the pictured ship and one arguably in need of some help). Given it's packaged with the Punisher, it also likely will affect the Punisher. What do those ships have in common? That is the question.

As for why it doesn't say "TIE defender, TIE bomber and TIE punisher only"? Imagine how much space on the card that would take up when "TIE only" has the same practical effect.

I will clarify my statement that in a mirror match, the "bad dial, turret" should beat the "good dial, fixed guns" every time. A dial with lots of movement options can do a lot to maintain proper range positioning over a dial without lots of movement options. If you have a weapon with distinct range advantages at certain ranges (like the Defender's cannon slot), a dial that helps you maintain long ranges in fights is really useful. A slow turret can't do much of this. A fast ship with fixed guns can.

I know it's impossible to know, but I'd be genuinely interested to see what the movement breakdown of MajorJuggler's Falcon was in his games. I feel like the 1-turn and long straights are really good moves on the YT-1300. HWKs can't pull those. Maybe we fly differently. I think pulling all greens in a YT is only really practical in a meta without swarms. It's too easy to block that big base otherwise. This is only my own experience of course.

I will clarify my statement that in a mirror match, the "bad dial, turret" should beat the "good dial, fixed guns" every time.

Also not true, assuming equally costed and balanced ships. Turrets are expensive. That match comes down to the fixed gunned ship's ability to keep the turret in arc: if it does, its better statline relative to cost wins out. A turret with a terrible dial can't do that.

The Falcon's success is durability combined with the turret combined with a great dial. Yes, they can take a lot of punishment but they rely on avoiding focused fire, not eating it.

I will clarify my statement that in a mirror match, the "bad dial, turret" should beat the "good dial, fixed guns" every time.

Also not true, assuming equally costed and balanced ships. Turrets are expensive.

Well, that's the whole point, if the 2 ships were identical in every other way, including stats and cost, then the turret and the Super-Dial would be equally expensive. And the turret would win. And that's the rationale that predicts why the generic Defenders were DOA even before I saw their dial.

I know it's impossible to know, but I'd be genuinely interested to see what the movement breakdown of MajorJuggler's Falcon was in his games. I feel like the 1-turn and long straights are really good moves on the YT-1300. HWKs can't pull those. Maybe we fly differently. I think pulling all greens in a YT is only really practical in a meta without swarms. It's too easy to block that big base otherwise. This is only my own experience of course.

Yeah, I don't think I have any vassal logs of it outside the tournament. I only recall getting blocked once in 2 tournaments, by the TIE mini-swarm. Engine on a large base ship is a big deal, but only works because you can boost to get out of dodge (or at least create separation) and still maintain shots with your turret.

I will clarify my statement that in a mirror match, the "bad dial, turret" should beat the "good dial, fixed guns" every time. A dial with lots of movement options can do a lot to maintain proper range positioning over a dial without lots of movement options. If you have a weapon with distinct range advantages at certain ranges (like the Defender's cannon slot), a dial that helps you maintain long ranges in fights is really useful. A slow turret can't do much of this. A fast ship with fixed guns can.

I know it's impossible to know, but I'd be genuinely interested to see what the movement breakdown of MajorJuggler's Falcon was in his games. I feel like the 1-turn and long straights are really good moves on the YT-1300. HWKs can't pull those. Maybe we fly differently. I think pulling all greens in a YT is only really practical in a meta without swarms. It's too easy to block that big base otherwise. This is only my own experience of course.

I think that's why he said, "All else being equal". Sure, if there is an optimum range to be shooting at, (say you have an HLC and the turreted ship doesn't, etc. etc.) but that's a bit of a corner case. All else being equal, turrets trump maneuvers because if you never have a shot on a R1-3 turret where he cannot shoot you back, while he could potentially have a shot on you where you cannot fire back. It's a pretty clear cut thing, I thought. But again, the key phrase is all else being equal.

The tie only upgrade won't do this. It's meant to apply to all ties.

Where does it say that?

If you're referring to TIE only, that only refers to the equip condition. Extra Munitions can be equipped on an X-wing. If you're not convinced, why would they release a title for all TIEs? The TIEs in general have plenty of options and don't need the help.

I find it more likely that this is something that directly affects the TIE defender (the pictured ship and one arguably in need of some help). Given it's packaged with the Punisher, it also likely will affect the Punisher. What do those ships have in common? That is the question.

As for why it doesn't say "TIE defender, TIE bomber and TIE punisher only"? Imagine how much space on the card that would take up when "TIE only" has the same practical effect.

Maybe it will turn all red turns to white and all white turns to green. That would be an interesting card. But something that makes all red hard turns white? Why? What would be the thought process.

Beyond that the name is a reference to the definig feature of all Ties, the Twin Ion Engines. If it's playing into that it better affect all of those engines, not jsut the ones on fat ships that can't turn.

Be creative, the game designers are.

I will clarify my statement that in a mirror match, the "bad dial, turret" should beat the "good dial, fixed guns" every time. A dial with lots of movement options can do a lot to maintain proper range positioning over a dial without lots of movement options. If you have a weapon with distinct range advantages at certain ranges (like the Defender's cannon slot), a dial that helps you maintain long ranges in fights is really useful. A slow turret can't do much of this. A fast ship with fixed guns can.

I know it's impossible to know, but I'd be genuinely interested to see what the movement breakdown of MajorJuggler's Falcon was in his games. I feel like the 1-turn and long straights are really good moves on the YT-1300. HWKs can't pull those. Maybe we fly differently. I think pulling all greens in a YT is only really practical in a meta without swarms. It's too easy to block that big base otherwise. This is only my own experience of course.

I think that's why he said, "All else being equal". Sure, if there is an optimum range to be shooting at, (say you have an HLC and the turreted ship doesn't, etc. etc.) but that's a bit of a corner case. All else being equal, turrets trump maneuvers because if you never have a shot on a R1-3 turret where he cannot shoot you back, while he could potentially have a shot on you where you cannot fire back. It's a pretty clear cut thing, I thought. But again, the key phrase is all else being equal.

Except all things are never equal. There's no ships that have the same stats, and same price, one with a turret and one without. What I'm saying is that a Delta Squadron Pilot with a HWK dial and a turret will always beat a Delta Squadron Pilot with super-dial and fixed guns, most interactions end up being much more complex than that. That's where a better dial starts being important. Specific interactions are very important in this game. Say I've got a Delta Defender with HLC fighting against 3 Academy Pilots. A HWK dial/turret HLC means the TIEs will have a pretty good idea of where I'll be. They can probably jump the range 3 band where I have the biggest advantage and get to range 1 and 2 where they can start doing serious damage fast. It will just be a dice-fest back and forth and the APs will usually win. The Delta Defender with it's current dial has a higher chance of getting the opening shot in the range 3 band where it gets 4 defense dice against 2 attack dice. It also can try and blow through the TIEs with a 5 straight or run away with 3 turns, all before coming around with the 4k. The TIE/lns don't know where it will be and have to guess at possible locations. If they guess right, great, if they guess wrong, the Defender gets more opportunities to take shots in a really good position.

I know it's impossible to know, but I'd be genuinely interested to see what the movement breakdown of MajorJuggler's Falcon was in his games. I feel like the 1-turn and long straights are really good moves on the YT-1300. HWKs can't pull those. Maybe we fly differently. I think pulling all greens in a YT is only really practical in a meta without swarms. It's too easy to block that big base otherwise. This is only my own experience of course.

Yeah, I don't think I have any vassal logs of it outside the tournament. I only recall getting blocked once in 2 tournaments, by the TIE mini-swarm. Engine on a large base ship is a big deal, but only works because you can boost to get out of dodge (or at least create separation) and still maintain shots with your turret.

Sure, and I'm thinking that the more swarms/mini swarms are popular, the harder it is for a turret to get by on a HWK's dial. That's not to diminish your performance, but I think it's a situation where the better dial starts mattering a lot more.

I thought that the Defender and Phantom could have traded their squad point costs and been fair.

We can see enough of the card to know almost without uncertainty it's going to be a card that reads 'You may treat [ ] maneuvers as [ ] maneuvers.' This really only lends itself to the first blank being a type (turn, bank, 1 speed, 2 speed) and the second blank being a color. Since red doesn't make any **** sense, it must be green or white. We can also very easily eliminate straight maneuvers from the first blank since no ties have red there.

From here we look at either a) turning banks green, since no ties have red banks, b) turning turns white/green, the former which only affects bomber, defender, and likely punisher, and the latter of which makes ties pretty overpowered most likely.

Our logical options are then either green banks, white turns, or a certain speed of maneuver becoming green (since a speed turning white only becomes relevant at 3/4 to turn k turns white or will only affect the defender/bomber at speed 2) turning 2 speed maneuvers green doesn't do a whole lot to be honest since most ties have mostly green there anyway.

All of this deduction leaves us with either all 1 speed maneuvers are green, all banks are green, or all turns are white. I think the most helpful for all ties is definitely the middle one, and my money is surely on banks becoming green.