Will the defender be more viable? It's two biggest complaints are its high cost and poor dial. If you eliminate the red turns but increase its cost by 1, will it be the monster we all remember? I know it will still not be among the most cost efficient, but it is a durable, fast fighter, and if all its turns were white, it would have a quite powerful dial.

It is unquestionably worth 1 point to turn red turns to whites on that dial, but lots of people think that it wouldn't be enough. I already think they're decent, so I'm not in that camp. I'd be pretty happy with that as a 1 point mod. I'd be ecstatic if it was a 1 point title.

Either way, option wise you'd only be missing the 1-straight. Even at mostly white, that's a hell of a dial. It would make the Defenders even better in asteroids, and give them the ability to cut inside an opponent's move while staying close. This is nice on any Defender, but it's especially good on cheaper generics who might not be taking a cannon (or simply might not be using that cannon to do damage because it's a cheap control cannon). I doubt it would win many converts, though. It wouldn't make the efficiency any better, and would actually make it slightly worse. People on the fence might use it more often, as would people who like that it would be closer to what it was in the background material.

Well the second the card is spoiled I know I'll be proxying the hell out of it, I love my defenders.

The dial is still powerful without white turns........

The Defender needs a free fix. Right now you can only fly three of them. Any fix that runs with a cost will take away one's ability to run 3 with Ion cannons.

I still hold to my belief that ANY small ship that a player can not run 4 of inside of 100 points is over priced.

The dial is still powerful with white turns........

Nah, it makes the Defender into a one trick pony.

The Defender needs a free fix. Right now you can only fly three of them. Any fix that runs with a cost will take away one's ability to run 3 with Ion cannons.

I still hold to my belief that ANY small ship that a player can not run 4 of inside of 100 points is over priced.

I don't think this change would be enough, but. 25-point delta would be insane.

The dial is still powerful with white turns........

Nah, it makes the Defender into a one trick pony.

Lol I meant to say without.

The Defender needs a free fix. Right now you can only fly three of them. Any fix that runs with a cost will take away one's ability to run 3 with Ion cannons.

I still hold to my belief that ANY small ship that a player can not run 4 of inside of 100 points is over priced.

B.S. 4 Defenders would be way to powerful, 4 StarVipers (besides just running 4 naked PS1s) would be extremely powerful, and 4 E-wings would be extremely powerful as well.

Yes the E-wing could use a boost, but a 5 point reduction to the Defender is completely uncalled for.

I suppose 5 points is a bit much.

I like that the TIE Defender was transmuted from being an unstoppable god machine (TIE Fighter) To a heavy assault badass starfighter (EoW, Rebellion). It just needs something to make it truly great in XWM - without it being OP.

I suppose 5 points is a bit much.

I like that the TIE Defender was transmuted from being an unstoppable god machine (TIE Fighter) To a heavy assault badass starfighter (EoW, Rebellion). It just needs something to make it truly great in XWM - without it being OP.

It is truly great in its own right, but I know what you mean.

1 point only, please. Just like the R2.

Making the speed-2s green.

So maybe you could go with

2 x delta + flechette cannons + TIE upgrade

1 x delta + ion cannons + TIE upgrade

Unless it adds green to the dial, the defender will remain on the outside looking in.

The straight-only greens are just too much of a liability.

People would still complain there wasn't enough green because by this point they are so dug into the "defender is useless" camp they cant walk it back without feeling foolish.

I am looking forward to trying my twin defender mix against twin aggressors. But it has to be said that a white K isn't quite enough. Defenders need something minor to give them that push into the top tier where they belong.

It does rise the possibility of an aces box set for the rest of the ships not done so. I wonder if a boost and a reduction on the cannon cost, could be the sweet spot for the defender. (something like cannons now cost -2 less and gain a boost action)

I do wish that all ships could fit 4 stock ships in a 100 points but that might get silly over time, if we drop the point value for the defender, we would need to just the value of the other ships. (We would see more of z95s, Tie fighters and a-wings within a match)If there is no adjustment of points to other ships, if you allowed me to pick a 25 point defender vs an advance its a no brainer which would be picked.

I agree something needs to be different.

I am looking forward to trying my twin defender mix against twin aggressors. But it has to be said that a white K isn't quite enough. Defenders need something minor to give them that push into the top tier where they belong.

Right now, twin defender lists fail because of the inability of shredding stress effectively.

But if this is an modification, you cannot enhance your defence.

It does rise the possibility of an aces box set for the rest of the ships not done so. I wonder if a boost and a reduction on the cannon cost, could be the sweet spot for the defender. (something like cannons now cost -2 less and gain a boost action)

I do wish that all ships could fit 4 stock ships in a 100 points but that might get silly over time, if we drop the point value for the defender, we would need to just the value of the other ships. (We would see more of z95s, Tie fighters and a-wings within a match)If there is no adjustment of points to other ships, if you allowed me to pick a 25 point defender vs an advance its a no brainer which would be picked.

I agree something needs to be different.

Defender Aces could still be happen. Why not? Maybe together with a Gamma-style Tie Bomber.

Will the defender be more viable? It's two biggest complaints are its high cost and poor dial. If you eliminate the red turns but increase its cost by 1, will it be the monster we all remember? I know it will still not be among the most cost efficient, but it is a durable, fast fighter, and if all its turns were white, it would have a quite powerful dial.

If that is all it does, then no.

Here's the rationale that I presented on the NOVA podcast when we covered wave 4 Imperials:

1. All else being equal, having a turret is always superior to having a fixed forward firing arc and a better dial, even if that dial had every maneuver in the game as a green move.
2. The Defender's statline cost efficiency is on par with the better turreted ships.
3. Therefore the generic Defender's cost efficiency problems can't be solved by changing it's dial. To be viable, it needs some combination of decreasing its cost, increasing it's damage, or increasing its durability.

This is essentially the same exact line of reasoning that I brought up after's stats were spoiled but before the dial was revealed. Nothing has changed in the last year.

For reference, the stat line is worth about 23 points. The generic Defender is paying a 7 point tax.

Here's the rationale that I presented on the NOVA podcast when we covered wave 4 Imperials:

1. All else being equal, having a turret is always superior to having a fixed forward firing arc and a better dial, even if that dial had every maneuver in the game as a green move.
2. The Defender's statline cost efficiency is on par with the better turreted ships.

Apologies if you've posted this elsewhere: How easy/difficult is it to approximate a point value for the Defender's K-turn?

It seems to me that one of the reasons the Defender is overcosted is because the value of its K-turn was initially overestimated.

The Defender needs a free fix. Right now you can only fly three of them. Any fix that runs with a cost will take away one's ability to run 3 with Ion cannons.

I still hold to my belief that ANY small ship that a player can not run 4 of inside of 100 points is over priced.

B.S. 4 Defenders would be way to powerful, 4 StarVipers (besides just running 4 naked PS1s) would be extremely powerful, and 4 E-wings would be extremely powerful as well.

Yes the E-wing could use a boost, but a 5 point reduction to the Defender is completely uncalled for.

The closest ship that the Defender can be compared to is the B-wing.

B-wing: Defender:

Dial: 1 bank and 1&2 green / NO 3 turn / 1 turn, 3 bank, 4 Red 2-5 green / NO 1 / 1&2 turn Red / 4k White

Shields/hull: 5/3 3/3

Attack/Evade 3/1 3/3

Actions: Focus/TL/BR Focus/TL/BR

Upgrade: Cannon/Title(crew)/Torpx2/System Missile/Cannon

Base cost: 22 30

FFG over values green dice, but yet they are worth something. But so is a System slot and 2 more shields, the ability to move 1 forward, and a better dial. I'm standing by my original statement. This should be a 22 - 25 point ship at base cost.

I'm very interested in what the TiE card could mean for the tie bomber. Any thoughts? Seems to me that changing 2-turns to either white or green on a bomber would be a big deal..

I'm very interested in what the TiE card could mean for the tie bomber. Any thoughts? Seems to me that changing 2-turns to either white or green on a bomber would be a big deal..

Green yes.... White no. Bombers NEED two actions to be able to hit hard and fast. White does not help to clear stress for those named bombers with PTL.

Here's the rationale that I presented on the NOVA podcast when we covered wave 4 Imperials:

1. All else being equal, having a turret is always superior to having a fixed forward firing arc and a better dial, even if that dial had every maneuver in the game as a green move.
2. The Defender's statline cost efficiency is on par with the better turreted ships.

Apologies if you've posted this elsewhere: How easy/difficult is it to approximate a point value for the Defender's K-turn?

It seems to me that one of the reasons the Defender is overcosted is because the value of its K-turn was initially overestimated.

No, that is a very good question. It obviously had the playtesters and developers stumped during testing, otherwise they would have released the ship cheaper. Of course the E-wing is also drastically overpriced in the same wave, so it has the appearance that they were just overly cautious with those 2 high value, high agility ships. Not so much the Phantom though in the same wave, oddly.

In any event, if you can predict or quantify exactly how much the white K-turn is worth, then you are onto something that nobody has been able to do yet. It fundamentally relates back to the relative firing duty cycle and increased action economy. In the Defender's case though, we have a pretty well known baseline for the quantitative efficiency increase that a turret provides, so putting it all together it was obvious that the generic Defenders would be dead on arrival regardless of what the dial was.

@MJ:

What if the Defender had 4 shields instead of 3, all costs and other stats remain the same.

Would this elevate him to competitive levels?