@jkokura:

It's funny that you talk as if there are just a handful of us that are unsatisfied with the diversity of the lists. I'd say that 90% of the people I've met in the game don't care for seeing similar lists all over the top tables.

What would be diversity to me? Seeing less than 25% of ANY lists that were dominated with one particular play style. That is fat turrets, or arc dodgers, or ordnance carriers, or swarms. It doesn't matter. If people see only a certain type of list winning a large number of games, then the game is pretty stale at the high tables and it shows some sort of unbalancing of the game mechanics (or at least tournament mechanics).

Fat Turrets to me are ships with lots of hull and shield. They have 360 firing. They are on large bases. They have Engine Upgrade. Their main strategy is to arc dodge and fire at you. The nuance of the different crew cards and which cannon the Outrider take are minor details to the overall play style. They are all big ships that want to arc dodge you and blast you anyways. Yeah, it effects a few things if it's an HLC vs. Mangler or if Rebel Captive or Vader is onboard, but overall, it doesn't change their style that much. If it's still a giant ship with Engine Upgrade that tries to dodge your arc and still fire at you, it's just window dressing what other cards are on it in the overall scheme of things. Yes, it will effect your play style, but not that much.

If it were over 25% of all winners were swarms then I'd be bitching about swarms. About the only thing I can't think about bitching about is "jousters" as that's such a huge category that it's hard to really pin down. It just seems to be a bunch of regular ships that like to fly at you and shoot you. If there were over 25% of them, then I don't think I'd have a problem (without really knowing what would fit into that being the caveat).

you should specify PWT fatties

while Cheri and Han are essentially the same bull in a different coat of paint, the way Dash plays can't even begin to be described as even remotely similar. Sure, he fires 360 but so do Y-wings and HWKs with turrets and like them his HLC variant has an honest to god limitation that absolutely **** him over if exploited (for PWTs it's, for some ungodly reason, and advantage and they get +1 die even out of arc; you don't get to shoot). Add to it his lower PS, lack of defensive tech and reliance on the action step, apart from only Kyle Katarn, and he is far less forgiving and far more dependent on maneuvers + the exploitation of his ability. Arc-dodging isn't enough, you need to dodge, be outside range 1, and be set up to remain that way on future turns.

What I learned from taking him against fat PWTs is that you basically need HLC and to be in range 3 to win the inevitable dice-off. Range 2 with 2 green dice just isn't good enough against their guaranteed defensive and offensive tech. That single extra fickle die w/KK is the difference between winning and losing, as are obstructing shots if you're focusing on removing the non-turret part of the list first.

In short, there's no way in hell the YT-2400 even vaguely resembles the drool-inducing VT-49 or YT-1300

@jkokura:

It's funny that you talk as if there are just a handful of us that are unsatisfied with the diversity of the lists. I'd say that 90% of the people I've met in the game don't care for seeing similar lists all over the top tables.

Oh, I recognize this. My comment of 'there are probably more who agree with you' was meant to be a bit more facetious in tone. Sorry you didn't get that, it's hard to communicate effectively with just text.

What would be diversity to me? Seeing less than 25% of ANY lists that were dominated with one particular play style. That is fat turrets, or arc dodgers, or ordnance carriers, or swarms. It doesn't matter. If people see only a certain type of list winning a large number of games, then the game is pretty stale at the high tables and it shows some sort of unbalancing of the game mechanics (or at least tournament mechanics).

Fat Turrets to me are ships with lots of hull and shield. They have 360 firing. They are on large bases. They have Engine Upgrade. Their main strategy is to arc dodge and fire at you. The nuance of the different crew cards and which cannon the Outrider take are minor details to the overall play style. They are all big ships that want to arc dodge you and blast you anyways. Yeah, it effects a few things if it's an HLC vs. Mangler or if Rebel Captive or Vader is onboard, but overall, it doesn't change their style that much. If it's still a giant ship with Engine Upgrade that tries to dodge your arc and still fire at you, it's just window dressing what other cards are on it in the overall scheme of things. Yes, it will effect your play style, but not that much.

If it were over 25% of all winners were swarms then I'd be bitching about swarms. About the only thing I can't think about bitching about is "jousters" as that's such a huge category that it's hard to really pin down. It just seems to be a bunch of regular ships that like to fly at you and shoot you. If there were over 25% of them, then I don't think I'd have a problem (without really knowing what would fit into that being the caveat).

Good to know your definitions, but I would say that not everyone who is even in the same position as you are would agree with even your definitions of fat turrets. For example, if it requires EU to be fat, then the number of 'fat turrets' drops quickly from ~%50. I'm not sure of the exact number, but I'm certain that not all turrets being taken into the top 8 have Engine Upgrade.

Similar to Ficklegreendice, I view the YT-2400 to be a drastically different ship to the other available pancakes. I also view the YT-1300 and VT-49 to be different enough from each other to represent diversity, but I also easily see how the opposite could be argued so I'd concede that point. But the Outrider is just drastically different, and with just 10 hit points and only 2 standard attack dice... It's a different piece. Especially considering that the title itself is 5 points.... I've seen plenty of Dashes, Leebos, and Vrills with just a cannon and no title, making it a very different beast - more of a jouster than a turret really.

The thing is, I can totally see why some people aren't happy. I'm not saying that I don't sympathize or empathize, but rather I have a bit more hope and see the changes that are coming and the anecdotal evidence as a happy and hopeful situation. You in particular Chadwick, and excuse me if I have this inaccurately, just seem to be grumpy about the situation too often.

I would say that approximately %10-15 of the people I've met and spoken with about this game view the game with the 'unhappy' mindset. %90 of people I've met and play with are nothing but stoked for the now and the future. To each their own experience.

Jacob

The thing is, I can totally see why some people aren't happy. I'm not saying that I don't sympathize or empathize, but rather I have a bit more hope and see the changes that are coming and the anecdotal evidence as a happy and hopeful situation. You in particular Chadwick, and excuse me if I have this inaccurately, just seem to be grumpy about the situation too often.

I find this particularly funny as I'm often considered a jolly type guy. I fully blame my last job that had way too much free time for me to go online and complain. I liked to consider myself one of the more well adjusted complainers. I wasn't suggesting crazy fixes or even trying to suggest anything other than there is probably some sort of imbalance if the best players were taking only fat turrets. It's just funny to meet the resistance to the idea that it's not a diverse meta.

Still, I get it and I am sure that I'm particularly cantankerous in this thread.

I'm pretty optimistic about the future of X-wing, especially when seeing the Wave 7 stuff so far released.

The thing is, I can totally see why some people aren't happy. I'm not saying that I don't sympathize or empathize, but rather I have a bit more hope and see the changes that are coming and the anecdotal evidence as a happy and hopeful situation. You in particular Chadwick, and excuse me if I have this inaccurately, just seem to be grumpy about the situation too often.

I find this particularly funny as I'm often considered a jolly type guy. I fully blame my last job that had way too much free time for me to go online and complain. I liked to consider myself one of the more well adjusted complainers. I wasn't suggesting crazy fixes or even trying to suggest anything other than there is probably some sort of imbalance if the best players were taking only fat turrets. It's just funny to meet the resistance to the idea that it's not a diverse meta.

Still, I get it and I am sure that I'm particularly cantankerous in this thread.

I'm pretty optimistic about the future of X-wing, especially when seeing the Wave 7 stuff so far released.

Are you going to Worlds? If so, permit me the joy of buying you a coffee and getting to know the Jolly Chadwick

Jacob

No....I'm in North Carolina and I'm a family man. I was happy I could make it to Regionals in Raleigh. Nationals and Worlds is one of those things I dream about once the kids go off to college.

Thanks, though! If you want jolly, a beer would be better. If you want spazzy, then coffee is fine.

you should specify PWT fatties

while Cheri and Han are essentially the same bull in a different coat of paint, the way Dash plays can't even begin to be described as even remotely similar. Sure, he fires 360 but so do Y-wings and HWKs with turrets and like them his HLC variant has an honest to god limitation that absolutely **** him over if exploited (for PWTs it's, for some ungodly reason, and advantage and they get +1 die even out of arc; you don't get to shoot). Add to it his lower PS, lack of defensive tech and reliance on the action step, apart from only Kyle Katarn, and he is far less forgiving and far more dependent on maneuvers + the exploitation of his ability. Arc-dodging isn't enough, you need to dodge, be outside range 1, and be set up to remain that way on future turns.

What I learned from taking him against fat PWTs is that you basically need HLC and to be in range 3 to win the inevitable dice-off. Range 2 with 2 green dice just isn't good enough against their guaranteed defensive and offensive tech. That single extra fickle die w/KK is the difference between winning and losing, as are obstructing shots if you're focusing on removing the non-turret part of the list first.

In short, there's no way in hell the YT-2400 even vaguely resembles the drool-inducing VT-49 or YT-1300

You can do a green one bank, a large ship boost, and a large ship barrel roll and still move halfway across the damned map with your HLC turret. Oh, and it ignores asteroids. It's the ultimate goober ship, takes zero skill.

Against PWT's the PWT's are at the advantage, yes. But against normal ships it destroys them. It's always at range 3, and it's always firing at you because HLC turret, and it's always dodges most of your ships' arcs.

Which brings me to. I mentioned a lack of diversity in the meta, when I primarily spoke of the top 8. I should probably rephrase my statement to be there is a lack of diversity in the top 8. There is very likely a greater diversity in the meta as a whole.

As far as the EXX goes, is that an outlying flyer or the beginning of a new trend? Smart money is on the former, but only time will tell.

I disagree that having a lot of different fat turrets is considered diverse. It's diversity of fat turrets, but still lots of fat turrets. I want to see a wide variety of different ships in the Top 8, not just different builds of YT's and Decimators. Different builds of the same few ships is not really that diverse.

It's getting better, but still not fully there yet.

So what would make you guys happy and stop claiming that this is diverse? An equal representation of all ships available? Or just that a specific build type isn't as common as it is now? What if in the process of adding new ships in the next waves we see the meta swing so that Fat Turrets are NEVER played, but another type of list makes up ~%50 of winning lists? Is that still not diverse?

Consider these things:

- I believe every ship has been represented in the top 8. Admittedly, some have been seldom there, or perhaps outliers, but not all ships are equally popular

- I believe ~%70 of ships have been represented at the final table. I could be slightly off on that percentage as I didn't calculate it exactly, but I have been keeping track

- I believe more different ships have won Regionals this year than any year previous. Admittedly we have access to more ships this year than before, but surprisingly more of the ships that weren't used in previous years that were available are winning.

I get that for at least you two, and some more people probably agree with you, that it's not diverse enough. I'm not sure how you define diversity, but it seems like it's about equal representation not about the inclusion becoming the evidence. I would disagree that different turreted ships are all the same - the 3 that we have access to now alone are different ships and are making up fairly even distribution of the 'fat PWT' lists so that itself is almost the equal representation diversity that some people recognize as true diversity (perhaps you).

The truth is, almost any ship can be included in a list and has the chance to win. It's been shown, you can see it coming down the pipe that PWT ships will not be the 'meta' in the future, and if it's not diverse already, the meta is both diversifying and is more diverse now than it ever has been.

Jacob

I don't think it's about making me happy. This game will continue with or without my happiness. I wouldn't even say that I'm unhappy at the moment.

I just noticed that there are a lot of fat turrets at the top this regional season. Even if FFG agrees that fat turrets are over represented and wants to do something about it, it's too early. I would imagine they will let this season play out so they can analyze the final statistics and make their own determination on the diversity seen at the top tables this season. FFG will do what they think is best for the game regardless of my observations, and that is how it should be.

Week 11: July 4-5

Canberra, Australia

July 4, 2015
Attendance: 63

Three D Six

List Juggler: http://lists.starwarsclubhouse.com/get_tourney_details?tourney_id=530
Custom software used for event (awesome live updates): http://www.tabletoptournaments.com.au/event.php?id=1

• Winner:
  Dash, PTL, HLC, Kyle, Engine, Title
  Corran, VI, FCS, R2-D2
  
• 2nd place:
  Han, Pred, Luke, C3P0, Engine, Title
  3 x Bandit
  
• 3rd:
  Dash, PTL, HLC, Kyle, Engine, Title
  Corran, VI, FCS, R2-D2
  
• 4th:
  Dash, PTL, HLC, Kyle, Engine, Title
  Corran, FCS, R2-D2
  
• 5th:
  Dash, Pred, HLC, Recce Spec, Title
  Corran, VI, FCS, R2-D2, Engine
  
• 6th:
  IG88-B, Lone Wolf, Sen Jammer, Mangler, Autos, Dampeners
  IG88-C, PTL, Sen Jammer, Mangler, Autos, Dampeners
  
• 7th:
  4 x Thug, Ion, R4, Title
  
• 8th (Dropped from Top Cut):
  Lando, PTL, C3P0, Jan Ors, Title
  Wild Space Fringer, HLC, Gunner, Title
  (Yes Gunner - It was a mistake as he meant to submit Gunner on Lando and Jan Ors on WSF but got them mixed in his rush to submit his squad on time then it was too late once the tourney started to change)
  
  9th (8th after drop):
  Boba, VI, Gunner, Engine, Dampeners
  2 x Thug, Ion, R4, Title

• Winner:

  Dash, PTL, HLC, Kyle, Engine, Title

  Corran, VI, FCS, R2-D2

• 2nd place:

  Han, Pred, Luke, C3P0, Engine, Title

  3 x Bandit

• 3rd:

  Dash, PTL, HLC, Kyle, Engine, Title

  Corran, VI, FCS, R2-D2

• 4th:

  Dash, PTL, HLC, Kyle, Engine, Title

  Corran, FCS, R2-D2

• 5th:

  Dash, Pred, HLC, Recce Spec, Title

  Corran, VI, FCS, R2-D2, Engine

WTF Australia?! You were supposed to bring balance to the meta! YOU WERE THE CHOSEN ONE!!!

did 4th forget his VI at home or did he predict that the entire population of Australia would be running Dash + Corran and wanted the bid?

It is interesting that Morgan and I discussed this as occurring when we had a natter at the QLD regionals.

Wonder if the Raider or Next wave will be here early enough to shake up the Nationals.

Holy Dash and Corran batman! That build has been doing poorly... until now. Will have to add in the last few weeks to see where it stands in aggregate now.

did 4th forget his VI at home or did he predict that the entire population of Australia would be running Dash + Corran and wanted the bid?

I spoke with Tom (4th) about it and he actually did forget! He's had a break from X-Wing for a bit and just plain forgot about VI. Once he realised though he didn't mind as he had the bid in the mirrors.

I suspect he missed VI in the Top 4 against Fat Han though.

Holy Dash and Corran batman! That build has been doing poorly... until now. Will have to add in the last few weeks to see where it stands in aggregate now.

should probably mention somewhere that all the results just burst forth from the ether, like jumping out of hyperspace into the waiting arms of a fleet large enough to give Akbar fits

Holy Dash and Corran batman! That build has been doing poorly... until now. Will have to add in the last few weeks to see where it stands in aggregate now.

Indeed!

Opinions may vary but my take on the resurgence of Dash+Corran is the combination of the Decloak nerf and inclusion of Debris Fields.

Wow, Australia. Did you all get together and decide before what list you were all bringing?

I kid, I kid...

...But seriously, did you?

The last of Polish regio - Kraków - was won by another boring version of Chiraneau & Fel.

What was unusual though, that the final match looked like this: Imperials destroyed one by one four Rebel Headhunters, then lonely, but full healthy, Corran (PTL, Sensor jammer) decided to retaliate and attempted koio - suddenly, near the edge of the battle sector he changed his mind... and fled the battle.

The rest of top 4 was another Chiraneau & Fel and IG-BC (PTL, Sensors). 25 people.

The results should be in Juggler soon.

I know it shouldn't, but it still surprises me that soontir fel wins so many regionals, given that there are such strong counters to him.

I know it shouldn't, but it still surprises me that soontir fel wins so many regionals, given that there are such strong counters to him.

Maybe chiraneau wins regionals and Fel is just along for the ride.

Just kidding.

It's not soonts, it's RAC with arc dodger de jour

It's the combo. There's a reason you don't see chirpy and tie fighters too often.

RAC is a very good Turret-Ship. Han has the bedder Pilot-Skill, but Chiraneaus Ability is so much bedder, since (with Predator) you don't need offensive Actions and can boost all along. Also there are many very good Crew-Options for Empire right now (Ysanne, Captive, Vader!) and the VT-49 has 3 Slots.

Soontir is currently the strongest Arc-Dodger.

The Admiral is the best Turret Ship.

Together they form a strong duo!

At least until the Raider arrives and the Fat French will find a new guy, who will fly with him *g*

I guess FFG has a distribution problem in Australia. The only ships available in stores are YT-2400s and E-wings.

Copenhagen Regionals just finished:

Listjuggler upload with all info coming in the week from the TO.

Here's a short list from memory:

39 players.

1st (1st. After swiss ): Chewie (Predator, C-3PO, Title, Engine, Luke Gunner) and 3 Talas

2nd: IG-88 B and C

Me 3rd (2nd after Swiss): Dash (title, HLC, Predator) and Chewie (title, C-3PO, Predator)

4th: Boba and 3 Pirates (or 4, memory not certain)