It's almost as if the meta is shifting slowly instead of just overnight. Who knows maybe players are getting better at beating turret lists, maybe some players are moving on from those lists and running other stuff. It's almost like the sky isn't falling...almost.

That's a negative, Ghost Rider. We demand all meta shifts happen instantaneously.

Because... reasons.

We'll, we've now seen Bombers make top 8.

Here's looking at you, Scyks.

I was the TO of the Northern Sweden Regionals - and it was a blast!
Lots of B-Wings and IG's, but also a few more unusual lists. All the games from top 8 and up where nerve wreckingly tight. The final between 3 stress-B's + A and DeciFel was one of the most entertaining games I've ever watched.

Got a few of them on video and hope to have friends make proper battle reports of them.

X-Wing Regional Arnhem was a tournament with 29 players, 5 rounds of Swiss and a cut to the Top 4.

Two German/Dutch Semi-Finals took place, which ended in a pure dutch final!

We'll, we've now seen Bombers make top 8.

Here's looking at you, Scyks.

I thought Laetin made a top 8. No?

No, it missed the cut in ninth and was proclaimed to be a "thing". That is probably why you believed something of note had actually occurred.

We'll, we've now seen Bombers make top 8.

Here's looking at you, Scyks.

I thought Laetin made a top 8. No?

Serissu shows in top 8 in Manitoba according to OP.

He's kind of the obvious answer to turrets and once-per-turn defensive abilities. I don't understand why it didn't happen sooner.

It's funny because nothing really has changed to make him more favorable. When the E-wing first came out there was a lot of negative publicity around the ship and became overshadowed by the Phantom. The funny thing was, that Mr. Horn with VI was (and still is) a very hard counter to the Phantom, but he still wasn't popular. It wasn't until wave 5 when he started to gain some traction.

Another interesting case study is the now popular BBBBZ list. That list was possible all the way back to wave 4, but wasn't popular until about Wave 6. Nothing in that time frame really made it more or less favorable. The phantom nerf made it more favorable, yet it became popular before then.

I think people choose lists due to popularity and forum chatter almost as much as how effective those lists are.

Sure people play lists for reasons of popularity, but that's an oversimplification that ignores some differences in the meta between Wave 4 and now, including some very large changes. I think there are reasons both of those lists are more effective now and more popular because of that. There are, imo, clearly far more favorable conditions for both of them, especially BBBBZ.

The first of those changes is that since Wave 5 the TIE Swarm has been on the endangered species list and it is an extreme deterrent to both VI Horn and BBBBZ. VI Horn really doesn't like a lot of ships on the board since, even though his double tapping can take out one a turn, he is still vulnerable to blocking and is one of the most predictable "Ace" type ships seeing play. BBBBZ gets absolutely shredded by an Obsidian swarm led by Howl.

Re: The Phantom: I also disagree that a VI Horn is a "hard" counter to a phantom (then or now). He's 46 points with one action (EU, R2D2, VI, EU), two more points than a Gunner, VI, ACD, FCS Whisper. He still has to guess where the phantom is going, and even though he can adjust it means he would have no other action (no modified defense). He can double tap with FCS, but he's very likely going to be doing so against a cloaked Whisper. I'm not saying he's not good against a phantom, but I wouldn't put him in the "very hard counter" category. Regarding phantoms and BBBBZ pre-nerf, do I really need to go into detail about this one?

I also think both BBBBZ and Horn benefit from the current meta quite a bit. BBBBZ is hard for two ships to chew through and the phantom nerf means it can more likely put guns on a phantom than before. I think VI Horn especially likes facing very few guns in this meta since it means his attack is generally more effective and he's often just facing two guns (great for escaping and for being able to recharge). Seeing less of whisper isn't bad for him either since it's one less gun that can eat through his shields.

I think there are very clear competitive reasons you didn't see BBBBZ at all when it first became an option and that's true, maybe to a lesser extent but still true, of seeing more of Horn as well (and he was played more). I don't think it's nearly as much about popularity as effectiveness in the current meta, especially at top tables.

Sorry, I'm not buying these arguments. I'm not going to argue differences between "hard", "very hard", "soft" countering because it's semantics, but to me any ship that has a 10+ ps with movement action capabilities is a hard counter to phantoms. You can slap flechettes on Horn if you really want to make him an even harder counter.

I'm also not seeing how Tie swarms are a counter to either Horn or BBBBZ, at least I've never had issues. Horn runs circles around swarms (and doesn't fly alone), unless they break out of formation. If they do that it becomes difficult to focus him down with R2-d2. For BBBBZ, unless there a number of Obsidians, they shoot before most of the TIEs, taking out 1-2 before returning fire, and then there is a lot of meat to chew through. I'm not saying one list excels against the other, but that swarms wouldn't deter BBBBZ lists.

Also at least observing Nationals and Worlds lists of last year, swarms were in a sharp decline even then, but no BBBBZ. What I actually saw more of during wave 4 was BXXZZZ which is very similar and would probably do just as well as BBBBZ in today's meta.

If you want to see more metas being (partially) defined by popularity, try observing and comparing tournaments of other countries (non-English speaking).

I'm not seeing clear competitive reasons for either of these cases.

Sorry, I'm not buying these arguments. I'm not going to argue differences between "hard", "very hard", "soft" countering because it's semantics, but to me any ship that has a 10+ ps with movement action capabilities is a hard counter to phantoms. You can slap flechettes on Horn if you really want to make him an even harder counter.

I'm also not seeing how Tie swarms are a counter to either Horn or BBBBZ, at least I've never had issues. Horn runs circles around swarms (and doesn't fly alone), unless they break out of formation. If they do that it becomes difficult to focus him down with R2-d2. For BBBBZ, unless there a number of Obsidians, they shoot before most of the TIEs, taking out 1-2 before returning fire, and then there is a lot of meat to chew through. I'm not saying one list excels against the other, but that swarms wouldn't deter BBBBZ lists.

Also at least observing Nationals and Worlds lists of last year, swarms were in a sharp decline even then, but no BBBBZ. What I actually saw more of during wave 4 was BXXZZZ which is very similar and would probably do just as well as BBBBZ in today's meta.

If you want to see more metas being (partially) defined by popularity, try observing and comparing tournaments of other countries (non-English speaking).

I'm not seeing clear competitive reasons for either of these cases.

I understand not wanting to argue semantics about degrees of counter, but there's a pretty significant difference between a higher PS with the ability to reposition and a higher PS gunner turret or stress mechanic (as you mention).

Swarms were in a sharp decline, but, at least at Worlds, a handful made the final cut and I think one did well the last day. Now, it's been rare to even see them make the Top 8 at a regional. With regard to Horn and swarms, my point was that I could see how, especially VI Horn (which is the one you mentioned and has less advantage against a swarm than PTL Horn), he would be better off without them. If you don't see how a heavy two ship meta overall is a far more favorable for him than we'll have to disagree (and I wasn't saying he wasn't fine then, but prepping a list with Horn to face a swarm and/or phantoms/and or turrets is a tougher proposition than when you know he'll likely be facing a lot of two ship lists)..

Your original point was that it was not a more "favorable" meta for either of these two (Horn and the BBBBZ list) and I think it's pretty clear there are reasons it is a much more favorable meta for them, which is not to say Horn wasn't competitive then, but that the environment is definitely better for him now. I think the phantom change is a huge advantage for any list without a counter to it, like BBBBZ. If you don't agree, that's fine, but I really think it's not that tough to see how much different this meta is than World's and how that benefits both ships.

A few varied fields is nice to see. If it continues we'll all be happy, it could just as easily swing back to all turret any day. Nice to see someone go with an old school swarm to remind people that sometimes Jaws still just bites you in half.

I can't provide the rest of the lists but this is my Boba, B list from Fargo ND.

IG88-B (49)

Aggressor (36), Predator (3), Advanced Sensors (3), “Mangler” Cannon (4), IG-2000 (0), Autothrusters (2), Inertial Dampeners (1)

Boba Fett (50)

Firespray-31 (39), Veteran Instincts (1), Gunner (5), Inertial Dampeners (1), Engine Upgrade (4)

I can't provide the rest of the lists but this is my Boba, B list from Fargo ND.

IG88-B (49)

Aggressor (36), Predator (3), Advanced Sensors (3), “Mangler” Cannon (4), IG-2000 (0), Autothrusters (2), Inertial Dampeners (1)

Boba Fett (50)

Firespray-31 (39), Veteran Instincts (1), Gunner (5), Inertial Dampeners (1), Engine Upgrade (4)

Congratulations Evan!

Two of the Top 8 lists in Fargo were the same RAC/Whisper build(See below). I was the number 3 seed after swiss and the other was the number 1. We both lost our first elimination round.

RAC(59)-VI, Vader, Gunner, EU

Whisper(39)-VI, FCS, ACD

Brad M was the number 1 seed and he lost to the 8 seed, Ryan H who was flying,

Patrol Leader(48)-Vader Gunner

Obsidian Squad(13)x4

Thanks Kent. Also their was a 4BZ list and a whisper, fel, doom shuttle but I can't remember the upgrades

One very strong list that I saw in Vancouver yesterday fares very well against Chirpy/Fel, and came within a hair of making the finals:

Wedge with Draw Their Fire, Shield Upgrade, R2D2

Biggs

Gold Squadron with BTL, R3A2 and Ion Turret.

Bandit Squadron

Draw Their Fire plus R2D2 basically counters Chiraneau's ability, he can't turn those eyeballs into damage on Biggs. R3A2 plus Wedge also works pretty well as a Soontir counter. The guy playing the list went undefeated in Swiss, largely feasting on everyone flying Decimator/Fel lists, and his loss basically came down to one bad target-locked roll from Wedge.

The balance in the list also seems like it should fare well against other builds, like Brobots and BBBBZ.

2 X-wings also makes it dead sexy, as well.

Your original point was that it was not a more "favorable" meta for either of these two (Horn and the BBBBZ list) and I think it's pretty clear there are reasons it is a much more favorable meta for them, which is not to say Horn wasn't competitive then, but that the environment is definitely better for him now. I think the phantom change is a huge advantage for any list without a counter to it, like BBBBZ. If you don't agree, that's fine, but I really think it's not that tough to see how much different this meta is than World's and how that benefits both ships.

It's clear that it's a good meta for them now, but I don't think you really presented why it was less favorable for them before they became popular. For Horn, he's a good counter to the top lists both then and now, yet he was rarely chosen then. For BBBBZ, my position was that that list was popular before the phantom decloak change was even announced. I'm not seeing how they would have been a worse choice between that point and when wave 4 first came out. The phantom would have been their most challenging opponent, not the swarm, yet they became popular before the meta was more favorable for them (after the phantom nerf).

Only 1 fat list in that swedish regional. Whole lotta B's though. And Bombers and an A in the winning list!

Jacob

Whisper is the answer to both of those questions, but potential 4BZ or Corran players being worried about whisper greatly exceeded the number of them eliminated by Whisper.

http://www.rebelcaptive.blogspot.de/2015/06/tournament-netherlands-regionals-arnhem.html#more

Write up of the Dutch Arnhem regionals. Written from the POV of a m3-a Scyk swarm player.

Edit: Now the English version iso the German one.

BBBBZ won the 2nd Italian regional yesterday.

I'll provide top8 builds as soon as possible, but tons of fat turrets there in the top 8 (a SuperDash + Jake + A, 2 different Cheebos, Deci+Soontir, Fat Han, FarlHan, Scum Boba + 2Y)

So essentially, one could say that at Arnhem, Brobots finally went a bridge too far.

No turrets (fat or otherwise) in the top 4 in Arnhem last Saturday! Only ties, bro-bots and a shuttle!

1 Howl, 6 obsidian

2 bro-bots

4 soontir, Howl, 4 academies

4 soontir, jax, Jorr.

BBBBZ won the 2nd Italian regional yesterday.

I'll provide top8 builds as soon as possible, but tons of fat turrets there in the top 8 (a SuperDash + Jake + A, 2 different Cheebos, Deci+Soontir, Fat Han, FarlHan, Scum Boba + 2Y)

Thanks! Were you the TO? I missed this one, so I didn't email the store. If you have direct TO contact info that would be helpful. Did they use Cryodex?

Also, how many people were there?

Swiss Regional 2015-06-13

23 Players

60 Minute rounds

List Juggler: http://lists.starwarsclubhouse.com/get_tourney_details?tourney_id=494

Winner:

Jake Farrell + Proton Rockets + Veteran Instincts + Autothrusters + Push the Limit
Han Solo + Predator + Millennium Falcon + Engine Upgrade + C-3PO + Luke Skywalker

2nd Place:

Biggs Darklighter
Keyan Farlander + Advanced Sensors + Heavy Laser Cannon + Stay on Target + Intelligence Agent
Wedge Antilles + R3-A2 + Veteran Instincts

Semi-Finalists:

IG-88B + Mangler Cannon + Push the Limit + IG-2000 + Advanced Sensors + Autothrusters
IG-88C + Heavy Laser Cannon + Push the Limit + IG-2000 + Advanced Sensors + Autothrusters

Royal Guard Pilot + Royal Guard TIE + Push the Limit + Autothrusters + Stealth Device
Carnor Jax + Royal Guard TIE + Push the Limit + Autothrusters + Stealth Device
Soontir Fel + Royal Guard TIE + Push the Limit + Autothrusters + Stealth Device

I can't provide the rest of the lists but this is my Boba, B list from Fargo ND.

IG88-B (49)

Aggressor (36), Predator (3), Advanced Sensors (3), “Mangler” Cannon (4), IG-2000 (0), Autothrusters (2), Inertial Dampeners (1)

Boba Fett (50)

Firespray-31 (39), Veteran Instincts (1), Gunner (5), Inertial Dampeners (1), Engine Upgrade (4)

Congratulations Evan!

Two of the Top 8 lists in Fargo were the same. I was the number 3 seed after swiss and the other was the number 1. We both lost our first elimination round.

RAC(59)-VI, Vader, Gunner, EU

Whisper(39)-VI, FCS, ACD

Brad M was the number 1 seed and her lost to the 8 seed, Ryan H who was flying,

Patrol Leader(48)-Vader Gunner

Obsidian Squad(13)x4

So, wait, THREE of the same squads in Top 8 were identical?

Clearly Sable Gryphon needs to be nerfed!

Great, my list went mainstream. I liked it before it was cool!

Great, my list went mainstream. I liked it before it was cool!

X Wing: Hipster Expansion.