GiraffeandZebra -

It's all good. I'm not one of those interwebz warriors that feels compelled to browbeat everyone into agreement (at least, not anymore). As I do with MajorJuggler and HeyChadwick, I am simply posting my opinion because it is different from yours/theirs, on the theory that those reading both your/their opinions and mine may be able to glean something useful to them from the discussion.

As others have said, this is all largely subjective so opinions are only as good as they are helpful. Even MJ's math has a lot of underlying subjectivity, which doesn't in any way diminish it's usefulness. I appreciate how he states his assumptions upfront, it makes it much easier to incorporate his work because he gives me the context I need to understand it.

For example, his numbers let me do quick math at the table when facing Biophysical's dual HLC defenders. I knew that a single IG could match damage vs. both of them as long as I could maintain range 3 and keep Vessery away from the double action TL/Focus, and out damage them if I could deny actions. I was able to confidently plan and play a blocking game with one of the IGs because of this information. Counter-intuitively, trying to go 2v2 consistently would have led to my loss because I would have been unable to maintain range 3 and unable to take both shots turn after turn. Without MJ's work, I would have assumed I should try to match 2v2 and would likely have lost that game. I disagree with MJ's overall assessment of the strength of TIE Defenders, but knowing that his assessment places much less value on their maneuverability/white K-Turn than I do and knowing what the "joust" values are, I could make informed decisions while playing.

Also, it was quite helpful as this discussion continued for MJ to define "fat" as he uses the term. I agree in that context that my dual IG build was "fat", because I specifically built the points totals (51 points on the less inherently powerful IG88A, 49 on B) so that I could win in a mirror match by destroying a single opposing IG, thus putting pressure on my opponent to eliminate both ships and/or prioritize the ship that presented less of a threat.

Here are the results from KC that I have. Cryodex was used, do not know when that will be uploaded since all I did was videos. If there are any mistakes someone please correct them.

Winner:

IG88-B: Mangler, Predator, Advanced Sensors, Inertial Dampeners, Autothrusters

IG88-A: HLC, FCS, Inertial Dampeners, Autothrusters

Runner Up:

Han Solo: Veteran Instincts, C-3PO, Gunner, Millenium Falcon

3x Tala Squadron Pilot

Top 4 (lost to Runner Up):

Chewbacca: Leebo, C-3PO, Predator, Millenium Falcon

Corran Horn: Push the Limit, Advanced Sensors, R2-D2, Engine Upgrade

Top 4 (Lost to Winner):

Rexler Brath: Predator, HLC, Hull Upgrade, Ion Pulse Missile

Colonel Vessery: Lone Wolf, HLC, Stealth Device

Top 8:

Howlrunner: Stealth Device, Push the Limit

Black Squadron Pilot: Wingman

5x Academy Pilot

Top 8:

Chewie: Predator, C-3PO, Gunner, Millenium Falcon

Corran Horn: Push the Limit, FCS, Engine, R2-D2

Top 8:

Dash Rendar: HLC, Outrider, Navigator, Veteran Instincts

Corran Horn: Push the Limit, FCS, Engine, R2-D2

Top 8:

Corran Horn: Push the Limit, Engine Upgrade, R2-D2, FCS

Luke Skywalker: Lone Wolf, R5-P9, Shield Upgrade

Prototype Pilot: Chaardan Refit .

I like this top eight.

I like that I played half those guys. I would have loved to see that Corran/Luke/Prototype list up close, though. The Chewbacca/Corran in the top 4 was cleaning up during Swiss. At 5-1 he still had the highest total MOV. I think he went 3 or 4 games of 200-0.

I was trying to oblige you, but alas, KO had to go and kill all my ships. I was interested to see how a game between us would have gone.

I don't think a 2 ship defender list is fat. Nor are some Chewbo lists, or the Dual Agressors. I think Fat is less broad than you're suggesting, and unfortunately because you're in 'charge' of the information gathering and proficient at interpreting the data, much of the information that you're providing is slanted towards your definition of fat.

Jacob

Whoa, whoa, whoa. I can see arguing that a dual defender list is not fat, but Chewbo? You mean those guys who ignore crits and shed damage like crazy? They might be near the epitome of Fat. And dual aggressors? With 3 evades and autothrusters at 50 points a pop?

Yeah, and this comes back to my understanding that your definition of 'fat' will change the way you look at the issue. MJ has established what he sees is fat. I disagree with him about one part of his definition.

If 3 evades and auto thrusters is a part of the definition, pretty much any interceptor (and not just the ties) could now be considered fat.

I agree that Chewie and Leebo have good abilities, but they are abilities just as every other ship has them. Because they have the abilities they have, they don't have other ones, like Brath's or Chirineau, or any number of other pilots with outstanding abilities. Leebo's isn't even that great, as in about 12-15 games with him where it could have triggered I've probably only had his ability trigger like 3 times. Chewie's ability is really good, but it's still an ability, not game breaking.

They're not fat in themselves. And when you pair them, they're not particularly better because they're together than they are partnered with other ships. 1/3 of the reason to pair them is bound up in that they both are PS5, meaning you can move them in whichever order you want, and another 1/3 of the reason is bound up in their cost being reasonable so that you can set them up pretty well.

I get that you might define these ships as fat. I don't think that a build is fat just because it's 2 ships. I feel there are more factors that lead to a fat build/ship.

Jacob

Also, it was quite helpful as this discussion continued for MJ to define "fat" as he uses the term. I agree in that context that my dual IG build was "fat", because I specifically built the points totals (51 points on the less inherently powerful IG88A, 49 on B) so that I could win in a mirror match by destroying a single opposing IG, thus putting pressure on my opponent to eliminate both ships and/or prioritize the ship that presented less of a threat.

I thought about this as well on my 50/49 IG88 build. It was mostly to give away initiative vs the PS6 mirror, but has the nice side benefit of being able to eek out a 1 point win potentially.

The crazy thing is, once you have a modified win in a 64+ person 6 round tournament, if you have a loss and a modified win you're out of the cut. So, if you get a modified win you need to go undefeated 6 rounds to make the cut. Total insanity.

The crazy thing is, once you have a modified win in a 64+ person 6 round tournament, if you have a loss and a modified win you're out of the cut. So, if you get a modified win you need to go undefeated 6 rounds to make the cut. Total insanity.

I am confused by this. The No. 8 seed in KC had 23 victory points; I can only assume that is a 5-1 record with a modified win. Our starting field was 67. Is it possible that he only made it due to drops or something?

The crazy thing is, once you have a modified win in a 64+ person 6 round tournament, if you have a loss and a modified win you're out of the cut. So, if you get a modified win you need to go undefeated 6 rounds to make the cut. Total insanity.

I am confused by this. The No. 8 seed in KC had 23 victory points; I can only assume that is a 5-1 record with a modified win. Our starting field was 67. Is it possible that he only made it due to drops or something?

edit: There is a threshold above 64 players where there will be 9 players that are 5-1 or better. It depends how many byes were used. At that point, once you have only 23 tournament points, you are immediately the worst 5-1 player regardless of MoV. Your only hope is for another 5-1 player to also have a modified win, and for you to have better MoV. The #9 player in MA had 25 tournament points and didn't make the cut based on MoV. We had 74 players and 16 byes used in MA.

Gotcha. I am not sure how many byes were used in KC. We'll wait and see when the List Juggler info posts.

I believe there were 6 byes used in KC.

Thought I would share the regionals I went to here in Western Australia.

Was a great day. Made top 8 being top of the ladder only to get knocked out.

Some usual suspects and some surprises.

X-Wing West Australian 2015 Regional Championships

As promised, here is the full results from the 1st WA Regionals:

The final championship game was fought between Gregg Johnson’s “Breakfast at Tiffany’s” scum list and Vlad Piscetek’s "Imperial Patrol", as follows:

Gregg’s List - "Breakfast at Tiffany's 2.0"

• Palob Godalhi (32) -

Veteran Instincts,

Blaster Turret,

Recon Specialist,

Inertial Dampeners,

Moldy Crow

• Kaa’to Leeachos

Bodyguard

• IG88-B

Veteran Instincts,

Advanced Sensors,

Heavy Laser Cannon,

Inertial Dampeners,

Autothrusters

Vlad’s List - "Imperial Patrol"

• Patrol Leader (51)

Darth Vader

Gunner

Rebel Captive

• Academy Pilot x 4

In what was an incredibly close final, lasting just 50 minutes. Vlad lost a Tie Fighter in the opening volley and two others were badly damaged in the second round before he was able to turn the tide destroying Palob and later Kaa'to before sending Gregg's aggressor on a frantic dash for cover. Gregg recovered well destroying two more Ties in a dance around a corner edge, but sustained heavy fire from the Decimator in return.

In the penultimate turn Vlad has his Decimator on 2 hull points and a single tie fighter. Gregg had the Aggressor on a single hull point, but with higher initiative. Both the Decimator and Aggressor had console fires criticals. Both big ships moved skilfully and were able to use their actions to extinguish their fires and acquire range 1 shots. The Tie Fighter was caught out of position without a shot.

Gregg fired first but only scored one hit. Vlad returned fire and scored three hits, which sadly Gregg was unable to dodge.

Congratulations to both on one of the closest games of the day.

And as a result we can now announce Vlad Piscetek is the first Western Australian Regional Champion!

The final scores from the 5 rounds were:

1. Duane Nunn - 25 points (844)

2. Barry Earley - 20 points (777)

3. Vlad Piscetek - 20 points (764)

4. Rhys Oscar Katich - 20 points (748)

5. Daniel Cheng - 20 points (670)

6. Mark Bruce - 20 points (660)

7. Jason Funnel - 20 points (606)

8. Gregg Johnson - 15 points (667)

9. Rik Beal - 15 points (658)

10. Mark Templeton - 15 points (614)

11. Jonathan Wan - 15 points (598)

12. Cain Hogermeer - 15 points (574)

13. Liam Earley - 15 points (565)

14. Cameron Popple - 15 points (553)

15. Ash Tindall - 15 points (549)

16. Greg Mckenzie - 15 points (488)

17. Steven Feast - 15 points (484)

18. Richard Tyrer - 13 points (592)

19. Nathaneal Sobejko - 13 points (546)

20. Anthony Ellison - 10 points (553)

21. Josh Cheng - 10 points (451)

22. Sean Palmer - 10 points (446)

23. Glenn Murray - 10 points (420)

24. Mark Cheng - 10 points (417)

25. Chris Spielovogel - 10 points (412)

26. Vincent Di Fabrizio - 10 points (402)

27. Malcolm King - 10 points (398)

28. Mikey Stoker - 10 points (351)

29. Murray Wood - 8 points (301)

30. Jason Sloan - 5 points (403)

31. Mark Kester - 5 points (389)

32. David Blechynden - 5 points (360)

33. Damien Pitt - 5 points (330)

34. Neil Sorenson - 5 points (309)

35. Darcy Twentyman - 5 points (223)

36. James Kirkham - 0 points (78)

Quarter Finals saw:

Duane Nunn vs Gregg Johnson

Barry Earley vs Jason Funnel

Mark Bruce vs Vlad Piscetek

Daniel Cheng vs Rhys Oscar Katich

Semi Finals saw:

Barry Earley vs Gregg Johnson

Rhys Oscar Katich vs Vlad Pisetek

The remaining top 8 lists were:

Rhys Oscar Katich - "Jake takes the Gold"

• Jake Farrell (27)

Chardaan Refit

Autothrusters

Push the Limit

• Gold Squadron Pilot

R3-A2

Ion Cannon Turret

• Gold Squadron Pilot x 2

BTL-A4 Y-Wing

R2 Astromech

Ion Cannon Turret

Barry Earley - "Binary System"

• IG88-B

Push the Limit

Advanced Sensors

Mangler Cannon

IG-2000

Autothrusters

• IG88-C

Push the Limit

Advanced Sensors

Heavy Laser Cannon

Inertial Dampeners

IG-2000

Autothrusters

Daniel Cheng - "Opportunist knocks twice with a sledgehammer"

• Prince Xizor

Opportunist

Virago

Autothrusters

Fire-Control System

Inertial Dampeners

• Palob Godalhi

Opportunist

Blaster Turret

Recon Specialist

Inertial Dampeners

Moldy Crow

• Binayre Pirate x 2

Mark Bruce - "Jake Solo"

• Jake Farrell

A-Wing Test Pilot

Proton Rockets

Veteran Instincts

Autothrusters

Push the Limit

• Han Solo

Lone Wolf

C-3PO

Luke Skywalker

Millennium Falcon

Engine Upgrade

Jason Funnel - "The Ties are back in Town"

• Howlrunner

Veteran Instincts

Stealth Device

• Obsidian Squadron Pilot (13) x 6

Duane Nunn - "Horny, Dash & Leebo"

• Dash Rendar

Veteran Instincts

Heavy Laser Cannon

Leebo

Outrider

• Corran Horn

R2-D2

Advanced Sensors

Push the Limit

Shield Upgrade

8th place before the cut wins the final match against the 3rd seed. Way to go Greg!

Also...

Corran and Dash

Howlrunner + 6 ties

Jake and Han

Xizor, Palob and 2 Z's

Bonnie and Clyde 88s

Jake and 3xGold Y's

Palob + Z + IG88

Doom Leader + 4 Tie swarm

That is an UNBELIEVABLE top 8. I love the diversity, that there are 2 A's in different squads, that there's only one Han, Only one Corran that there's only one Deci (and it's a Doom Leader), and that there's a Xizor, that there's 2 Palobs, and that there's a full Tie Swarm and a Mini Swarm, and that there's Y-Wings...

Missing is a Phantom, a B swarm, a Chireneau/Fel, any sort of Interceptor only list, a full Y-Wing list (Stress Hogs or Panic Attack), and no two lists are even close to being the same. So cool.

Jacob

8th place before the cut wins the final match against the 3rd seed. Way to go Greg!

Also...

Corran and Dash

Howlrunner + 6 ties

Jake and Han

Xizor, Palob and 2 Z's

Bonnie and Clyde 88s

Jake and 3xGold Y's

Palob + Z + IG88

Doom Leader + 4 Tie swarm

This is why every state needs to legalize the wacky tabaccy.

I think AT prototypes are more competitive than their cut representation suggests, but Jake? He's pretty expensive for what he does, right?

I think AT prototypes are more competitive than their cut representation suggests, but Jake? He's pretty expensive for what he does, right?

27-28 points for a pocket-Soontir has never felt outrageous to me.

I think AT prototypes are more competitive than their cut representation suggests, but Jake? He's pretty expensive for what he does, right?

I've been experimenting with Jake, with PTL, Title, VI, proton rockets, AT. Flies like Soontir, but a little more survivability with the shields, but less damage with the 2 dice. If you have a list that can dish out some damage, you can bring him in to close with a 5 die shot. Not the best ship out there, but he can be effective.

I think AT prototypes are more competitive than their cut representation suggests, but Jake? He's pretty expensive for what he does, right?

Well I gues that would depend on definition and expectation. I would say no he's not, it depends on what your trying to achieve with him. It's kinda something you need to experience for your self and make up your own mind. Oh btw I'm the guy who ran him, and got knocked out of top 8 with the hard counter that was doom leader and 4 ties

Very different matchups on the day

Rd1 I faced the only tie swarm. Corran tanks whilst dash provides fire support.

Win 74-0

Rd2 I faced a 5 awing swarm with ion stress hog.

This guy knew how to use these guys and could've beaten me if his dice weren't so cold & he stuck to dash instead of switching targets. Switching to corran was a big error even though he got dash in the end.

Win 70-51

Rd3 I faced a triple b-wing & warthog again... With leia organa crew!!

Abit one-sided to be honest. Used to dealing with these sorts of builds.

Win 100-0

Rd 4 I faced the xizor list. This guy only threw this list together 3 days before the event!!

And here's the kicker. He was about 12 years old & kicking ass! Go Daniel.

Felt bad that I won here but he still made top 8.

Win 100-0

Rd5 versus brobots

Top table with only us 2 on 4 wins this was fighting for top spot before the cut. We joked that we should've flown our ships off table & gone to the pub as we're were in top 8 win or lose.

I ensured I kept in amongst the obstacles to draw him in. He wasn't buying though & eventually circled back around & we engaged there. I was gunning for ig88c as he was worth more then dash or horn. I suicided corran to get him though dash still managed to get ig88b anyway whilst frolicky in debris clouds. Barry constantly rolling focuses instead of blanks helped here.

Cut to top 8 and I'm sitting pretty on top. Although I was nervous facing Greg. I tried to play the long game and draw him into the obstacles. About 20 minutes of slow rolling ensues. He gets his aggressor into the corner & corran & dash turn to face him. After a HLC with target lock (range 3) & a double tap from corran at range 2 I total... 1 shield.

In return corran gets mauled down to one shield. Yikes!! At that point I can see the writing on the wall. I try to flee with corran & send dash up the middle to try & pick off the z-95 to try & save corran but it was not to be. He then doggedly pursues & destroys dash although I don't make it easy!

My first loss of the day and knocked out of contention. I curse my luck although I realise I had average to above average dice on the day. It was sure to catch up with me!

After the day I realised. I did not face a single opposing fatty! I saw 2 super dashes, 2-3 falcons and even a few decimators but they mustn't have done too well except for mark & Vlad. But out of 36 players I found it astounding! I was expecting RAC's & soontir a everywhere but only saw one person running it & he just missed the cut.

Although I was counting my blessings that I didn't face the quad shuttle list with vader crew & tacticians everywhere. I don't know why but that list playing the next table over just looked scary, especially if used in the right hands!

Well that's me done! Congrats to a well deserved win to Vlad. That man knows how to play xwing! Seen him take out pre-faq phantom lists more times then I can count with b-wing swarm or a wing swarms.

So you guys complaining about the stale meta. Just move over here to Western Australia & join the madness.

Full results for MA Regionals are up on List Juggler.

Plainville, Massachusetts, US

June 6, 2015

Battleground Games & Hobbies (venue moved to Holiday Inn Mansfield/Foxboro)

Attendance: 74

Info: https://www.facebook.com/events/347720482089164/

List Juggler: http://lists.starwarsclubhouse.com/get_tourney_details?tourney_id=473

Fun fact: Runner-up was 6-0 and 1200 MoV in Swiss.

• Winner: IG-88B + Veteran Instincts + Fire-Control System + Inertial Dampeners + Autothrusters + IG-2000 + Seismic Charges + Mangler Cannon; IG-88C + Veteran Instincts + Fire-Control System + Inertial Dampeners + Autothrusters + IG-2000 + Heavy Laser Cannon + Flechette Cannon
• 2nd place: Rear Admiral Chiraneau + Predator + Engine Upgrade + Ysanne Isard + Gunner + Rebel Captive; Soontir Fel + Push the Limit + Autothrusters + Stealth Device + Royal Guard TIE
• Top 4: IG-88B + Heavy Laser Cannon + Predator + Autothrusters + Advanced Sensors + IG-2000; IG-88C + Mangler Cannon + Predator + Advanced Sensors + Inertial Dampeners + Autothrusters + IG-2000
• Top 4: Airen Cracken + Swarm Tactics + Cluster Missiles; Biggs Darklighter; 2x Blue Squadron Pilot + Advanced Sensors
• Top 8: Han Solo + Veteran Instincts + Millennium Falcon + Leebo + C-3PO; Dash Rendar + Heavy Laser Cannon + Lone Wolf + Tactician
• Top 8: Gold Squadron Pilot + Ion Cannon Turret + R3-A2; 3x Blue Squadron Pilot + Tactician + bwing/E2
• Top 8: Dash Rendar + Heavy Laser Cannon + Push the Limit + Outrider + Engine Upgrade + Kyle Katarn; Corran Horn + Veteran Instincts + R2-D2 + Fire-Control System
• Top 8: Han Solo + Predator + Millennium Falcon + Engine Upgrade + Gunner + C-3PO; 3x Bandit Squadron Pilot

I'm fat. :-) I also agree that brobots are a fairly common archetype, though I believe something is lost when they are all lumped into a single bin. They can play quite differently depending on load out and specific IG88s chosen. For example, (AdSens + PtL + IG88C) vs. (AdSens + Predator + IG88D) play extraordinarily differently from one another.

Also, while I see what you are doing I believe some of your definitions are so broad as to be misleading. If you define "Fat" as any list that includes a ship with a lot of upgrades (like the Dual Defender list) whether on large base or small you are going to include pretty much every list in the game.

The complaints have been about large base turret ships, using engine upgrade and a variety of damage mitigation sources to "lock" a very large number of points up in a target that is difficult to remove within the time limits of a typical game. The particular combination of 360 degree shooting, damage mitigation, and disproportionate speed (boost plus large base) creates a distinct play style that many people including myself are sick to death of seeing.

Your analyses are very mathematically based, and very useful, but IMO list archetypes are truly defined by how they play. The mechanisms they exploit are far more important than the specific upgrades. I could lock 50 points up in a B-Wing if I really wanted to, but it would play so differently from a 50 point 3p0 Chewie that the two are incomparable despite having similar point totals.

JMO, but I think that a very large portion of the discontent at this point is nothing more than people reading negatives into results where they really don't exist. Even your list of things to exclude for "uniqueness" is long enough to provide an interesting meta. Add that to the fact that even pre-Wave 5 "unique" lists generally only placed at most one list in a top 8 (relative to the meta of the time) and we are seeing results that have a solid number of left field lists capable of competing on a relatively equal footing.

It's worth noting that, for tournaments in ListJuggler, Decimators, Falcons, and IGs are appearing more frequently in elimination in higher percentages in elimination than in Swiss at regional tournaments (YT 2400s are not). So assuming your estimate is correct, it makes KC unique and not part of a larger pattern, at least at this point.

While I do like the variety of this meta more than Wave 5, I'd still like to see more variety in small ships making the cut than we're consistently seeing, especially since there's a much larger variety of them in the game.

I'm fat. :-) I also agree that brobots are a fairly common archetype, though I believe something is lost when they are all lumped into a single bin. They can play quite differently depending on load out and specific IG88s chosen. For example, (AdSens + PtL + IG88C) vs. (AdSens + Predator + IG88D) play extraordinarily differently from one another.

Also, while I see what you are doing I believe some of your definitions are so broad as to be misleading. If you define "Fat" as any list that includes a ship with a lot of upgrades (like the Dual Defender list) whether on large base or small you are going to include pretty much every list in the game.

The complaints have been about large base turret ships, using engine upgrade and a variety of damage mitigation sources to "lock" a very large number of points up in a target that is difficult to remove within the time limits of a typical game. The particular combination of 360 degree shooting, damage mitigation, and disproportionate speed (boost plus large base) creates a distinct play style that many people including myself are sick to death of seeing.

Your analyses are very mathematically based, and very useful, but IMO list archetypes are truly defined by how they play. The mechanisms they exploit are far more important than the specific upgrades. I could lock 50 points up in a B-Wing if I really wanted to, but it would play so differently from a 50 point 3p0 Chewie that the two are incomparable despite having similar point totals.

JMO, but I think that a very large portion of the discontent at this point is nothing more than people reading negatives into results where they really don't exist. Even your list of things to exclude for "uniqueness" is long enough to provide an interesting meta. Add that to the fact that even pre-Wave 5 "unique" lists generally only placed at most one list in a top 8 (relative to the meta of the time) and we are seeing results that have a solid number of left field lists capable of competing on a relatively equal footing.

It's worth noting that, for tournaments in ListJuggler, Decimators, Falcons, and IGs are appearing more frequently in elimination in higher percentages in elimination than in Swiss at regional tournaments (YT 2400s are not). So assuming your estimate is correct, it makes KC unique and not part of a larger pattern, at least at this point.

While I do like the variety of this meta more than Wave 5, I'd still like to see more variety in small ships making the cut than we're consistently seeing, especially since there's a much larger variety of them in the game.

But alot of the small ships aren't cost effective. When you build for a tournament you want a SOLID ship. To get a solid ship you need to spend close half your list or more to have a SOLID ship. Look at 3 generic x wings vs fat han. similiar points but Han is way better for the cost. Make the small ships worth there cost and you'll see more of them.

speaking of, looking only at the small ship builds (because PWT silliniess and mov shenanigans are purely in FFG's ballpark), which small ships are we not seeing?

B-wings have of course planted their flag firmly in the meta, and Y-wings seem to be gaining traction (finally started using mine too, they're very much not bad ). Interceptors should have been made viable (though soontir is incredibly popular because of high PS and actions tacking), and I personally believe A-wings are tragically under-appreciated (at least as "one-ofs" in lists)

the sight of two crazy Corrans escorting Y-wings instead of Dash makes me very happy

it would be interesting to see which small ships make it as anything apart from the smaller half of a fat ship build, and what characteristics they seem to emphasize. As far as I can tell, it's either "be fat" (mitigate same damage as fat han via evade + thrusters/ability, or shield regain), be a B-wing, or bring control.

apparently the Mass regionals had everyone but the Starviper (which is imo baffling since the characters are pretty incredible )

Personally been trying to get Luke to shine in a competitive environment. With predator and r5-p9, he's basically Corran-lite (and 1 less than the base cost!) but I worry that his ability is a poor replacement for an evade (although it's hilarious against many attacks, versus few highly modified attacks)

I think Scyks are really the only small ship that hasn't had representation in the top squads at sometime.

But alot of the small ships aren't cost effective. When you build for a tournament you want a SOLID ship. To get a solid ship you need to spend close half your list or more to have a SOLID ship. Look at 3 generic x wings vs fat han. similiar points but Han is way better for the cost. Make the small ships worth there cost and you'll see more of them.

In your opinion, why is Han the better for the cost?

I think Scyks are really the only small ship that hasn't had representation in the top squads at sometime.

Agreed. We've seen just about everything else (even shuttles).

Actually, come to think of it, I don't think we've seen Bombers in a top 8 squad either.

But alot of the small ships aren't cost effective. When you build for a tournament you want a SOLID ship. To get a solid ship you need to spend close half your list or more to have a SOLID ship. Look at 3 generic x wings vs fat han. similiar points but Han is way better for the cost. Make the small ships worth there cost and you'll see more of them.

In your opinion, why is Han the better for the cost?

Let's look at soontir, he lives in the 35-36 point range and is completely worth his points (thanks to autothrusters) and is a great investment. Very rarely do I regret taking soontir fel. He is hard to hit, harder to 1 shot, fast, and has great action economy. Look at corran his base cost is 35. At 35 points who's better fel or corran? Fel hands down he is worth his cost. Corran needs to have points sunk into him to where he is almost half your list to be good thanks to his ability. Are you going to run generic e wings? No, because they don't perform up to there point cost. Are you going to run generic ties and z's? Yes because they're only 12 point filler. I'll take 2 naked bandits over a 24 point x wing every single day.

The problem isn't han, fel, ig, dash, rac, and the other things a lot of you guys whine about. Those ships are EXTREMELY cost effective. You get your points worth out of them and you aren't gambling by taking Hugh risk glass cannons. They are safe and solid.

Now some of you guys also complain about how boring the game gets seeing the same lists over and over at tournaments which is ludicrous and is another topic on its own. But I digress, if you want more variety ffg is going to do 1 of 2 things. 1. Nerf ships down so that lower tier ships can finally stand a chance and be seen. Imagine a game where everything is basically an x eing.

2. Boost lower tier ships with fixes from aces packs, epic ships, and upgrades from other releases.

Now you tell me what do you think 90% of the time FFG a company whose 1st priority is to make money is going to do?

They're gonna go with option 2 and honestly more power to them because it doesn't make some of our purchases obsolete and provides more content.

They could also introduce missions/objectives. That's something that would shake the entire game up without having to upgrade every ship.