Edited by GiraffeandZebraResults from Brussels have been posted. Hold your breath! No Fat Turrets in the Top 4, but lots of bombs!
Brussels, Belgium
May 16, 2015 Outpost Brussels
Attendance: 36
Info: https://www.facebook.com/events/487452348073997/
http://www.sw-xwing.com/t3905-Belgique-CR-de-Bruxelles-17-05-14.htm?start=60#p65360
List Juggler: TBD
- Winner: 2x Thug + ICT + BTL-A4 + Unhinged Astromech + Bomb Loadout + Seismic Charges; 2x Thug + ICT + BTL-A4 + Unhinged Astromech
- 2nd place: Kavil + Swarm Tactics + Autoblaster Turret + Unhinged Astromech + Bomb Loadout + Seismic Charges; 3x Thug + Autoblaster Turret + Unhinged Astromech + Bomb Loadout + Seismic Charges
- Top 4: Krassis + HLC + Recon Spec + Countermeasures; Soontir Fel + PtL + Targeting Computer + Stealth Device; Backstabber
- Top 4: BXAAAZ
[–] PCGamerPirate That's a bump[/size] [/size] 12 points[/size]
3 hours ago
I read this insightful post on FFG:
There are 4 things you can do when you think fat turrets are dominating the X-wing meta and you are unhappy:
1) Play the fat turret and dominate the meta.
2) Don't play fat turret and try to change the meta.
3) Complain about the meta and do nothing.
4) Quit.
Looks like they picked option 2.
2015 Regionals Results
Yeah i can still complain and not play turrets.
I tested the official FFG tournament software and I'll be honest, it needs work, especially since they are telling stores that using it determines who may host events in the future. It doesn't support adding players late, you have to manually enter MoV for reporting the match result, and it appears to have a bug where matching scores on the results page seem to randomly swap spots (imagine 3 tied scores randomly changing positions).
Unfortunately it means I'll have to do double entry in Cryodex as well because I just don't trust it to work well enough.
While it won't matter for regionals, it doesn't support the other tournament formats (eg escalation). It does seem to support the concept of "roles" for use in games like the SW:LCG.
I don't understand how FFG seem unable to build a decent tournament app... It seems like a very straight forward piece of software to develop.
#3 feels a little silly and is in there just to be snarky. Kind of hard to not do one of the other three - play a fat turret, play something that is not a fat turret, or don't play kind of covers 100% of the people on the face of the earth.
Results from Brussels have been posted. Hold your breath! No Fat Turrets in the Top 4, but lots of bombs!
Brussels, Belgium
May 16, 2015 Outpost Brussels
Attendance: 36
Info: https://www.facebook.com/events/487452348073997/
http://www.sw-xwing.com/t3905-Belgique-CR-de-Bruxelles-17-05-14.htm?start=60#p65360
List Juggler: TBD
- Winner: 2x Thug + ICT + BTL-A4 + Unhinged Astromech + Bomb Loadout + Seismic Charges; 2x Thug + ICT + BTL-A4 + Unhinged Astromech
- 2nd place: Kavil + Swarm Tactics + Autoblaster Turret + Unhinged Astromech + Bomb Loadout + Seismic Charges; 3x Thug + Autoblaster Turret + Unhinged Astromech + Bomb Loadout + Seismic Charges
- Top 4: Krassis + HLC + Recon Spec + Countermeasures; Soontir Fel + PtL + Targeting Computer + Stealth Device; Backstabber
- Top 4: BXAAAZ
[–] PCGamerPirate That's a bump[/size] [/size] 12 points[/size]
3 hours ago
I read this insightful post on FFG:
There are 4 things you can do when you think fat turrets are dominating the X-wing meta and you are unhappy:
1) Play the fat turret and dominate the meta.
2) Don't play fat turret and try to change the meta.
3) Complain about the meta and do nothing.
4) Quit.
Looks like they picked option 2.
My summary was, indeed, way more snarky.
Here's the actual post, it is far more constructive:
...Turrets aren't broken, they aren't overpowered they are very accurate for what they cost. I never claimed to be a genius or have all the answers. I don't see the point in complaining about top tier ships. In a competitive setting there will always be better things. So you can do a couple things.
1. Join them, nothing wrong with running top tier lists in a tournament.
2. Keep working to change the meta, this is not an easy path and isn't for the faint of heart. But I refuse to believe that they are unbeatable. Like we all said we've all beaten them before.
3. Complain and keep competing. At this point you're just a donor. You're donating your money to the store and not even having a good time.
4. Quit the game. Self explanatory.
I'm not a big fan of complaining. I think there are always opportunities out there. Look I can understand that we all want our investments to all be equally as good but that's not how it works in the real world. My favorite ship is the hwk 290 I loved the dark forces games and to see it in the game the way it plays as opposed to how it works in my head is disappointing. But such is life.
The overall point remains the same. Complaining about fat turrets is not as productive as actively playing to try to do something about it (like Belgium did).
Edited by pcgamerpirateTo recap the four options
1 stop enjoying the game, you came here for fast paced dog fighting, abandon that and accept the game is now nome of that.
2 Accept that you will lose, everyone going to tournaments knows they'll be up against fat turrets yet the fat turrets are winning an overwhelming majority of the events. You're not smarter than everyone else.
3 Accept that you will lose but try to bring the situation to peoples attention.
4 Accept the game is dead, sell your models while there is value.
Seriously this is the nightmare scenario. I said this pre wave sox, there is nothing stopping turrets.
Ps go y wings.
I really hate Fat Han. I stopped playing for a couple months because it ruined the game for me. I started back up on a fluke and low and behold... I still hate Fat Han. It's specifically C3PO and title. I am so glad that things that are not Fat Han are out there winning now. The game is fun again. Having God Tier squads is not good for the game and hopefully this has been addressed well enough. Anyway... The Ywing results are amazing!!
Edited by PoorEvader2SoonI don't understand how FFG seem unable to build a decent tournament app... It seems like a very straight forward piece of software to develop.
In a recent team covenant interview they said that the same guy who did the website is doing it. Because those skills are transferable...
I don't understand how FFG seem unable to build a decent tournament app... It seems like a very straight forward piece of software to develop.
In a recent team covenant interview they said that the same guy who did the website is doing it. Because those skills are transferable...
well, a paycheck is a paycheck
Results from Brussels have been posted. Hold your breath! No Fat Turrets in the Top 4, but lots of bombs!
Brussels, Belgium
May 16, 2015
Outpost Brussels
Attendance: 36
Info: https://www.facebook.com/events/487452348073997/
http://www.sw-xwing.com/t3905-Belgique-CR-de-Bruxelles-17-05-14.htm?start=60#p65360
List Juggler: TBD
- Winner: 2x Thug + ICT + BTL-A4 + Unhinged Astromech + Bomb Loadout + Seismic Charges; 2x Thug + ICT + BTL-A4 + Unhinged Astromech
- 2nd place: Kavil + Swarm Tactics + Autoblaster Turret + Unhinged Astromech + Bomb Loadout + Seismic Charges; 3x Thug + Autoblaster Turret + Unhinged Astromech + Bomb Loadout + Seismic Charges
- Top 4: Krassis + HLC + Recon Spec + Countermeasures; Soontir Fel + PtL + Targeting Computer + Stealth Device; Backstabber
- Top 4: BXAAAZ
This tournamant is maybee a officilial but the organiser use customs rules: 5 round for all and the 6th is the final, but the 5th round is locked in bracket so the 4th and the 3rd havent 3 victories on 5 games and the 5th 6th 9th and 10th have 4 victories on 5 games...
so that change nothing on the top 2 Y wing list (the 1st is french comming to belgium to play because regional in his land is too far for him) but at points the 3rd is a Wedge/biggs/X/X , 4th is a ZBXAAA, 5th (is me) with Carnor Kath Dark Curse, 6th decimator + swarm... and the tornament see list like 2 lambda tactician gunner + kath tactician (a guy who have 3 wins on 5 games)
Totaly fun to play but a little bit special for the ranking (does'nt follow official ffg rules)
and in case in Belgium the actual meta is more 2 IGs (last store tournament 5 list on 36)
To recap the four options
1 stop enjoying the game, you came here for fast paced dog fighting, abandon that and accept the game is now nome of that.
2 Accept that you will lose, everyone going to tournaments knows they'll be up against fat turrets yet the fat turrets are winning an overwhelming majority of the events. You're not smarter than everyone else.
3 Accept that you will lose but try to bring the situation to peoples attention.
4 Accept the game is dead, sell your models while there is value.
Seriously this is the nightmare scenario. I said this pre wave sox, there is nothing stopping turrets.
Ps go y wings.
What a load of fatalist drivel. Four Y-Wings just won a Regional Championship and you're going to tell us that this is the nightmare scenario? Give me a break.
Let's see how long a Decimator lasts against a withering barrage of torps after the release of the K-Wing and TIE Punisher.
I refuse to give up having a good time with X-Wing because a few people are upset at the competitive metagame.
What a load of fatalist drivel. Four Y-Wings just won a Regional Championship and you're going to tell us that this is the nightmare scenario? Give me a break.
There's an awful lot of unknowns for this to be a shining moment of redemption for the balance of the game.
Because there are a number of possibilities here. And if you look at the entire results, rather than cherrypicking the one you like, a very strange picture emerges.
Looking at the top half of the results (loading each list is a pain, easier to check the bottom half later) there are exactly two big primary turrets, both naked Decimators. That's it. You hold the 4 Y-wings up like it stood atop the glowing corpse of the meta, but that's pretty far from reality.
It doesn't look like some revolutionary brilliance in discovering just how awesome Y-wings are, it looks more like either a VERY isolated meta, or a bunch of top players who all agreed to play counter to the meta. Which is fine, of course, if that's what they want to do, but trying to use it as a way to score points about the larger state of the game is a mistake. It's an outlier at best. At worst, it's an intentionally manipulated data point.
What a load of fatalist drivel. Four Y-Wings just won a Regional Championship and you're going to tell us that this is the nightmare scenario? Give me a break.
There's an awful lot of unknowns for this to be a shining moment of redemption for the balance of the game.
Because there are a number of possibilities here. And if you look at the entire results, rather than cherrypicking the one you like, a very strange picture emerges.
Looking at the top half of the results (loading each list is a pain, easier to check the bottom half later) there are exactly two big primary turrets, both naked Decimators. That's it. You hold the 4 Y-wings up like it stood atop the glowing corpse of the meta, but that's pretty far from reality.
It doesn't look like some revolutionary brilliance in discovering just how awesome Y-wings are, it looks more like either a VERY isolated meta, or a bunch of top players who all agreed to play counter to the meta. Which is fine, of course, if that's what they want to do, but trying to use it as a way to score points about the larger state of the game is a mistake. It's an outlier at best. At worst, it's an intentionally manipulated data point.
I appreciate what you're saying, but you're putting words in my mouth.
I'm not claiming the four Ys are the saviours of the meta, but this is a definite example that you can have a regional tournament where either turrets don't win, or people aren't playing them because they're not as fun as other ships.
It's not an example of turrets being defeated, as much as it is an example of fun winning out for these Belgian fliers, and I salute them for that.
However, I do stand by my statement that cheaper ordinance could stand a really good chance of melting things like the Decimator.
Honestly, why are people still whining about fat turrets in 2015 when there are so many options to counter them?
FYI: The Malaga regional was played on Sunday and here are the results: http://www.rojocinco.es/2015/05/x-wing-clasificacion-listas-y-fotos_20.html?m=1#more
There were 51 participants that played 4 rounds of Swiss and top 8. The lists in the link are the top 8 (in descending order) with Paul Heaver's worlds list beating the bro bots in the final. Also, a 4 X-Wing list made it to top 4.
Edited by darthlurker
this is a definite example that you can have a regional tournament where either turrets don't win, or people aren't playing them because they're not as fun as other ships.
Let's leave aside the former, because it's BS - the only way you get an entire top half without any serious showing by a turret list is if people intentionally decide not to take them, so it's certainly not an example of turrets not winning.
And for the second... what does it prove, exactly? That a tight-knit group can intentionally skew the results away from the meta? Of course they can, and claiming that as if it proves something is pure banality. Of course they can. By definition, the metagame only exists when people are actually gaming against each other. Claiming this shows anything at all about the broader state of X-wing is like holding up a play group that doesn't ever roll defense dice as an example of why Phantoms have no balance issues, or an entire group that refused to buy Tantive IVs opining on how their experience had shown C-3PO was perfectly fine.
Whether they agreed not to run any primary turrets (and it really seems like they must have) or they have a truly isolated meta where they never get used, their environment is such a different game it truly can't say anything about the larger X-wing game.
Whether they agreed not to run any primary turrets (and it really seems like they must have) or they have a truly isolated meta where they never get used, their environment is such a different game it truly can't say anything about the larger X-wing game.
See I'm not so sure there was an agreement to 'not run turrets'. There were 3 Dash's and 2 Decimators. While not the sort of representation we usually see, if turrets were a league above everything else, then we should have expected at least 1 to be in the top 4.
I'll give you the naked patrol leader was a bit weird, but there was also THE 58 point Dash supported by Corran. That's not exactly a second rate build, and if there is some local meta restriction, then this outrider (heh) should have had a strong placing. The other Dash builds didn't strike me as being all that unorthodox either.
See I'm not so sure there was an agreement to 'not run turrets'. There were 3 Dash's and 2 Decimators. While not the sort of representation we usually see, if turrets were a league above everything else, then we should have expected at least 1 to be in the top 4.Whether they agreed not to run any primary turrets (and it really seems like they must have) or they have a truly isolated meta where they never get used, their environment is such a different game it truly can't say anything about the larger X-wing game.
I'll give you the naked patrol leader was a bit weird, but there was also THE 58 point Dash supported by Corran. That's not exactly a second rate build, and if there is some local meta restriction, then this outrider (heh) should have had a strong placing. The other Dash builds didn't strike me as being all that unorthodox either.
No agreement but many newbie in the tournament (like 1/2 of players are in tournament for the first time)
Edited by TasteTheRainbowThere's an awful lot of unknowns for this to be a shining moment of redemption for the balance of the game.What a load of fatalist drivel. Four Y-Wings just won a Regional Championship and you're going to tell us that this is the nightmare scenario? Give me a break.
Because there are a number of possibilities here. And if you look at the entire results, rather than cherrypicking the one you like, a very strange picture emerges.
Looking at the top half of the results (loading each list is a pain, easier to check the bottom half later) there are exactly two big primary turrets, both naked Decimators. That's it. You hold the 4 Y-wings up like it stood atop the glowing corpse of the meta, but that's pretty far from reality.
It doesn't look like some revolutionary brilliance in discovering just how awesome Y-wings are, it looks more like either a VERY isolated meta, or a bunch of top players who all agreed to play counter to the meta. Which is fine, of course, if that's what they want to do, but trying to use it as a way to score points about the larger state of the game is a mistake. It's an outlier at best. At worst, it's an intentionally manipulated data point.
To recap the four options
1 stop enjoying the game, you came here for fast paced dog fighting, abandon that and accept the game is now nome of that.
2 Accept that you will lose, everyone going to tournaments knows they'll be up against fat turrets yet the fat turrets are winning an overwhelming majority of the events. You're not smarter than everyone else.
3 Accept that you will lose but try to bring the situation to peoples attention.
4 Accept the game is dead, sell your models while there is value.
Seriously this is the nightmare scenario. I said this pre wave sox, there is nothing stopping turrets.
Ps go y wings.
4 Y-wings? Those crazy Germans.
Ummm....Belgians.
Ooops.
Yeah... they're closer to the French than the Germans. Good people.
Jacob
*cough* Or the Dutch.
Current facts says turrets win atm. Wishing that it could magically be dispelled if you "try enough" is futile. The basis for the math behind the discussion is that those factors are irrelevant or else the math would be! Thus the argument lacks credibility.
I put my faith in the math and it is disheartening.
It's not exactly hard to see that a kill-style game will gravitate towards preserving the maximum amount of VP vs Killing Power. Scenario games avoid this trap, but I don´t see X-Wing working in that that style. We need better Tools to divide Winners and Losers as MJ says.
Current facts says turrets win atm. Wishing that it could magically be dispelled if you "try enough" is futile. The basis for the math behind the discussion is that those factors are irrelevant or else the math would be! Thus the argument lacks credibility.
I put my faith in the math and it is disheartening.
It's not exactly hard to see that a kill-style game will gravitate towards preserving the maximum amount of VP vs Killing Power. Scenario games avoid this trap, but I don´t see X-Wing working in that that style. We need better Tools to divide Winners and Losers as MJ says.
Current facts says turrets win atm. Wishing that it could magically be dispelled if you "try enough" is futile. The basis for the math behind the discussion is that those factors are irrelevant or else the math would be! Thus the argument lacks credibility.
I put my faith in the math and it is disheartening.
It's not exactly hard to see that a kill-style game will gravitate towards preserving the maximum amount of VP vs Killing Power. Scenario games avoid this trap, but I don´t see X-Wing working in that that style. We need better Tools to divide Winners and Losers as MJ says.
It is more realizing that the meta just had a MAJOR shift with the change do Decloaking. A change that is barely a month old. The meta hasn't settled, yet imo. Yes, the turrets seem to be winning, but diversity is beginning to crop up. A wait and see approach is needed to see exactly where this goes. But, the top 8's are very encouraging.
Something is always going to be on top. And there will alwasy be a group that wants the top "fixed'.
Current facts says turrets win atm. Wishing that it could magically be dispelled if you "try enough" is futile. The basis for the math behind the discussion is that those factors are irrelevant or else the math would be! Thus the argument lacks credibility.
I put my faith in the math and it is disheartening.
Like I said above I don't disagree that some(extremely diverse) turret builds are solid, but there is nothing in the math that says you can only win by bringing a turret. Read some of the batreps from finals. The results were definitely NOT a foregone conclusion.