Dash + LW + Recon + outrider + HLC

Corran + VI + R2D2 + FCS + Engine

Won over

4 Tala

4 Bandit

At the 401 games Regional, Toronto, Ontario

53 players. Top 8 was all untimed rounds.

Some additional anecdotes and impressions about Toronto:

- The event was capped at 53 and sold out a few weeks before the event. The event could easily have been much larger I think.

- I only counted TWO YT-1300 squads in the entire event

- I saw surprisingly few TIE fighters on the tables. Looks like this old standard may be fading away...?

- There were 4B lists everywhere

- There were a lot of Decimator lists, especially paired with Soontir (at least two made top 8 I know)

- There were a lot of YT-2400 lists

- There was an unusually high number of Firesprays on the tables I thought

- I saw no scum Z-swarms (i.e. 6-8 Zs)

Can't wait to see turrets win Ohio's regional mwahahaha

I can imagine why Ties aren't making appearances in full swarms. It's ******* difficult to play that many games with 7+ ships. Sh*t'll fry your brain.

Plus, nothing more discouraging than playing one of the most mentally involving lists in the game just to have ties pop to some bad dice

Surprised we don't see more Soonts + mini-swarm though. That's some potent stuff right there, though I suppose it's still 6+ ships.

Some updates / clarifications for the Barcelona, Spain Regionals via PM / email:

It could be that those Interceptor players and BBBB players are just trying to remember how to play those ships again. They were in moth balls for a while. It might just take another month or so to really see some results. Maybe.

Just give me til Saturday. It'll either be a colossal upset or colossal failure.

That, or they are still as vulnerable to the old tactics of blocking/double-stress/unavoidable damage as they were upon release.

Granted, the latter is more widespread now than "back then".

I want to see some 7 ship TIE swarms come back. It can be done with good pilots. Dom recently won the charity event in Chicago I think with a swarm.

I want to see some 7 ship TIE swarms come back. It can be done with good pilots. Dom recently won the charity event in Chicago I think with a swarm.

I think "good" is a bit too little

Against novice turrets, all you need to do is maintain formation and roll them into submission

Against competitive guys with practiced lists in a game taking place after you've already run the gauntlet of several prior games while also scrambling for m.o.v...

Well, let's just say you better love the swarm enough to really have practiced with it

I know I wouldn't be able to place well if I flew mine

Dash + LW + Recon + outrider + HLC

Corran + VI + R2D2 + FCS + Engine

Won over

4 Tala

4 Bandit

At the 401 games Regional, Toronto, Ontario

53 players. Top 8 was all untimed rounds.

Some additional anecdotes and impressions about Toronto:

- The event was capped at 53 and sold out a few weeks before the event. The event could easily have been much larger I think.

Ya this ^ Capped at 54 I think, (had 1 no-show).They had room for 30 tables I think. It was posted prior to the event though, that if you showed up on the day of without pre-registering it was possible that they would have make room for more players. Though who is going to risk travelling into the city on a chance, just to get turned away.

Richard Hsu was the dual IG88 list:

B&C: Determination, HLC, FCS, AT, ID, Title, and Seismic on B.

The heart-wrenching disappointment at seeing all these fatties is abated only by Xizor's slow, steady creeping up the rankings

I do think it is important to note that many of these results from these Regional events are outside the U.S. This is important because...

1. From what I remember, MANY of those countries had JUST finished up their Store Champ events in March. This means they've only had one month or less to prepare for Regional's. The obvious choice when not having enough prep time is to stick with what you know, and that just happens to be the lists we are seeing. I'll have to go back through the Store Champ results to confirm, so correct me if I'm wrong!

2. They received their Wave 6 stuff later than us, and new Waves are generally less available in other countries, meaning less time to hash out good lists with the new Wave.

On another topic, I also think that the flexibility that Fast Turrets and High PS Arc Dodgers allow you means they will probably never go out of style now that these ships have the upgrades necessary to win consistently. If I walk in with a Swarm, I have 3/4 starting formations that I might use, and I certainly prefer a small number of asteroid setups. When playing Fast Turrets and arc dodgers, your setup and approach can 90% be determined by how the rocks were layed out, and how the enemy places their ships. There is almost no need to set a pattern, making it very easy to come up with winning strategies on the fly.

Why? A powerful ship that was countered by turrets was made worse. Turrets were the way to go before something they countered got removed. If your options are rock scissors scissors and you remove one of the scissors options, rock still wins.

This was my issue from day one. Changing Decloaking is fine, but doing nothing to Turrets in return makes no sense. If one was OP and needed to be changed, why not change both? Turrets were dominating tournies before Phantoms got nerfed, and they will continue to. One less scissor indeed.

It makes sense to me to take a stepwise approach. It was entirely plausible that the rise of fat turrets was a reaction to the Phantom's power level, so if fixing the Phantom fixes both of those issues, then FFG has done a lot of good with one change. If fixing the Phantom leaves fat turrets in control--and, let's be clear, the problem is at least no worse, and we're seeing a lot more diversity in Top 8 than we did in Wave 5--then FFG can take additional action to fix it.

I wish they were moving a little more quickly on the topic, but the overall approach is hard for me to fault.

I think you guys are missing the full distortion effect of ps9 whisper. The popularity of old whisper made things that could hunt turrets nearly unplayable at competitive events. It also made a ton of other lists completely unplayable.

The relative popularity of turrets isn't like that. Fat Han's existence doesn't make any other specific ship or list archetype unplayable. And turrets are a large, diverse set of lists. They all have different counters and different weaknesses. Even Han has 3 fairly different solid builds that are susceptible to and prey on entirely different lists.

Now those things that can handle turrets are slowly coming back. It'll take awhile to settle. Diversity right now is higher is higher than it has been in the last year. Look at the regionals after wave 4 launch, lol.

Yeah, it's a big step to conflate a 55-point suicide bomber like Chiraneau + Vader + Gunner with a highly defensive Han, or to confuse either of them for a hyper-mobile Dash.

Just wait until Kihraxz drops. That thing is gonna destroy turrets.

what, the sh*tty X-wing?

unless it's got uber-thrusters hidden in that godawful HWK statline, it's going to get wrecked

We have no idea how much it costs. We have no idea what its dial looks like. A smart person, observing the lack of facts in play here, would avoid making hyperbolic predictions.

Just wait until Kihraxz drops. That thing is gonna destroy turrets.

what, the sh*tty X-wing?

unless it's got uber-thrusters hidden in that godawful HWK statline, it's going to get wrecked

We have no idea how much it costs. We have no idea what its dial looks like. A smart person, observing the lack of facts in play here, would avoid making hyperbolic predictions.

We have the stats and the action bar right in front of us not to mention at least a projected estimate of of the price working back from Cobra.

given the several, disheartening similarities to what is not a very effective ship overall, it does not take a genius to make predictions.

Though I probably should have added "my guess is" and stuff, because it's true, it's not set in stone. And honestly, I'd be far happier to be proven wrong than right in this case. However, my gut is telling me that I'm firmly in the "Miracle Max" camp

If it is a 20 point base for the PS2 pilot, has access to the 1 straight and 5 straight, along with a couple white turns, no red banks, and 2 K turns, I think we start seeing a "pure jouster" that could be effective.

I'm sure you mean 2 different k turns and not a 2 k

I love me some B-wings, but if the X-wing has any leg up on them its definitely the 4k when flying against large ships

but eh, time will tell. Scum definitely needs a more efficient 3 dice small ship (insofar as there is that gap to be filled in the faction, given the generic Viper's efficiency), I'm just not sure if FFG will deliver.

Waiting for new stuff is always hellish

I'm sure you mean 2 different k turns and not a 2 k

I love me some B-wings, but if the X-wing has any leg up on them its definitely the 4k when flying against large ships

Yes. A 5k and a 3 K seem reasonable. A 5 and 2 would be awesome.

If your options are rock scissors scissors and you remove one of the scissors options, rock still wins.

Disregarding what you're trying to represent with that metaphor...

If your options are rock, paper and scissors, and scissors is removed, you're left with rock and paper. In that case, paper wins - not rock.

Obviously. What is the paper to large turrets rock? There isn't one is the point I was making. But thank you for explaining rock paper scissors to me. I was previously unaware of a third option

the outrider does have a range restriction, unless it's rolling the terribly inefficient mangler in which case it's still not getting +1 attack die at range 1

mangler outriders are like teeny tiny Han solos, they're just nibbling annoyances next to the idiocy of han and chiri in that they also can only be "outplayed" by dice, but they're incredibly easy to out roll (no guaranteed damage mitigation will do that to ya)

HLC Dash may be a fast bastard, but reliance on PTL (holy ****, honest to god block-able actions that matter ) and the range 1 bubble give you almost infinitely more counterplay options compared to "oh, I'm blocked? Guess I get to do everything anyway apart from evade/boost" and "oh, you can shoot me? I'm not on an asteroid, so I get to shoot you first"

Imo, I'd agree that all secondary weapon turrets are very acceptable because they have actual limitations (mangler outrider outside, but at least it sucks)

HLC Dash actually scares me more than Han. The only ship that made it easy to exploit the range 1 donut was the Phantom. I thought running Vader with engine upgrade would also be simple, but it really isn't. That large ship barrel roll + boost (assuming EU) covers an incredible distance, but I wouldn't be too bothered by if asteroids were actually an issue! A good Dash player can easily cut off avenues of approach using asteroids. I had no issues with HLC Dash until I realized how hard it was to actually exploit the range 1 donut relative to the difficulty of flying Dash.

The most viable option is to block and ability to do so consistently will depend on your list.

If your options are rock scissors scissors and you remove one of the scissors options, rock still wins.

Disregarding what you're trying to represent with that metaphor...

If your options are rock, paper and scissors, and scissors is removed, you're left with rock and paper. In that case, paper wins - not rock.

Obviously. What is the paper to large turrets rock? There isn't one is the point I was making. But thank you for explaining rock paper scissors to me. I was previously unaware of a third option

Oh dear god, I just noticed that you said "rock scissors scissors "...

And now I feel like an ass, hehe.

Sorry about that!

If your options are rock scissors scissors and you remove one of the scissors options, rock still wins.

Disregarding what you're trying to represent with that metaphor...

If your options are rock, paper and scissors, and scissors is removed, you're left with rock and paper. In that case, paper wins - not rock.

Obviously. What is the paper to large turrets rock? There isn't one is the point I was making. But thank you for explaining rock paper scissors to me. I was previously unaware of a third option

Oh dear god, I just noticed that you said "rock scissors scissors "...

And now I feel like an ass, hehe.

Sorry about that!

Haha, now I feel like a jerk for my response.

the outrider does have a range restriction, unless it's rolling the terribly inefficient mangler in which case it's still not getting +1 attack die at range 1

mangler outriders are like teeny tiny Han solos, they're just nibbling annoyances next to the idiocy of han and chiri in that they also can only be "outplayed" by dice, but they're incredibly easy to out roll (no guaranteed damage mitigation will do that to ya)

HLC Dash may be a fast bastard, but reliance on PTL (holy ****, honest to god block-able actions that matter ) and the range 1 bubble give you almost infinitely more counterplay options compared to "oh, I'm blocked? Guess I get to do everything anyway apart from evade/boost" and "oh, you can shoot me? I'm not on an asteroid, so I get to shoot you first"

Imo, I'd agree that all secondary weapon turrets are very acceptable because they have actual limitations (mangler outrider outside, but at least it sucks)

HLC Dash actually scares me more than Han. The only ship that made it easy to exploit the range 1 donut was the Phantom. I thought running Vader with engine upgrade would also be simple, but it really isn't. That large ship barrel roll + boost (assuming EU) covers an incredible distance, but I wouldn't be too bothered by if asteroids were actually an issue! A good Dash player can easily cut off avenues of approach using asteroids. I had no issues with HLC Dash until I realized how hard it was to actually exploit the range 1 donut relative to the difficulty of flying Dash.

The most viable option is to block and ability to do so consistently will depend on your list.

That's pretty much exactly the problem I had in my Top 8 match. If I tried to chase, he could keep in range of just a single ship fairly easily(he was to be fair pretty **** good at judging distances), if I slowed down...he could still do the same thing. If I got one of my stress causing ships in range to shoot at all, he'd simply not PTL. I'm sure there's things I could have done differently, but I feel the same way in regards to the asteroids. If Dash's ability was different(don't lose Perform Action but still roll damage dice, or vice versa) maybe it'd be a different story, but being able to ignore them entirely while moving makes trying to effectively follow him rough, and if you're already not fast enough to catch him it gets tricky trying to block.

the outrider does have a range restriction, unless it's rolling the terribly inefficient mangler in which case it's still not getting +1 attack die at range 1

mangler outriders are like teeny tiny Han solos, they're just nibbling annoyances next to the idiocy of han and chiri in that they also can only be "outplayed" by dice, but they're incredibly easy to out roll (no guaranteed damage mitigation will do that to ya)

HLC Dash may be a fast bastard, but reliance on PTL (holy ****, honest to god block-able actions that matter ) and the range 1 bubble give you almost infinitely more counterplay options compared to "oh, I'm blocked? Guess I get to do everything anyway apart from evade/boost" and "oh, you can shoot me? I'm not on an asteroid, so I get to shoot you first"

Imo, I'd agree that all secondary weapon turrets are very acceptable because they have actual limitations (mangler outrider outside, but at least it sucks)

HLC Dash actually scares me more than Han. The only ship that made it easy to exploit the range 1 donut was the Phantom. I thought running Vader with engine upgrade would also be simple, but it really isn't. That large ship barrel roll + boost (assuming EU) covers an incredible distance, but I wouldn't be too bothered by if asteroids were actually an issue! A good Dash player can easily cut off avenues of approach using asteroids. I had no issues with HLC Dash until I realized how hard it was to actually exploit the range 1 donut relative to the difficulty of flying Dash.

The most viable option is to block and ability to do so consistently will depend on your list.

That's pretty much exactly the problem I had in my Top 8 match. If I tried to chase, he could keep in range of just a single ship fairly easily(he was to be fair pretty **** good at judging distances), if I slowed down...he could still do the same thing. If I got one of my stress causing ships in range to shoot at all, he'd simply not PTL. I'm sure there's things I could have done differently, but I feel the same way in regards to the asteroids. If Dash's ability was different(don't lose Perform Action but still roll damage dice, or vice versa) maybe it'd be a different story, but being able to ignore them entirely while moving makes trying to effectively follow him rough, and if you're already not fast enough to catch him it gets tricky trying to block.

If you're chasing turrets without auto thrusters then you're playing into his strengths. When your're behind them and moving first you're letting them control the engagement. Oh you're range 1 let boost or barrel roll. Oh you have tactician let me just boost to range 3... You need to break off and force him to come back towards you so you can potentially cut him off. Never ever chase turrets.

Earlier this year at a SC played a guy who brought 5 a wings with prockets. He set up in the left corner and I deployed right across from him. I could see his eyes getting bigger at the thought of me jousting him and him getting to roll 25 dice at my Yt's. I went 1 forward the first round and he of course screamed forward with a 5 and boost. Next turn he did his 5 and focused and I did 1 turns with boosts and right then and there I had just won the game. He would never get his prockets off at that point and my ships were faster and he could never block me. I stayed at range 2 and 3 all day and only let 1 ship ever catch me in arc. poor guy never realized that he should have broke off and tried again...