For the St Pete finals, this:

• Top 8: Soontir; Turr; Bounty Hunter ( upgrades on all unknown)

Soontir+PTL+AT+HU+RGT

BH+IA

He was one of my two losses.

I can fill in the Champ's squad once I get home. Carlos and I played on Vassal a few days before he went on to win it and I have the logfile with the squad he played. He really deserved the title IMO, he got tabled his first match and just flew casually for the rest of the tourney thinking he didn't have a chance to make top 8. Best part of the tournament for me was meeting the cool players from around the State. The second best part was hearing Carlos apologize to his (verysupportive and present) wife/GF for winning and making the cut.

I believe the last squad was dual aggressors B&C with VI+AT+HLC+FBA+AT+FCS+Title, played by Gage. It's possible he didn't make the cut, but unlikely. We were 7th & 8th going into the 5th game and he tabled me with with full MOV. Don't quote me on that without confirmation from another source though.

I can confirm. Gage made the cut, and that was his build.

Edit: I am bad at internets. Only the last sentence was mine, everything els is a quote.

MFW seeing these results

Good thing Phantoms got nerfed, though...amirite?!?

I think people are reading a bit much into a fairly small sample of winners here.

Obviously the Australian regionals are going to be nothing but Y-Wings because down here we're all crazy people.

also funny enough all this talk of Phantom nerf giving swarm lists the ability to check the turrets sounds so incredibly wishful and illogical. It feels like listening to trickle-down economics.

People were insisting that the only reason turrets became so popular was because of Phantoms. Forget that they're easy to fly (advantageous on a long day of play!) and the subsequent cards that were released to give them greater survivability. What, exactly, is so risky about bringing a list with a hardy ship that always has a shot? And the Phantom nerf actually helped HLC Super Dash as it was the most capable ship of exploiting the range 1 donut.

also funny enough all this talk of Phantom nerf giving swarm lists the ability to check the turrets sounds so incredibly wishful and illogical. It feels like listening to trickle-down economics.

Fat turrets are a swarm counter, they can boost out of arcs and absorb damage from ships that do get shots. It's not rock paper scissors, its turret turret turret

It makes me want to bring out my 4 Tie Bomber list. It eats Fat Turrets for breakfast. I don't think it can get to the final tables, though, as it doesn't do well vs. bro bots and Soontir.

I think people are reading a bit much into a fairly small sample of winners here.

Well we also had nationals, worlds the team covenant open and store championship season get dominated by fat turrets. I'm not sure what sample size you're looking for but we're fast approaching a year of dominance

If you get a big ship below half health you should get half points for mov. Simple as that.

As much as I enjoy the incredibly delayed reaction against the stupidity of the primary turret advantage, I do kind of wish it wasn't just because of competitive play. The rule is garbage in general because it has no place in a game that places such emphasis on tactical maneuvering, unless it's typically a good idea to only let one of the two players have fun.

Obviously the Australian regionals are going to be nothing but Y-Wings because down here we're all crazy people.

but Y-wings are turrets

2ndary turrets are just actually reasonable

I think people are reading a bit much into a fairly small sample of winners here.

Well we also had nationals, worlds the team covenant open and store championship season get dominated by fat turrets. I'm not sure what sample size you're looking for but we're fast approaching a year of dominance

Everything prior to 4/15/15 was a different game. A lot of lists that are out there doing well now could not have competed prior to wave 6 and/or decloak change.

12-15ish games, many of which were very close, doesn't say nearly as much about the overall state of the meta as the few hundred games that determined top 8's. Any analysis of winners should come with a "results not significant" caveat. Top 8 probably really says something.

As much as I enjoy the incredibly delayed reaction against the stupidity of the primary turret advantage, I do kind of wish it wasn't just because of competitive play. The rule is garbage in general because it has no place in a game that places such emphasis on tactical maneuvering, unless it's typically a good idea to only let one of the two players have fun.

But...but...muh autothrusters...

As much as I enjoy the incredibly delayed reaction against the stupidity of the primary turret advantage, I do kind of wish it wasn't just because of competitive play. The rule is garbage in general because it has no place in a game that places such emphasis on tactical maneuvering, unless it's typically a good idea to only let one of the two players have fun.

But...but...muh autothrusters...

will let you survive getting one-shot by hlcs

I think people are reading a bit much into a fairly small sample of winners here.

Well we also had nationals, worlds the team covenant open and store championship season get dominated by fat turrets. I'm not sure what sample size you're looking for but we're fast approaching a year of dominance

Everything prior to 4/15/15 was a different game. A lot of lists that are out there doing well now could not have competed prior to wave 6 and/or decloak change.

12-15ish games, many of which were very close, doesn't say nearly as much about the overall state of the meta as the few hundred games that determined top 8's. Any analysis of winners should come with a "results not significant" caveat. Top 8 probably really says something.

Why? A powerful ship that was countered by turrets was made worse. Turrets were the way to go before something they countered got removed. If your options are rock scissors scissors and you remove one of the scissors options, rock still wins.

Why? A powerful ship that was countered by turrets was made worse. Turrets were the way to go before something they countered got removed. If your options are rock scissors scissors and you remove one of the scissors options, rock still wins.

This was my issue from day one. Changing Decloaking is fine, but doing nothing to Turrets in return makes no sense. If one was OP and needed to be changed, why not change both? Turrets were dominating tournies before Phantoms got nerfed, and they will continue to. One less scissor indeed.

If your options are rock scissors scissors and you remove one of the scissors options, rock still wins.

Disregarding what you're trying to represent with that metaphor...

If your options are rock, paper and scissors, and scissors is removed, you're left with rock and paper. In that case, paper wins - not rock.

Why? A powerful ship that was countered by turrets was made worse. Turrets were the way to go before something they countered got removed. If your options are rock scissors scissors and you remove one of the scissors options, rock still wins.

This was my issue from day one. Changing Decloaking is fine, but doing nothing to Turrets in return makes no sense. If one was OP and needed to be changed, why not change both? Turrets were dominating tournies before Phantoms got nerfed, and they will continue to. One less scissor indeed.

Again, people thought, not unreasonably, that they were only dominant because of the Phantom. The problem with Autothrusters is that it's only usable on a few ships. It would be nice to see primary turret ships have one less attack die when attacking outside of arc and one could scrap autothrusters altogether. At least secondary turrets have range limitations (Outrider aside...) and I think it balances them perfectly.

I think you guys are missing the full distortion effect of ps9 whisper. The popularity of old whisper made things that could hunt turrets nearly unplayable at competitive events. It also made a ton of other lists completely unplayable.

The relative popularity of turrets isn't like that. Fat Han's existence doesn't make any other specific ship or list archetype unplayable. And turrets are a large, diverse set of lists. They all have different counters and different weaknesses. Even Han has 3 fairly different solid builds that are susceptible to and prey on entirely different lists.

Now those things that can handle turrets are slowly coming back. It'll take awhile to settle. Diversity right now is higher is higher than it has been in the last year. Look at the regionals after wave 4 launch, lol.

If your options are rock scissors scissors and you remove one of the scissors options, rock still wins.

Disregarding what you're trying to represent with that metaphor...

If your options are rock, paper and scissors, and scissors is removed, you're left with rock and paper. In that case, paper wins - not rock.

There is no paper. Thats the joke.

Corran Horn is the paper.

Why? A powerful ship that was countered by turrets was made worse. Turrets were the way to go before something they countered got removed. If your options are rock scissors scissors and you remove one of the scissors options, rock still wins.

This was my issue from day one. Changing Decloaking is fine, but doing nothing to Turrets in return makes no sense. If one was OP and needed to be changed, why not change both? Turrets were dominating tournies before Phantoms got nerfed, and they will continue to. One less scissor indeed.

Again, people thought, not unreasonably, that they were only dominant because of the Phantom. The problem with Autothrusters is that it's only usable on a few ships. It would be nice to see primary turret ships have one less attack die when attacking outside of arc and one could scrap autothrusters altogether. At least secondary turrets have range limitations (Outrider aside...) and I think it balances them perfectly.

the outrider does have a range restriction, unless it's rolling the terribly inefficient mangler in which case it's still not getting +1 attack die at range 1

mangler outriders are like teeny tiny Han solos, they're just nibbling annoyances next to the idiocy of han and chiri in that they also can only be "outplayed" by dice, but they're incredibly easy to out roll (no guaranteed damage mitigation will do that to ya)

HLC Dash may be a fast bastard, but reliance on PTL (holy ****, honest to god block-able actions that matter ) and the range 1 bubble give you almost infinitely more counterplay options compared to "oh, I'm blocked? Guess I get to do everything anyway apart from evade/boost" and "oh, you can shoot me? I'm not on an asteroid, so I get to shoot you first"

Imo, I'd agree that all secondary weapon turrets are very acceptable because they have actual limitations (mangler outrider outside, but at least it sucks)

Just wait until Kihraxz drops. That thing is gonna destroy turrets.

Just wait until Kihraxz drops. That thing is gonna destroy turrets.

what, the sh*tty X-wing?

unless it's got uber-thrusters hidden in that godawful HWK statline, it's going to get wrecked

IF I had to point at the reason why you'll never see x-wings, I'd sail right over the B-wings and straight to the fat turrets that just bowl through them with obese amounts of health. The special-Ks are not going to fare any better unless there's some magical wave 7 card that has gone unspoiled.

I think you guys are missing the full distortion effect of ps9 whisper. The popularity of old whisper made things that could hunt turrets nearly unplayable at competitive events. It also made a ton of other lists completely unplayable.

The relative popularity of turrets isn't like that. Fat Han's existence doesn't make any other specific ship or list archetype unplayable. And turrets are a large, diverse set of lists. They all have different counters and different weaknesses. Even Han has 3 fairly different solid builds that are susceptible to and prey on entirely different lists.

Now those things that can handle turrets are slowly coming back. It'll take awhile to settle. Diversity right now is higher is higher than it has been in the last year. Look at the regionals after wave 4 launch, lol.

This, in my opinion, is a reasonable and accurate analysis. Hopefully it will resonate throughout the forum community and bring peace to those whose hatred for turrets has brought them to the darkside of X-wing.

Also, maybe Elephants will fly.

Dash, Han/Chewie, Chirpy, yes those turrets are rather dominant right now. not many BBBBZ lists featured yet, why is that? i also though IG-88 lists would do better but i guess we only have a small sample so far right?

BBBBZ is a bit overated. It did well in store championships because:

1. There were ALOT more decimators (they are still around of course but good god were there a lot in wave 5), and while engine upgrade and very good flying can pull that off, it's pretty much game over if the decimator gets stuck somewhere.

2. Aggressors are usually pretty good against these I think.

3. Not enough dashes to put them in their place ;P

4. Triple interceptors or something similar now that autothrusters is out.

5. And the biggest reason of all, this list was often ahead on points at the 60 minute mark, but probably not so much at 75 mins.

In Toronto we had a BBBB Panick Attack variant finish 9, BBBYZ finish 11th, and I believe two more BBBBZ lists finishing in the top 16. So the Bs were just missing out.

Interestingly my BBBYZ beat two Dash + Corran lists and a triple Interceptor list, though I specifically brought R3-A2 for those fights.

I think your reason #5 is spot on. The extra 15 mins is certainly a downfall for this list.