So crunch-wise the 2nd ed of Dark Heresy is pretty much okay: character generation is nice, some weapons and talents are tweaked, some changes and additions are kind of clunky (how to generate fate points, Subtlety etc) but still I would say that it's a good job ..

But fluffl-wise ... is it just me or is the Askellon Sector way more boring than 1st edition's Calixis Sector? Just a bunch of more planets, more cults, but it all feels a bit repetitive and redundant. I just perused The Enemy Within and it strengthens my conclusion: there not a lot of really interesting new ideas, concepts or storylines compared to the 1st edition. The Enemy Within can't hold a candle to Disciples of the Dark Gods, for example. Basically now it's all just variations on a theme with little originality. The recycled artwork seems to underline this.

What do you think?

It seems kinda unfair to compare the fully developed fluff of the 1st Edition (with a lot of supplements) to the 2 and a half books of the 2nd. I'll wait for a few books to judge it (I haven't gotten Enemy Within yet).

But until now I have no problems with the fluff. It is after all compatible with the 1st edition stuff. I just look at it as an addition and will use the cults and storylines from the first one if I'm uninterested in the ones from the 2nd (Hasn't happened yet, don't know if it ever will happen).

Exactly, the cores have roughly the same amount of fluff, and we can't really compare them until there's more stuff around.

Calixis was a good sector, but it was a barnyard of a sector. It had EVERYTHING. Every Inquisitor of every affiliation was there, more Heresies to purge than you could shake a stick at and at least half a dozen ancient menaces that all set their alarm clocks to wake up at the same time.

Askellon doesn't, it's a different sector.

Askellon doesn't, it's a different sector.

For now. Maybe they'll go at it differently than last time?

It's worth pointing out that Calixis started out pretty small as well. The fluff written by Black Industries featured only the remnants of a Space Marine presence, and the recent arrival of a whopping total of 50 Battle Sisters gave local nobility grounds for concern. It was not until the franchise switched hands and supplements were added that more and more stuff was crammed into the sector, from upping the presence of elite Imperial forces by a factor of 1000 to sector-spanning conspiracies within conspiracies.

It's probably supremely difficult to gauge what the majority wants. As this thread shows, there is a perceived need for more stuff, yet on the other hand there are also complaints from other people who feel it was too much .

Fluff is meh all over.

I'm running my game in Ultramar.

The Askellon Sector, in my opinion, is emblematic of the 40k universe: dark, gritty, corrupted. Not much Inquisitorial Presence, etc.

I like Calixis very much and I didn't like Askellon at first and the more I read, the better it came to my liking.

Anyway, in the campaign I GM, my players go from sectors to sectors to quell heresies, so no problem for me.

The Askellon sector is basically a rehash of the Calixis Sector: sin and heresy, end time prophecies, a big bad astro-stellar phenomenon (Pandaemonium vs Tyrant Star) ... but it lacks the sense of wonder and level of 'groundedness' of Calixis, with its history of the Haarlock voyages and Angevin Crusade IMHO ...

The Askellon sector is basically a rehash of the Calixis Sector: sin and heresy, end time prophecies, a big bad astro-stellar phenomenon (Pandaemonium vs Tyrant Star

Which is basically a rehash of the Imperium of Man as a whole; sin and heresy, end time prophecies, big bad astro-stellar phenomenon (Eye of Terrror).

It's 40k in a can.

It's 40k in a can.

This, it's a microcosm of the entire galaxy in a sector. Instead of Victorian Cthulhu influences we get a sector on the brink of collapse (End TImes of 40K as a whole).

But fluffl-wise ... is it just me or is the Askellon Sector way more boring than 1st edition's Calixis Sector? Just a bunch of more planets, more cults, but it all feels a bit repetitive and redundant. I just perused The Enemy Within and it strengthens my conclusion: there not a lot of really interesting new ideas, concepts or storylines compared to the 1st edition. The Enemy Within can't hold a candle to Disciples of the Dark Gods, for example. Basically now it's all just variations on a theme with little originality. The recycled artwork seems to underline this.

What do you think?

At first glance I didn't like this sector as much as Calixis but it has grown on me. It really is a good sector for ordo hereticus parties as so many problems described seem to revolve around crazy/corrupt/incompetent leadership of the sector and several interesting grey area political situations exist throughout the sector.

I think its too early to say the sector is boring compared to 1st ed as the Calixis sector got a lot of books to flesh it out. I'm hoping some other supplements are planned beyond the three ordos to further help with this.

The Askellon sector is basically a rehash of the Calixis Sector: sin and heresy, end time prophecies, a big bad astro-stellar phenomenon (Pandaemonium vs Tyrant Star) ... but it lacks the sense of wonder and level of 'groundedness' of Calixis, with its history of the Haarlock voyages and Angevin Crusade IMHO ...

I really don't see it as a rehash of the Calixis sector. They share some things in common which is to be expected seeing as they both have to capture the feel of the 40k setting and the Imperium but have some rather large differences in theme and detail. The Pandaemonium is much better defined and less mysterious than the Tyrant Star (or at least from what my GM revealed about the Tyrant Star and what little I read). Enough is known to at least classify the Pandaemonium as a warp storm and what worlds are generally most at risk.

The Calixis sector had a crazy amount of inquisition resources that at higher levels could lead it to feeling like you always could get appropriate backup. Askellon is really not like that at all. The PCs are much more on their own and have to be even more suspicious of imperium authorities.

This setting creates a far greater sense of futility as its far more obvious that heresy and decay greatly outweighs those combating it. Everything about Askellon feels more dilapidated and poorly run than the Calixis sector with things like the sector fleet being horribly mismanaged to the point that it ends up being more the backup for Rogue trader and Merchant fleets rather than the other way around.

The lack of wonder that you mention I think might be a side effect of this sector being dingier and more grim dark than Calixis. For example there isn't a list of badass hero level inquisitors in the book to act as a light in the darkness. Even the most powerful, influential worlds in Askellon are collapsing piles of misery and despair. I think its hard for a setting to both represent despair and inevitable deterioration at the same time as wonder.

As to the history of the sector I would say some of the stuff in Enemies Within starts to compare with things like the Angevin crusades and the Haarlock stuff. With events like The Vaxi Atrocity, the various fluff on Lord Dyrulli and the general idea that there is a massive conspiracy by the nobility to cover up past and current misdeeds by destroying the sector's history. I suspect this stuff will continue to be added to and fleshed out as we get more books

The good thing is that Enemies Within clearly states that the Askellon sector has a very limited number of inquisitors, or perhaps even just one. This makes it far more believable that mere acolytes actually can have some impact.

The bad thing, and it’s a very bad thing IMO, is that it continues the party line of all-powerful inquisitors killing everything in sight on the off chance of snuffing out their real target.

Why would players even bother to perform a proper investigation if they can just purge the entire hive city? Why even add investigation procedures in rules or as a player take investigative skills if all you need is a flamer and a rosette?

I’d like more fluff stories of desperate hab-block citizens (say a million or so) tearing an inquisitor and his little warband apart with improvised weapons instead of meekly being burnt on a pyre. Seriously, who doesn't fight back when faced with obvious death? Of a sector lord spacing some nutter with a rosette for destroying valuable resources (like indentured workers) so he can’t meet his quotas to the Imperium anymore. You know, just a little bit of realism to keep the whole setting happily churning along…

Why would players even bother to perform a proper investigation if they can just purge the entire hive city? Why even add investigation procedures in rules or as a player take investigative skills if all you need is a flamer and a rosette?

The planetary governor/Hive rulers are seldom without power and likely wouldn't take too kindly to seeing her/his/their fiefdom being burned to the ground.

The Inquisitor(s) may want to preserve the Emperor's realm intact and wield their powers like a scalpel, instead of a sledgehammer.

What would the "loyal" subjects do when they hear about the mass-killings "in the name of the Emperor" ?

Recruitment numbers for any shady groups/sects/gangs/heretics would go through the roof...

etc. etc.

By all means, have them burn down that hive, as long as they are prepared for any and all repercussions.

Disciples of the Dark Gods is still one of the best books ever produced in the 40k line, and sadly I believe it was mostly written up by the time FFG got their hands on it, so they can't claim much credit for it. One of the major things was that Calixis was different from normal 40k. Of course it maintained many of the same themes, but they were subtler than 40k normally does it, and the Tyrant Star, while a "warp thing of doom" at least was more distinctive than yet another warp storm, and much more mysterious, which suited the setting. It was never fully explained what it was (it was connected to lots of stuff, but it wasn't ever explained), firstly to maintain the mystery and secondly to allow GMs the freedom to decide for their own campaigns.

This is all while it was the focus of the setting: Dark Heresy is a translation of the pidgeon Latin "Hereticus Tenebrae," which was the prophecy regarding the Tyrant Star. However, there was all sorts of other stuff going on. You had the Slaught (and the Amaranthine Syndicate), Halo devices, minor cults, the Temple Tendency. There was other stuff going on apart from the big bad (ok, maybe the Slaught and the Halo Devices had something to do with the Tyrant Star... but that was your GMs decision) which added to the scale of the world. It helped reinforce the theme of "... and you shall not be missed", which I think is a vital part of a Dark Heresy campaign. Yes, you do your thwarting of plots etc, but no one will notice on the grand scheme. Even if you become a valued member of an Inquisitor's network, there are hundreds of Inquisitors, millions of plots, so you are not going to stand out. Even the greatest achievement will likely at best end up as a footnote on a forgotten scroll in some Administratum library that no one will ever read.

The Askellon Sector feels like "40k is Grimdark.... add more grimdark, and more warp storms, and grimdark. And the players will stride across planets smashing daemons in the middle of the warpy grimdark." Yeah, ok, an exaggeration, and I do remember finding a couple of things I found interesting (and I don't have the Enemy Within, so there might be there, but I am not a fan so far.

Why would players even bother to perform a proper investigation if they can just purge the entire hive city? Why even add investigation procedures in rules or as a player take investigative skills if all you need is a flamer and a rosette?

The planetary governor/Hive rulers are seldom without power and likely wouldn't take too kindly to seeing her/his/their fiefdom being burned to the ground.

The Inquisitor(s) may want to preserve the Emperor's realm intact and wield their powers like a scalpel, instead of a sledgehammer.

What would the "loyal" subjects do when they hear about the mass-killings "in the name of the Emperor" ?

Recruitment numbers for any shady groups/sects/gangs/heretics would go through the roof...

etc. etc.

By all means, have them burn down that hive, as long as they are prepared for any and all repercussions.

Yes, but the fluff doesn't mention any consequences! Inquisitors can do anything and everything and everyone just accepts it.

One strain within the Inquisition actively works to undermine the Imperium and nobody bats an eye. Inquisitors can fight out entire wars to determine an obscure point and nobody bats an eye....

In any setting with even a modicum of believability, this wouldn't fly. Individuals might still try it and (eventually) get hammered for damaging the Imperium. The organisation itself would face scrutiny and possible abolishment if too many nutcases were burning down the Imperium for then it was harming the imperium, not helping.

And that's what I would like to see in the fluff. That inquisitors and their acolytes may investigate anyone but need proof (yes, proof) before blamming the target of their investigation. Or that the innocent masses of the Imperium don't let themselves get killed by some psychopath with a rosette and instead fight back. They may well lose the fight but meekly accepting their death?

The Enemies Within describes some nutcase in a walking cathedral who considers everyone guilty, 'even if only guilty of wasting his time' and has them killed. How is that person still alive? Wouldn't everyone with a weapon try to kill him as soon as he shows up? And in 40k, practically everyone has a weapon....

As a long time rpg-er, I try to keep the 'willing suspension of disbelief' strong but 40k often strains that with things that just defy reason. The overarcing theme of 40k IMO is survival. Survival against the odds, with everything crumbling around mankind. Yet, that basic characteristic of man, the will to survive, is mysteriously on a 3-week holiday, when an inquisitor comes knocking with a flamer?

On the other hand, it is written in many places that Inquisitors tends to act subtly because the powers in place are too dangerous and corrupted to be trusted and they could muster forces that would let an Inquisitor without power and resources. They described the stereotypical witch hunter and I'm indeed against this vision, but there are many places where they speak that Inquisition presence in Askellon is very subtle.

We should never take only one part of what was said and consider it truth while all the rest says the opposite.

So yes, theoretical power vs whether it's practical to use it. A country here on earth can launch all of its nukes against the rest of the world, but is it practical or necessary to do so... there will be consequences nonetheless.

Yes, but the fluff doesn't mention any consequences! Inquisitors can do anything and everything and everyone just accepts it.

One strain within the Inquisition actively works to undermine the Imperium and nobody bats an eye. Inquisitors can fight out entire wars to determine an obscure point and nobody bats an eye....

Depends on the version of fluff you're looking at. Your last sentence here actually covers the first, for what do you think that "obscure point" is?

These are the consequences of their actions. Inquisitors owe accountability to no-one but the Emperor, but due to this, many Inquisitors also take it upon themselves to keep their own colleagues in check. You could say that the Inquisition is policing itself, even though this is entirely a product not of regulations and doctrine, but of a "natural evolution" of the policies and sweeping authority of this organisation. So if an Inquisitor is running amok, chances are they will, sooner or later, draw attention from their peers.

This is, ironically, an almost democratic process where several Inquisitors will convene to form a conclave and judge their accused Brother or Sister Inquisitor - and in their absence for swift execution will pool all their available resources, physical and political, into engineering the swift destruction of the heretic and whatever they've been working on.

Needless to say, by the time this happens the renegade Inquisitor will already have inflicted considerable damage upon entire worlds - but since in GW's version of the fluff, Inquisitors are a very rare breed and their meddling is something special, it does not come across as being as much of an issue there than in other interpretations of the setting where Inquisitors may appear to be a lot more common .. *coughCalixiscough*

Are you referring to Inquisitor Karamazov, by any chance? If so, in the 3E Witch Hunter codex there is a blurb about how he almost got himself killed once already when he imprisoned a potential Living Saint, much to the protest of the Ministorum. Other Inquisitors had already assembled a fleet of Space Marines in orbit and were ready to storm his fortress when he appeared with proof that the guy actually was a Chaos pawn after all.

Much like Chenkov, the guy is quite simply showing results. Once he actually messes up, he'll have an army of rivals on whose toes he stepped at some point in time swooping down on him like hungry vultures, but until that happens he is untouchable, save for the occasional black ops assassination attempt.

All this Inquisitorial infighting may also provide for a very cool campaign, by the way. An interesting break from the standard MO if both sides were told their enemies are the heretics. Will your players embrace this "Blue on Blue" and open fire without hesitation? Will they attempt to convince the enemy's grunts to lay down their weapons and switch sides? Or will they even begin questioning their own orders?

What lynata said! Inquisitors have ultimate paper authority. An Inquisitor can go up to basically anyone and imprison/kill/coerce them. An Inquisitor can burn down entire planets, kill sector governors, hijack imperial battle fleets, and ask questions historically left unasked. On paper. In practice people mostly let them get away with this, and more importantly Inquisitors are generally bad mofos with a ton of their own resources. An Inquisitor is not someone you want to have on your badside, because they can do worse than kill you and unless your friends were both really bold and well funded then there will be few if any repercussions.

Now while that is true if an Inquisitor melts a Planetary Governor with purple fire in the middle of his throne room with the palace guard surrounding him. That Inquisitor either better have those guards pacified, be rolling deep with a massive battleforce, or better be ready to run away with a high PR warp speed or otherwise teleporting away. A bold general might tell an Inquisitor that no, you can't have a regiment to go burn down this hive, I need them, and if the Inquisitor were to press the point violently that Inquisitor may very well end up dead. In an Inqusitor has tentacles growing out of his eye sockets, he's likely to catch a few shotgun shells if he walks into a arbiter precinct house, rosette or no. This is all ignoring being policed by the own. Inqusitors are wild, violent, resourceful bunch who are as unified as everyone else in the Imperium.

In my version of 40k, sometimes people do roll over for them. Even a traitor who considers themselves devout might see the =][=, realize how far he's gone. And turn himself in blubbering and confessing to everything. In the vain hope that he might be given a ritual execution that would absolve him of his sins. But just as that might happen, a corrupt arch bishop's honor guard of SOBs is isn't standing down because of a smile and a rosette. So they either have to get permission from someone further up the chain, have to get super sneaky, or have to kill a bunch of Sisters. All options that I feel are very much part of the tone of the Imperium, and fun to roleplay out. When you're just the henchmen to the crazy Inq, well things are even worse. Good luck exterminating that hive without a compelling argument. To me 40k is about conflict, everyone is fighting everyone with no realistic victory in sight, there's (almost)only war.

As far as the fluff goes. It's not a fair comparison, Calixis has had a ton more time to be fleshed out. Including tie ins with the other game lines which are hard to beat if you play more than one. And for us to superimpose our versions over it and grow familiar. Though I will say I prefer the overall tone of Calixis. It's sorta self contained, highly corrupt, teetering on the edge, it has almost everything you'd want for a composite of the Imperium. It's fairly high powered, and seems like maybe just maybe the status quo can be maintained, in this slightly less grimdark corner of the galaxy. Whereas Askellon seems a lot more low powered, and it's current tone makes it feel like a sector that is not on the precipice of disaster, but like one that is not only dying, but is doing so without a fight. It's more grimdark, which is fine, it's just not my preferred flavor of 40k. We'll see how it shakes out in 5 years or so. At the least I'm likely to have some vile antagonist flee there trying to shake the PCs, do a little tour of the place on their quest for vengeance.

What lynata said! Inquisitors have ultimate paper authority. An Inquisitor can go up to basically anyone and imprison/kill/coerce them. An Inquisitor can burn down entire planets, kill sector governors, hijack imperial battle fleets, and ask questions historically left unasked. On paper.

Quite so! GW's Thorian Sourcebook provides a good in-depth perspective regarding this authority:

Or provide/produce something resembling proof and watch the Sisters re-enact the last minutes of High Lord Vandire.

Depending on how you regard the Sororitas in your interpretation of the setting, they are the internal affairs department of the church, and they very much remember being "misled by false prophets" (so much so that an entire Major Order has permanently memorised it on their banner).

Indeed, but it would have to be pretty iron clad stuff. They can't leave it to chance that tiny cell of weirdos just doctored up a video. If that's all it took, think of how much easier BC characters would have it! But yeah, if you were had some (seemingly) bulletproof stuff you'd likely not have to fire a shot.

My view on acolytes is that just one more resource for Inquisitors. One that is more directly under their thumb. They can have, armies, fortresses, space stations, void ships, and agents of all stripes. From those working deep cover in the screaming vortex, to those snitching under pain of death in a high noble's house, to 3-6 man motley crews of investigators/murderers/victims. A somewhat reliable proxy for problems that the Inquisitor is either too good/lazy/busy for.