On Invocation: the IH allows Scholarly Lore (Imperial Creed) to give a bonus to Invocation tests (and the same for Occult). I'd imagine that an Invocation might not only resemble a prayer to the Emperor, but might actually be one. Add an Aquilla psy-focus (also likely the default form for Imperial Psykers) and your Invocation looks like a routine prayer to the ignorant.

I find that a reasonably easy solution is to force a phenomena roll only on a double, and a POTW roll only on a triple dice-roll. (or some variation of this). That way, the rolling of one power dice will never result in Phenomena, let alone Perils of the Warp. And even rolling two power dice only represents a channeling of power signifigant enough to cause wierd phenomena, but not a cross-dimensional event. Only when three dice are rolled does the probability of rolling a double begin to rise, and the probability of rolling a triple grows even larger.

This way, the danger of psyker-mischief rises in proportiion to the amount of power being channeled, which is in keeping with the fiction. A psyker could get along reasonably well, at high levels, with just one power dice roll and no chance of Phenomena. However, should he need overbleed effects or require a particularly large display of power, he begins treading on dangerous territory. Say he rolled four dice and got a 7,3,7 and 2. This would call for a phenomena roll. Say he rolled a 3,7,7 and a7. This would call for an automatic POTW roll. At five or six power dice, the chance of a double grows even higher still.

This nerfs the POTW effect a bit, but we have to rememebr that it stems from a tabletop mechancic (POTW). On the tabletop, all the psykers are always firing on all cylinders, blasting platoons apart with psychic lightening, befuddling entire armies minds, and calling forth demons fromt he warp. In other words, the tabletop psykers are pretty much always rolling at least four power dice (or more), hence their high propensity for POTW.

That's a little like how it's done for WFRP, isn't it? My memory fails me....

But I like the approach... might steal it

Nigh7gaun7 said:

Yes so much. You can justify it all you want, but it boils down to you want benefits of your character without the penalties. That's the textbook definition of twinking. The rest of the thread basically backs this up with "don't use the benefit if you don't want the penalty" advice.

If stating the truth means being a ****, I'll live with that.

TheFlatline said:

I suppose it's possible you're one of those people who thinks Perils is meant to be a permanent 1/10th chance of something going wrong for the psyker, but if you are, you need to go talk to FFG about eliminating Psychic Supremacy, Soul-Bound, and all the rest from the books, then, because it's all in there and they're all legitimate ways to avoid or lessen the risk of Perils of the Warp. You should also take a second to re-read the thread and get it through your head that I will be hindering myself by avoiding perils of the warp; until I get Psychic Supremacy, I have a 1/10th chance of getting perils of the warp any time I use any power at any strength and am thus limited to not using powers to avoid perils, no matter how much "twinking" I do. Which brings up the point that if I wanted to powergame, I wouldn't be playing this character in the first place, I'd be off combining biomancy and pyromancy and using my powers with reckless abandon.

As a side note, a justifying argument fundamentally changes the nature of things and therefore you cannot "boil down" past the justification without eliminating it as a valid point.

There is the talent Psychic Supremecy in DofDG. I cant remember the exact wording but it allows you to disregard the first 9 rolled for psychic phenomena with your chosen Discipline . I hope that helps some

TheFlatline said:

Nah, you're just being a ****. He's looking for a way to play his character concept, not powergame. He's limited by the poor game design that is the Perils of the Warp system.

Nigh7gaun7 said:

What the DH writers ought to address is the idea that there's a 1/10 chance that a demon is going to pop out of a Psyker's butt anytime they do something. That's not good game "balance," and it's totally at odds with the way Psykers are depicted in the fiction. Does Gregor Eisenhorn have a 10% chance to cause a PotW attack everytime he uses his telepathy to compel an enemy to step out of cover? Does Patience Kys have a 10% chance to trigger a PotW when she pins an enemy to a wall with her telekinesis? Of course not. Psykers wouldn't be reliable enough to be used as field agents at all if 1/10 uses of their power triggered a PotW attack.

Soulbound? I know it's mentioned in the book, but it makes no sense as a trait for a PC. Only Astropaths are made to endure soulbinding, which requires them to go all the way to Terra and back, and the process usually causes blindness. I guess it depends on your game, but I don't see an Astropath as a field agent who goes on missions. I mean, do you give the blind guy a gun?

Of course, the thing that causes people to think that a decently high chance of PotW is needed for game balance is that the writers have made it possible for PC Psykers to access all sorts of really high-end powers that probably also don't make sense. if you tone the power level of PC Psykers down a bit, then it would not unbalance the game at all to make the chance of a PotW attack smaller under normal circumstances (i.e., and by "normal circumstances," I mean you're not doing a funky ritual or auto-seance that would logically increase the likelihood of something bad happening).

I like the Perils system ... as you say Psykers have incredibly potent powers which only get more intense as they gain in profession ranking ... the Perils system keeps that in check. So why not simply lower the potency of the Psykic abilities and ditch the control system? Make them just like every other spell casting class in every other fantasy game?

No Eisenhorn doesn't manifest daemons when he uses his telepathy to draw someone out ... but then he uses that power, what, 4 times in every story? Primarily he relies on his other skills to get him through an encounter ...

DH is not like DnD where your profession determines your chance to hit or level of damage with a weapon; there is no reason a Psyker can't carry a good pistol or rifle around with him and make use of that when calling upon his powers would be going overboard.

Recall, too, that this system is trying to work in some of the Lovecraftian theme, which means people should not be rushing about tossing fireballs hither and yon - using "magic" should mean something.

If you want to be a little nicer to your Psykers, though, you could always allow them to spend a Fate Point to reroll their manifest attempt. (thus rerolling if they got a 9 the first time)

Jack of Tears said:

Eisenhorn uses his Psychic will a lot. But regardless, there's no indication that the reason he doesn't use it more is because he's afraid of anything akin to a PotW attack. Indeed, all indications are that he and the other Psykers we see in the fiction that serve the Inquisition (like Ravenor, Patience Kys, Commodus Voke, Heldane, etc.) are not even remotely concerned about such possibilities under normal operating conditions.

And my point was really that it makes no sense for the chance to be so high because Psykers are so ubiquitous to the setting, both inside and outside the Inquisition. If the chance of a PotW attack were really that high, they simply wouldn't be viable as field agents or in many of the positions Psykers are known to occupy in the Imperium of Mankind.

I agree that Psyker PCs shouldn't be able (or feel the need) to rely solely on their Psychic abilities, just as our favorite Psykers from the fiction are always capable of doing more than just using their powers. It's more quick wits and proper advance planning - as opposed to sheer personal power - that get them through the tough spots. Hopefully, it's the same in any good game of DH.

There are plenty of checks against Psykers becoming overpowered already built into the setting that don't require the use of an exaggerated and heavy-handed game mechanic - Untouchables, Enemy Psykers, Psi-Shielding, etc.

I think Psykers in the 40K setting are very different from generic spellcaster archetypes for lots of reasons, but I don't feel that the PotW mechanic does anything to enhance that. If anything, it's just like lots of other game mechanics that involve mis-casting/spell backfire/mana burn/etc.

The psyker power system would make more sense if there were modifiers for power level, or daemon proximity, or number of psykers working in concert, or experience level of the psyker, or...

Although it must be said 'sanctioned psykers' as they are literally written for DH have a great deal more in common with the eponymous model from the tabletop IG army. That guy can be a potent ace-in-the-hope, but he could also be a liability and waste of points. Whatever the case, he is a very creepy and pathetic-looking soul (not-withstanding the new primaris-psyker model). Furthermore, the design elements for being a sanctionite are quite un-stylish if not downright distrurbing. (blindness, constant muttering under the breath, irrational phobias) This is also in keeping with the sanctioned psyker for the tabletop. Perhaps the sorts of psykers we run into in Abnetts books are of a slightly different breed, or at least much higher level of training and discipline.

I think this concept (the I.G sanctionite) was as much, if not more, a part of the Sanctioned Psyker archteype as Eisenhorn or Patience Keys were.

What surprised me about the PotW system is how much of a step backward it was from the Curse of Tzeentch system from WFRP. They had a pretty good system right there and they butchered it.

Nullius said:

The sorts of Psykers we run into in Abnett's books are the kind that are actually suited to serving as field agents for the Inquisition.

Can you imagine an IG Sanctionite trying to go undercover? Preposterous. A gibbering creep with a brand on his forward. What's he going to say? "Oh nevermind, that's just a funny-looking birth mark, and I'm just mildly retarded."

It makes sense to me that the IG Sanctionite should be a much riskier type than the type I associate with service as an Acolyte of the Holy Inquisition. They're not very well trained or well equipped. Battlefield IG Psykers are - much like the rest of the IG - mainly cannon fodder. They're unleashing the full measure of their power in deadly combat with the enemy. They are blunt instruments of death and destruction. The people who send them into combat don't really care if they survive as long as they kill more enemies than friendlies.

But, that really isn't what you'd want in a highly skilled agent of the Throne. Inquisitorial Acolytes need to be subtle. They need to investigate, sometimes openly, but often without the suspects even knowing that they're under investigation. They need to be able to convincingly pose as people other than who they really are in order to infiltrate cults and other criminal organizations.

I guess every game is different, but although Acolytes certainly need to be capable of protecting themselves and taking decisive action when necessary, if you're done investigating and you're ready to apprehend or purge enemies, that's not something the Acolytes should just do all by themselves. That's when you requisition the local PDF or a locally stationed IG regiment, or call in Inquisitorial Stormtroopers, or, if it's something really big, your Inquisitor might request assistance from the Chamber Militant of their Ordo. The Acolytes might be involved in the action, but all in all, they're supposed to be scalpals, not power fists.

I've heard a lot of people say perils of the warp is bad but does anyone have any real suggestions on how to replace it? I would suggest the total restructure of it as it seems to be based around magic and less on science. You could instead of having all the arcane punishments involved already, substitute them with GM intervention much like the vendetta for nobility. This leaves room for multiple interpretations of how the warp works.

Call me a radical but I think the corruption system needs to be overhauled. Instead of having people "mutating" I think it would be better to have people change into different beings culminating in a new character. Their could be different lines of change that tell how much the warp is influencing a character in a certain part. The end result would be a chart graphing a persons drift. Once the character has crossed a threshold they essentially use the new outcome and recreate their character. I like this because it might show how a peaceful adept may become a bloodthirsty man after prolonged exposure to the warp.

This is all very confusing I know but I think this system might have great potential in showing the growth of characters and how they are influenced by their enviroments. It wouldn't apply for the warp also as a soldier who is the sole survivor of a battle may be open to rolling for "change". He might role inward meaning his fellowship decreases but his will increases. In the end you could replace insanity and corruption with this.

You could try and get the favored by the warp talent/trait. you do not get peril of the warp.

If you wanted a good physcher tip i would suggest finding powers that work well together. like another party i was in my physker and the party was facing a mafia on a hive world, an assasin came behind us my physcher casted weapon jinxs and spasm, the next turn i used deja'ju and shot at him with my hand cannon, so he kept trying to unjam his gun and kept failing and i stopped him from bringing out his power sword. but i do not think many telepathic powers work well together for combat. but my other physcer 71 will power and he was a witch picked up by ordo heritcus and the inqustier gave it to my inqustier as a present, but he is telepathy, so my party was facing a ork warboss and before combat started i physcic shriek the orks that were coming and the orc warboss siad hey weird boy come here! and i used distort vision so the orc warboss tried to claw me and bit off my head (the distort visions head) then i used fearful aura to make him run away in fear (i failed).

GorgaTheGamer said:

It halves the chance of perils occurring, it doesn't eliminate them. Still, going from a 1/4 to 1/8 chance to trigger a peril is helpful, even without getting to chose between phenomena when they come up.