Seems like the consensus is that they're pretty ok at 40 points. But Oicunn is a notable steal.

Can someone actaully tell us, what are the "acceptable" effeiciencies for ships?

Non-turret? Something around 88%?

Turret something around 78%?

There isn't really an acceptable. Justa raw number that suggests how well you need to fly a given ship.

Right but at some point its just overcosted. Ex. the Tie Advanced number, what was taht? 75%?

Generic X? ORS?

Pardon me, but I think there is a general % that most can get magic of a ship, then theres a % that exceptionally rabid fans can get out of their added experience, but at the end of the day, two equally good players at a championship scrutinized play level you simply cannot overcome a large enough deficit.

Here's the other thing too. Sometimes one of your ships might have a large deficit and you overcome it by doing magic with your other ships.

Say you took an old unfixed tie advanced and Soontir and Whisper and you're murderously good with Soontir and Whsiper. Sure maybe your 21 pt Adv did a great block once or twice, but ultimately, you blew up your opponent with good Soontir and Whisper control.

This doesn't count for overcoming the tie adv efficiency. It simply is overcoming it at 1/5 the point value of your squad.

---

so a single tie adv unfixed is 21pts x (statline eff).

Then you add soontirs pts x (statline) + Whisper (statline).

Lets assume that soontirs and whispers statline eff is 95. (Heck its probably closer to 100 due to ease of magic/overcome).

Then your total list:

[soontir] 35 x .95 + [Whisper] 44 x .95 + [adv] 21 x .75 = 90.8

vs BBBBZ

Assumed statline 93%

100x .93 = 93.

Your magic/overcome requirement is 2.2 points. Balanced and anyones game from a theoretical standpoint. (Phantom nerf helps too).

It doesn't have one. But in any game over 200 points it can become the most valuable ship on the field.

The game doesn't boil down to just math. It's about manuevering and placement, and what ships can manage it well.

The Advanced wasn't terrible due its jousting value. Darth Vader was still effective. It was ineffective because generally it didn't have any effective setups and was bad relative to other similarly costed options. If there were a tie Advanced with Kyle Katarns ability lots of people would have flown it. Jousting value applies less and less to named pilots, support ships, and highly upgradeable ships.

Seems like the consensus is that they're pretty ok at 40 points. But Oicunn is a notable steal.

Can someone actaully tell us, what are the "acceptable" effeiciencies for ships?

Non-turret? Something around 88%?

Turret something around 78%?

There isn't really an acceptable. Justa raw number that suggests how well you need to fly a given ship.

Right but at some point its just overcosted. Ex. the Tie Advanced number, what was taht? 75%?

Generic X? ORS?

Pardon me, but I think there is a general % that most can get magic of a ship, then theres a % that exceptionally rabid fans can get out of their added experience, but at the end of the day, two equally good players at a championship scrutinized play level you simply cannot overcome a large enough deficit.

Here's the other thing too. Sometimes one of your ships might have a large deficit and you overcome it by doing magic with your other ships.

Say you took an old unfixed tie advanced and Soontir and Whisper and you're murderously good with Soontir and Whsiper. Sure maybe your 21 pt Adv did a great block once or twice, but ultimately, you blew up your opponent with good Soontir and Whisper control.

This doesn't count for overcoming the tie adv efficiency. It simply is overcoming it at 1/5 the point value of your squad.

---

so a single tie adv unfixed is 21pts x (statline eff).

Then you add soontirs pts x (statline) + Whisper (statline).

Lets assume that soontirs and whispers statline eff is 95. (Heck its probably closer to 100 due to ease of magic/overcome).

Then your total list:

[soontir] 35 x .95 + [Whisper] 44 x .95 + [adv] 21 x .75 = 90.8

vs BBBBZ

Assumed statline 93%

100x .93 = 93.

Your magic/overcome requirement is 2.2 points. Balanced and anyones game from a theoretical standpoint. (Phantom nerf helps too).

Consider the jousting value of the Rebel Transport.

It doesn't have one. But in any game over 200 points it can become the most valuable ship on the field.

The game doesn't boil down to just math. It's about manuevering and placement, and what ships can manage it well.

The Advanced wasn't terrible due its jousting value. Darth Vader was still effective. It was ineffective because generally it didn't have any effective setups and was bad relative to other similarly costed options. If there were a tie Advanced with Kyle Katarns ability lots of people would have flown it. Jousting value applies less and less to named pilots, support ships, and highly upgradeable ships.

I love the way you think. thank you for bringing up that point.

However, from the 4 or so Epic games we've played, the Transport has been mostly useless. We simply target all the fighters and it ends up being nearly dead weight. Also the R1-2 has been really hard to overcome. Plus its always died in a single turn of combat near the end, so... eh.... its either really close, or wayyy too far to be of real use.

So honestly, I'm not running it anymore if I want to make a competitive Epic Squad.

--

As for unfixed Vader, he had an okay efficiency, but it was also quite quite low. But marginal.

It also doesn't help your point that all 3 other pilots were simply not worth their cost. That's not good for a ship. Especially many people loved Maarek Stele as a character and were severely disappointed.

Seems like the consensus is that they're pretty ok at 40 points. But Oicunn is a notable steal.

Can someone actaully tell us, what are the "acceptable" effeiciencies for ships?

Non-turret? Something around 88%?

Turret something around 78%?

There isn't really an acceptable. Justa raw number that suggests how well you need to fly a given ship.

Right but at some point its just overcosted. Ex. the Tie Advanced number, what was taht? 75%?

Generic X? ORS?

Pardon me, but I think there is a general % that most can get magic of a ship, then theres a % that exceptionally rabid fans can get out of their added experience, but at the end of the day, two equally good players at a championship scrutinized play level you simply cannot overcome a large enough deficit.

Here's the other thing too. Sometimes one of your ships might have a large deficit and you overcome it by doing magic with your other ships.

Say you took an old unfixed tie advanced and Soontir and Whisper and you're murderously good with Soontir and Whsiper. Sure maybe your 21 pt Adv did a great block once or twice, but ultimately, you blew up your opponent with good Soontir and Whisper control.

This doesn't count for overcoming the tie adv efficiency. It simply is overcoming it at 1/5 the point value of your squad.

---

so a single tie adv unfixed is 21pts x (statline eff).

Then you add soontirs pts x (statline) + Whisper (statline).

Lets assume that soontirs and whispers statline eff is 95. (Heck its probably closer to 100 due to ease of magic/overcome).

Then your total list:

[soontir] 35 x .95 + [Whisper] 44 x .95 + [adv] 21 x .75 = 90.8

vs BBBBZ

Assumed statline 93%

100x .93 = 93.

Your magic/overcome requirement is 2.2 points. Balanced and anyones game from a theoretical standpoint. (Phantom nerf helps too).

Consider the jousting value of the Rebel Transport.

It doesn't have one. But in any game over 200 points it can become the most valuable ship on the field.

The game doesn't boil down to just math. It's about manuevering and placement, and what ships can manage it well.

The Advanced wasn't terrible due its jousting value. Darth Vader was still effective. It was ineffective because generally it didn't have any effective setups and was bad relative to other similarly costed options. If there were a tie Advanced with Kyle Katarns ability lots of people would have flown it. Jousting value applies less and less to named pilots, support ships, and highly upgradeable ships.

I love the way you think. thank you for bringing up that point.

However, from the 4 or so Epic games we've played, the Transport has been mostly useless. We simply target all the fighters and it ends up being nearly dead weight. Also the R1-2 has been really hard to overcome. Plus its always died in a single turn of combat near the end, so... eh.... its either really close, or wayyy too far to be of real use.

So honestly, I'm not running it anymore if I want to make a competitive Epic Squad.

--

As for unfixed Vader, he had an okay efficiency, but it was also quite quite low. But marginal.

It also doesn't help your point that all 3 other pilots were simply not worth their cost. That's not good for a ship. Especially many people loved Maarek Stele as a character and were severely disappointed.

Bright Hope, Two Comms Boosters, and Chewbacca. Then aim for the opponents fleet and force them to fly badly while passing focuses and clearing stress everywhere.

What it comes down to is that individual ship efficiency means far far less than squad composition and flying it effectively.

Also, jousting efficiency works off of averages that do not apply over the course of every game. If you look at a Tie Fighter's Jousting value adjusted for facing cloaked Phantoms or Aggressors(or other high agility lists) they'll be much lower than if you adjust them for facing low agility lists. Meanwhile Phantoms and Fat Chewie do much better against smaller lists with higher agility pilots. There's just a lot of grey area. Action bars are pretty key as well.

Which means a squad of original Advanced's facing a Z95 swarm can do phenomanlly, while against anything with 3 agility they're garbage.

A pair of Patrols does look better than a single Patrol. (This is only assuming you can't for some reason use Oicunn, cuz hes just too much better at 2 points.).

Hmm... Oicunn, Patrol, and Howlrunner = 100.

The 2Patrol or Oicunn with Howl has been discussed. Not that great. You're probably better off taking 36 points as tie fighters. AND Howl AND a cheap Deci.

--

OH GREAKLSGDJAJSDMGLAKSD I didn't realize you could take 2 Comms Boosters!!!! ksdjfnaklsdfnmlaksdmfs. I tried Toryn Farr. She... was ok. Her problem was mostly range 1 2. The Bright Hope title makes sense for your build. Though, I might go with the 4pt title and do more recovering... hmm.

--

My talk about that math is just an estimate, as this is the limit of my math. Yes I know the "counter" cases very well, but still, in general it gives you an idea. A ballpark estimate.

A pair of Patrols does look better than a single Patrol. (This is only assuming you can't for some reason use Oicunn, cuz hes just too much better at 2 points.).

Hmm... Oicunn, Patrol, and Howlrunner = 100.

Until howlrunner goes boom anyway...

Turret ships are always fairly low efficiency. Yet they clearly work. You just need to make sure you're not getting shot frequently.(not terribly hard to do with a turret.)

At 40 points he's fine really, unless you fly him directly into enemy firing arcs.

I prefer to use mine as a flanker, which works rather well against auto-thrusters.

The dial is not fantastic, but it is sweet not having any reds on there.

That depends on the turret. Admiral has an efficiency around 80%, provided you are willing to bid to PS8.

I'll update my House Rules soon with what makes sense for the Patrol Leader and Kenkirk.

For a ship that is only 80% efficient, it sure is popular. Maybe you should revisit that benchmark.

You're misunderstanding what that efficiency means. It's almost purely offense/defense vs points. Turrets get away with a lot of inefficiency because they can manage several turns of modified shots against stressed ships or out of arc ships.

A non turreted ship with 80% efficiency is miserable because they have a harder time keeping things in arc. A turreted ship with 80% is fantastic.

So it's inefficient but it gets away with it because it can efficiently take modified shots or out of arc shots on ships? All of the numbers from the wave 5 store tourneys indicate the Decimator was one of the most efficient ships around. Putting it at 80% efficiency and then saying they get away with being inefficient seems contradictory.

Does the Transport get 1 or 2 actions? Whats the rule again?

Turret ships are always fairly low efficiency. Yet they clearly work. You just need to make sure you're not getting shot frequently.(not terribly hard to do with a turret.)

At 40 points he's fine really, unless you fly him directly into enemy firing arcs.

I prefer to use mine as a flanker, which works rather well against auto-thrusters.

The dial is not fantastic, but it is sweet not having any reds on there.

That depends on the turret. Admiral has an efficiency around 80%, provided you are willing to bid to PS8.

I'll update my House Rules soon with what makes sense for the Patrol Leader and Kenkirk.

For a ship that is only 80% efficient, it sure is popular. Maybe you should revisit that benchmark.

You're misunderstanding what that efficiency means. It's almost purely offense/defense vs points. Turrets get away with a lot of inefficiency because they can manage several turns of modified shots against stressed ships or out of arc ships.

A non turreted ship with 80% efficiency is miserable because they have a harder time keeping things in arc. A turreted ship with 80% is fantastic.

So it's inefficient but it gets away with it because it can efficiently take modified shots or out of arc shots on ships? All of the numbers from the wave 5 store tourneys indicate the Decimator was one of the most efficient ships around. Putting it at 80% efficiency and then saying they get away with being inefficient seems contradictory.

Turret ships do crap damage for their cost.

3 attack for 42 points? I can run two rookie X-wings have, twice the attack and about the same durability.

40 points for a Decimator.

3 Academy Tie fighters do more damage and take more shots to kill.

And the efficiency is built around Tie Fighters.

Just... Go read about the math we're talking about. Understand what it's showing before you bash it.

And the Transport gets 1 action. But it can use all its energy every turn. Upgrades with the Energy Header are not actions.

And yeah. Dual Comms Boosters is just amazing. Seriously ridiculous.

I like Bright Hope. The added Defense is great along with the bonhs energy so you always have a full shield recharge worth in case of emergencies.

Turret ships are always fairly low efficiency. Yet they clearly work. You just need to make sure you're not getting shot frequently.(not terribly hard to do with a turret.)

At 40 points he's fine really, unless you fly him directly into enemy firing arcs.

I prefer to use mine as a flanker, which works rather well against auto-thrusters.

The dial is not fantastic, but it is sweet not having any reds on there.

That depends on the turret. Admiral has an efficiency around 80%, provided you are willing to bid to PS8.

I'll update my House Rules soon with what makes sense for the Patrol Leader and Kenkirk.

For a ship that is only 80% efficient, it sure is popular. Maybe you should revisit that benchmark.

You're misunderstanding what that efficiency means. It's almost purely offense/defense vs points. Turrets get away with a lot of inefficiency because they can manage several turns of modified shots against stressed ships or out of arc ships.

A non turreted ship with 80% efficiency is miserable because they have a harder time keeping things in arc. A turreted ship with 80% is fantastic.

So it's inefficient but it gets away with it because it can efficiently take modified shots or out of arc shots on ships? All of the numbers from the wave 5 store tourneys indicate the Decimator was one of the most efficient ships around. Putting it at 80% efficiency and then saying they get away with being inefficient seems contradictory.

The 80% number refers to the raw stat line vs cost efficiency, not the overall ship efficiency considering dial, turret, etc etc etc.

Just... Go read about the math we're talking about. Understand what it's showing before you bash it.

Um, yeah, what he said.

Ugh, no Agreed. Comms Boosters are like GOLD. amazingly worth their 4 points each.

Sadly, when I total up my Transport I'm getting: 30 + 4 + 4+ 6 + 3 = 52. Wow. That is... like 4 Zs + R2D2. That's a lot of dice. =/

I might drop Toryn Farr, but I love the synergy. Caarlist Rieekan for emergency stupid PS 9s.

Ugh, no Agreed. Comms Boosters are like GOLD. amazingly worth their 4 points each.

Sadly, when I total up my Transport I'm getting: 30 + 4 + 4+ 6 + 3 = 52. Wow. That is... like 4 Zs + R2D2. That's a lot of dice. =/

I might drop Toryn Farr, but I love the synergy. Caarlist Rieekan for emergency stupid PS 9s.

And what the Transport loses in dice it makes up for in its ability to demolish formations, draw fire, and support other ships. It needs to be run as a battering ram as well. Play aggressively with it. Cut off fire. Force them to bank off or be crushed. Don't leave it in the back. Don't blitz past it. I mean figure, while it lacks attack dice, it costs about the same as a falcon, and contributes about as much damage taken/dealt(via passing focuses). But it does so in a way that disrupts your opponent significantly more.

I think we're getting off topic.

Uhh, I must have forgotten something. Anyway. It would be fun to play agianst your Epic lists Aminar.

Patrol leader.... anyone still? haha.

Turret ships are always fairly low efficiency. Yin.et they clearly work. You just need to make sure you're not getting shot frequently.(not terribly hard to do with a turret.)

At 40 points he's fine really, unless you fly him directly into enemy firing arcs.

I prefer to use mine as a flanker, which works rather well against auto-thrusters.

The dial is not fantastic, but it is sweet not having any reds on there.

That depends on the turret. Admiral has an efficiency around 80%, provided you are willing to bid to PS8.

I'll update my House Rules soon with what makes sense for the Patrol Leader and Kenkirk.

For a ship that is only 80% efficient, it sure is popular. Maybe you should revisit that benchmark.

It's not really that the Patrol Leader is bad, it's that for a mere 2 points more you get Oicunn. If Oicunn coated more or didn't have an EPT I think you'd see more Patrol Leaders.

Seems like the consensus is that they're pretty ok at 40 points. But Oicunn is a notable steal.

Can someone actaully tell us, what are the "acceptable" effeiciencies for ships?

Non-turret? Something around 88%?

Turret something around 78%?

There isn't really an acceptable. Justa raw number that suggests how well you need to fly a given ship.

Right but at some point its just overcosted. Ex. the Tie Advanced number, what was taht? 75%?

Generic X? ORS?

Pardon me, but I think there is a general % that most can get magic of a ship, then theres a % that exceptionally rabid fans can get out of their added experience, but at the end of the day, two equally good players at a championship scrutinized play level you simply cannot overcome a large enough deficit.

Here's the other thing too. Sometimes one of your ships might have a large deficit and you overcome it by doing magic with your other ships.

Say you took an old unfixed tie advanced and Soontir and Whisper and you're murderously good with Soontir and Whsiper. Sure maybe your 21 pt Adv did a great block once or twice, but ultimately, you blew up your opponent with good Soontir and Whisper control.

This doesn't count for overcoming the tie adv efficiency. It simply is overcoming it at 1/5 the point value of your squad.

---

so a single tie adv unfixed is 21pts x (statline eff).

Then you add soontirs pts x (statline) + Whisper (statline).

Lets assume that soontirs and whispers statline eff is 95. (Heck its probably closer to 100 due to ease of magic/overcome).

Then your total list:

[soontir] 35 x .95 + [Whisper] 44 x .95 + [adv] 21 x .75 = 90.8

vs BBBBZ

Assumed statline 93%

100x .93 = 93.

Your magic/overcome requirement is 2.2 points. Balanced and anyones game from a theoretical standpoint. (Phantom nerf helps too).

Consider the jousting value of the Rebel Transport.

It doesn't have one. But in any game over 200 points it can become the most valuable ship on the field.

The game doesn't boil down to just math. It's about manuevering and placement, and what ships can manage it well.

The Advanced wasn't terrible due its jousting value. Darth Vader was still effective. It was ineffective because generally it didn't have any effective setups and was bad relative to other similarly costed options. If there were a tie Advanced with Kyle Katarns ability lots of people would have flown it. Jousting value applies less and less to named pilots, support ships, and highly upgradeable ships.

I love the way you think. thank you for bringing up that point.

However, from the 4 or so Epic games we've played, the Transport has been mostly useless. We simply target all the fighters and it ends up being nearly dead weight. Also the R1-2 has been really hard to overcome. Plus its always died in a single turn of combat near the end, so... eh.... its either really close, or wayyy too far to be of real use.

So honestly, I'm not running it anymore if I want to make a competitive Epic Squad.

--

As for unfixed Vader, he had an okay efficiency, but it was also quite quite low. But marginal.

It also doesn't help your point that all 3 other pilots were simply not worth their cost. That's not good for a ship. Especially many people loved Maarek Stele as a character and were severely disappointed.

Really? Every time I run the Transport it basically wins the game. I'm guessing people run it differently than I do or something.

Bright Hope, Two Comms Boosters, and Chewbacca. Then aim for the opponents fleet and force them to fly badly while passing focuses and clearing stress everywhere.

What it comes down to is that individual ship efficiency means far far less than squad composition and flying it effectively.

Also, jousting efficiency works off of averages that do not apply over the course of every game. If you look at a Tie Fighter's Jousting value adjusted for facing cloaked Phantoms or Aggressors(or other high agility lists) they'll be much lower than if you adjust them for facing low agility lists. Meanwhile Phantoms and Fat Chewie do much better against smaller lists with higher agility pilots. There's just a lot of grey area. Action bars are pretty key as well.

Which means a squad of original Advanced's facing a Z95 swarm can do phenomanlly, while against anything with 3 agility they're garbage.

Finally i think we should not only consider jousting values, but rather the efficiency per point in competitive play. Because that gives us a real view of how a ship performs in the long run...

Turret ships are always fairly low efficiency. Yet they clearly work. You just need to make sure you're not getting shot frequently.(not terribly hard to do with a turret.)

At 40 points he's fine really, unless you fly him directly into enemy firing arcs.

I prefer to use mine as a flanker, which works rather well against auto-thrusters.

The dial is not fantastic, but it is sweet not having any reds on there.

That depends on the turret. Admiral has an efficiency around 80%, provided you are willing to bid to PS8.

I'll update my House Rules soon with what makes sense for the Patrol Leader and Kenkirk.

For a ship that is only 80% efficient, it sure is popular. Maybe you should revisit that benchmark.

You're misunderstanding what that efficiency means. It's almost purely offense/defense vs points. Turrets get away with a lot of inefficiency because they can manage several turns of modified shots against stressed ships or out of arc ships.

A non turreted ship with 80% efficiency is miserable because they have a harder time keeping things in arc. A turreted ship with 80% is fantastic.

So it's inefficient but it gets away with it because it can efficiently take modified shots or out of arc shots on ships? All of the numbers from the wave 5 store tourneys indicate the Decimator was one of the most efficient ships around. Putting it at 80% efficiency and then saying they get away with being inefficient seems contradictory.

The 80% number refers to the raw stat line vs cost efficiency, not the overall ship efficiency considering dial, turret, etc etc etc.

Just... Go read about the math we're talking about. Understand what it's showing before you bash it.

Um, yeah, what he said.

I guess what I am saying is there doesn't seem to be much value in your efficiency numbers given how efficient they actually are.

Don't be so fast to assume that I didn't read your work or understand it, I did and I do.

It's not really that the Patrol Leader is bad, it's that for a mere 2 points more you get Oicunn. If Oicunn coated more or didn't have an EPT I think you'd see more Patrol Leaders.

That's pretty much how I feel, too.

If there was a two-point upgrade card called "Captain Oicunn" that magically didn't take up any existing upgrade spot, but then it gave you access to an Elite Pilot Talent, the ability to auto-damage any ship you move into, and +1 PS, that'd be pretty crazy-good, right?

That's the Patrol Leader situation. It's so cheap to get so much, it's hard not to at least go to Oicunn (and often past him, higher up the chain of command), instead.

The problem with Oicunn is that for another measly 2 points you get Kenkirk.... and guess what the problem with Kenkirk is?

The problem with Oicunn is that for another measly 2 points you get Kenkirk.... and guess what the problem with Kenkirk is?

Just get over the fact he stole that green skinned chick from you already!

I guess what I am saying is there doesn't seem to be much value in your efficiency numbers given how efficient they actually are.

Don't be so fast to assume that I didn't read your work or understand it, I did and I do.

I'm not sure how to put this gently... you are very clearly articulating that you don't know what you don't know. There's a fundamental relationship between stat line cost efficiency and overall ship value, the details of which are non-trivial and even the developers haven't totally "gotten" yet after 6+ waves, so it's perfectly acceptable to not understand it all. But self-proclaiming that you do know how it all works, while simultaneously dismissing it out of hand, is at a minimum disingenuous given it's track record.

Person A: "Hey look! I invented a crystal ball that can predict the future!"

Person B: "Oh, I see how that works. Well, I don't really think it is useful though. That knob there looks broken."

Person A: "Well lets see. Lets test it out." (Makes 121 predictions with it).

Time passes: all 121 predictions come true.

Person A: "Nifty. I think I'll keep using it."

Person B: "Eh. I still think it's broken and not very useful."

The 121 predictions in this case are the 121 individual pilots that have been released. Several of these pilots have been analyzed multiple ways, so the total number of particular predictions is actually even higher.

It's not really that the Patrol Leader is bad, it's that for a mere 2 points more you get Oicunn. If Oicunn coated more or didn't have an EPT I think you'd see more Patrol Leaders.

That's pretty much how I feel, too.

If there was a two-point upgrade card called "Captain Oicunn" that magically didn't take up any existing upgrade spot, but then it gave you access to an Elite Pilot Talent, the ability to auto-damage any ship you move into, and +1 PS, that'd be pretty crazy-good, right?

That's the Patrol Leader situation. It's so cheap to get so much, it's hard not to at least go to Oicunn (and often past him, higher up the chain of command), instead.

The Patrol leader really isn't that great even by itself though. A statline efficiency of 65% is very low even for a turreted ship. It's not as bad as the Outer Rim Smuggler's 60%, but it is nowhere near the efficiency of RAC or Han Solo who are just a hair under 80% (at their PS). It's only real use is a 43 point Doom Boat with Vader.

So Oicunn is certainly an auto-upgrade over the Patrol Leader (unless you already have Oicunn in your squad like the UK Regionals winner this last Saturday). I don't think Kenkirk is auto-buy over Oicunn, because Oicunn has a disruptive ability that can't be duplicated by Kenkirk's brute-force increase in jousting efficiency.

The problem with Oicunn is that for another measly 2 points you get Kenkirk.... and guess what the problem with Kenkirk is?

RAC is outright more cost effective than Kenkirk (provided you're willing to bid from PS6 to PS8), making RAC a no-brainer.

The problem with Oicunn is that for another measly 2 points you get Kenkirk.... and guess what the problem with Kenkirk is?

Just get over the fact he stole that green skinned chick from you already!

Not at all, that was space marine captain Kirkus of the Imperial fists.

There may well be jokes about Adepta Sororitas if I continue down this line - but suffice to say, just like the entire convent - that ones been done.

I run Patrol Leader with Gunner and Vader, and I've always felt it justifed its cost at 48 points.

All turreted ships are probably overcosted if you run them naked, upgrades are mandatory for these ships.

Gunner on DoomDeci? I'd be a little afraid of losing so much. And i think it would suck vs BBBBZ and other conventional lists that arent phantom or int heavy.