But we're not talking about percentages, or some abstract ideal, we're talking about the practical cost of fielding an actual list. It's not even an analogy, it's a comparison of what you can reasonably expect to spend on various miniatures games.

Sure. So if I want to buy an army in 40K I need a rulebook, codex and the models. If I want to run a faction in X Wing I need multiple copies of every model, regardless of whether I intend to use those models or not.

One is fair. I'm required to buy what I intend to use. The other is not.

I'm actually amazed that after all this time you still haven't learned to watch your language. Want want want want want, you want this, you want that.

You keep repeating this like you think it's important. Protip, it's not.

Yeah it's more expensive to get started in 40K or Warmachine, but it's even more expensive to stay up to date with the rules in X Wing.

As absurd as that is, I'll humor you for a second. Show me how much money it would cost for a rule book, every codex, and enough models to field an 1850 point list for every faction, and then compare that to the cost of four of every ship currently released for X-Wing. I'm serious, do the math and present your evidence, then make that assertion again.

Here's one right back at you. For my Vampire Counts army I have more than 800 models. Do the math for how much it would cost to buy 800 ships for X Wing and get back to me.

And the kicker? I can apply the rules for my 800 models any number of times. I don't need to buy a new model each time I want to add a rule to a different model.

Bundling valuable upgrade cards into expensive ship 'expansion packs' purely as a way to drive sales is a **** move. It is totally unreasonable to expect a consumer to buy a Ferrari so they can get a spare wheel for their Ford.

If fifteen dollars is expensive to you, you may want to consider a new line of work. You want a real analogy? It is totally unreasonable for you to expect a Ferrari for the price of your Ford. You may want the former, but wanting something doesn't make you entitled to it.

I don't want a Ferrari. I have no interest in a Ferrari. I want a new wheel for my Ford. Why would anyone think it's reasonable to pay the full price of a whole other car, just for the spare wheel for my Ford?

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Bundling upgrade cards into expensive models just to drive sales is a **** move. That's not me being 'entitled', that's just a statement of fact.

GAME REQUIRES YOU HAVE PIECES YOU INTEND TO PLAY WITH, FILM AT 11.

Rules aren't pieces. Why should I need multiple copies of the rules? To draw another 40K analogy, that'd be the same as requiring a separate copy of the codex for each unit in my army. And I can only get those codexes by buying other models, that aren't even in my army.

EDIT: Anyway, I'm done here. I have no intention of playing in official FFG tournaments so It's all just a discussion for the sake of it. Feel free to have the last word, I get the feeling that will be important to some of you.

Sure. So if I want to buy an army in 40K I need a rulebook, codex and the models. If I want to run a faction in X Wing I need multiple copies of every model, regardless of whether I intend to use those models or not.

One is fair. I'm required to buy what I intend to use. The other is not.

Both are fair. One might cost you two hundred dollars, the other will cost you in the thousands.

You keep repeating this like you think it's important. Protip, it's not.

I thought we were having a serious conversation for a second there. My mistake.

Suffice it to say, the difference between wants and needs, which you seem wholly unable to comprehend, is precisely what makes this an issue of entitlement. I'd say that's pretty central to the conversation as a whole, and the reason why you're finding disagreement from every other level-headed user here.

Here's one right back at you. For my Vampire Counts army I have more than 800 models. Do the math for how much it would cost to buy 800 ships for X Wing and get back to me.

And the kicker? I can apply the rules for my 800 models any number of times. I don't need to buy a new model each time I want to add a rule to a different model.

You didn't answer my question. Strange that you could make such a bold claim in the first place, and then shy away from answering a legitimate question when pressed for evidence.

I don't want a Ferrari. I have no interest in a Ferrari. I want a new wheel for my Ford. Why would anyone think it's reasonable to pay the full price of a whole other car, just for the spare wheel for my Ford?

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Bundling upgrade cards into expensive models just to drive sales is a **** move. That's not me being 'entitled', that's just a statement of fact.

You want a very specific list, that uses very specific upgrade cards, for what I can only imagine to be a very specific purpose: winning. Your list already has a full set of wheels, but you're not happy with its performance. The upgrade cards in this analogy aren't a spare tire, they're a whole new engine, one that's going to carry you to the finish line faster than the other guy. And for some reason you expect to have that handed to you, because... why? Because you want it? Because you disagree with FFG's business model? Because something should be a different way than it is? It's their right to charge a fair price for a product, and you don't have to buy it. But you want it, you perceive a right to have it without paying that fair price, and that irks you. That's the very definition of entitlement. Can you explain to me why you can't just play a list without those upgrades?

EDIT: Anyway, I'm done here. I have no intention of playing in official FFG tournaments so It's all just a discussion for the sake of it. Feel free to have the last word, I get the feeling that will be important to some of you.

Ah, my very favorite argumentative cop-out.

Rules aren't pieces. Why should I need multiple copies of the rules? To draw another 40K analogy, that'd be the same as requiring a separate copy of the codex for each unit in my army. And I can only get those codexes by buying other models, that aren't even in my army.

EDIT: Anyway, I'm done here. I have no intention of playing in official FFG tournaments so It's all just a discussion for the sake of it. Feel free to have the last word, I get the feeling that will be important to some of you.

Gotta love the old "poke, poke, poke, poke, poke poke poke, POKE POKE POKE, but anyways I don't really care, have a nice thread" maneuver.

But we're not talking about percentages, or some abstract ideal, we're talking about the practical cost of fielding an actual list. It's not even an analogy, it's a comparison of what you can reasonably expect to spend on various miniatures games.

Sure. So if I want to buy an army in 40K I need a rulebook, codex and the models. If I want to run a faction in X Wing I need multiple copies of every model, regardless of whether I intend to use those models or not.

One is fair. I'm required to buy what I intend to use. The other is not.

Uhh... While part of this is GW being, well, GW*, you're generally going bits hunting, converting, and/or magnetizing to get everything you need.

And you don't need every card in the game to run a faction. You need every card in the game if you want to be able to run every possible list (The equivilent in 40k would be complaining you need to buy multiples of every unit to field all the formations in a codex). Finding the ideal list for your play style while keeping the price low is something of an exercise in deduction based on what you enjoy in other games, as well as consulting people who know more, but that's true of every game.

*To be fair to them, though, some units are so option heavy that fitting all the options in one box is impractical- The Sternguard box would be enormous if it came with 2 of each special weapon** and 5 of each combi-weapon in addition to everything else that's already in the box (That's 26 additional weapons, for those who are wondering)

Rules aren't pieces. Why should I need multiple copies of the rules?

I don't like to resort to meme's, but it seems appropriate in this case.

EDIT: Anyway, I'm done here. I have no intention of playing in official FFG tournaments so It's all just a discussion for the sake of it. Feel free to have the last word, I get the feeling that will be important to some of you.

Ah, my very favorite argumentative cop-out.

I applaud the reference, but it makes me wonder - will s/he return to kill us all with epic walking-on-water 12-gauge usage??

But see you don't need these "rules" or "pieces" to play for fun. Now if you want to play for a premier event, you gotta have all the stuff. Because well that's the way it is. It's honestly a small price to pay to play with the rest of us who play this game on a competitive stage.

If you don't like it...i hear vassel is neat.

But see you don't need these "rules" or "pieces" to play for fun. Now if you want to play for a premier event, you gotta have all the stuff. Because well that's the way it is.

I acknowlege that there would be some things to figure out, but anyone claiming that confusion and uncertainty would be a serious obstacle is either not taking a second to come up with one of the numerous solutions that are available or is being disengenous. Other than that, the is the mixed faction dial debate all over again (just with people collapsing their arguing and posting memes). Just like now, players were makimg outrageous claims that confusion would halt games (since FFG changed that rule to the player's benefit, I am yet to see a thread complaining of the confusion that so many were adamant would result).

If people acknowledge that the game can exist without an administrative rule, then the rule might be changed. If people have to modify what they bring to a game, like a list of numbered ships and what upgrades each ship has, then that might be worth the added freedom that it provides to players.

In my youth ime and friends play 40K with downloaded rules and Cofee mugs in place of dreadnaughts, and random minis. We had lots of fun, but it was casual as hell. Now I play X-wing in tourneys, and even if I sometimes wish I had 4 stressbots or C3PO, it just makes making list of stuff I have or can borrow from my friends much more interesting.

You own the cards that you purchase from FFG - you did not purchase a license. Legally, I can make as many copies of my advanced sensors card as I want. So, if breaking the law is your concern, are you fine with people using duplicates of cards that they own?

Seeing that Lucafilm owns the rights and that FFG are operating under a license actually creates a bit of a quandry for you. Strictly speaking you may not even play the game without written approval from Lucasfilm. So your claim of being able to make unlimited copies may be true in a physical sense, if Lucasfilm decided to pursue you then you could be in a world of financial hurt.

So, assuming that FFG are operating under the license agreement, part of that agreement, no doubt, protects the financial interests of Lucasfilm. A royalty could be paid per image used. FFG have paid for the right to print the image, your copies don not reimburse the original rights holder and for that simple reason FFG could never sanction the use of a proxy. Borrowing a card, or finding one on the floor has no impact as the royalty would have been paid.

Now, if you have an original card x, there should be no reason why you couldn't say these three ships all have a card x in them. Apart from creating an admin nightmare for any opponent, yourself or TO. Keeping things simpler actually allows for more fun.

Ok, lets just imagine you can print and use any upgrade freely. Guess the number of Fat Hans in square meter comes next tourney? Print your upgrade would lead to rampart netdecking in its worst form. I have nothing against loosing againts a guys, who paid for his Tantive to get one shiny robot. I have everything agains everyone using that shiny robot because its popular this month.

Now, if you have an original card x, there should be no reason why you couldn't say these three ships all have a card x in them. Apart from creating an admin nightmare for any opponent, yourself or TO. Keeping things simpler actually allows for more fun.

Regarding the "administrative nightmare," explain to me what a sheet of paper, which all events that I have been to require, that takes the form of:

No. 22 - Royal Guard Pilot - xx points

-Push the Limit - x points

-Autothrusters - x points

No. 35 - Royal Guard Pilot - xx points

-Opportunist - x points

-Autothrusters - x points

-Royal Guard TIE - x points

-Hull Upgrade - x points

No. 18 - Omnicron Group Pilot - xx points

-Darth Vader - x points

-Hull Upgrade - x points

would cause that administrative nightmare? FFG already supplied numbered tokens for identifying ships and a single original copy of hull upgrade or autothrusters could be supplied (or viewed using the complex wonders of a Google search) to view the rules of any selected upgrade.

I fail to see what the difficulty would be, so maybe I am missimg something or the players in my area are just so far above the average mental capabilities of the gemeral population that I am looking right over the problem. That might sound sarcastic (and it is), but I am being sincere - explain the actual negative consequence that would result to me.

I have nothing against loosing againts a guys, who paid for his Tantive to get one shiny robot. I have everything agains everyone using that shiny robot because its popular this month.

But why? If the reason that you support being required to have the cards rather than the rules that are on them is because FFG says so, should 'because' be a good enough reason when the rule restricts players?

Yes. If a uniform and consistent approach to the rules wasn't important, we could start taking homebrewed cards and house rules to any competitive event. Besides, it's not "restrictive," it's informative. The only people who seem to be really put out by this must be, well, broke. Where do you work?

That is an outrageous. So you are willing to accept the identical experience in one instance but not another? And the reason for that is because one opposing player paid to make you suffer that experience and the other did not? How about if people could buy one Super Stress Tokens from FFG for $5000 each and, in any competitive event, could assign them at will to any ship? Would that be fine just because they paid for it? Or, would the game be better (if eliminating the SSTs is not an option, if everyone could have one?

His explanation, which you conveniently ignored, had context. He's not arbitrarily against people using certain upgrades because they didn't pay for them, he's against net-deckers.

@WonderWAAAGH

Ha. This has nothing to do with whether people can afford the cards. We are discussing whether the rule is worth having. Surely people could afford extra S&V sets for matching dials, but they should not have to buy more when what they have is perfectly sufficient. FFG agreed.

Where do you work? Since you want people to share, why shouldn't you start?

Also, this thread is not about netdeckers. He is participating in a discussion, so he should expect his arguments to, conveniently, be taken in the context of that discussion.

Dearest Legal Eagles: No, there is no legal circumstance where you can print off a copy of a card so that you can play with it. Please refrain from giving legal advice because 1) Their native country might be different than yours. 2) You are not a copyright or patent lawyer.

Thanks in advance!

That is an outrageous. So you are willing to accept the identical experience in one instance but not another? And the reason for that is because one opposing player paid to make you suffer that experience and the other did not? How about if people could buy one Super Stress Tokens from FFG for $5000 each and, in any competitive event, could assign them at will to any ship? Would that be fine just because they paid for it? Or, would the game be better (if eliminating the SSTs is not an option, if everyone could have one?

FFG isn't going to make a $5000 super stress token and no it's not the same experience if you don't have the cards. For starters the cards are more than just The Rules required to play a thing. And even if they were, if so much as one person followed the the requirement to have all the cards it would change the experience because then you'd have at least one person who limited themselves to what they owned.

A key in the dial statement is "matching" dials. All FFG rules do is allow you to use the dial FFG already supplied with the model. It's still an official game piece produced by FFG. Even with that you still need to supply cards and base tiles to use those ships in your chosen faction.

It is fairly easy to manipulate an e-copy of an upgrade card to give an unfair advantage. The easiest way to stop cheating at official events is not "self-policing" by the players or TOs, but by removing the ability to cheat in certain ways. In this case, they remove the possibility (or at least minimize it as best as they can) by requiring only official cards and no proxies. Keeps the ground as level as possible for all players.

That is a different issue yet again from what is being discussed here. All I will say on it is that while I sympathise, there's nothing that can be done about it. If I could go back in time and get onto the original design team for X-wing, I would make the upgrade system work in a more user friendly manner. But that ship has sailed, and the game now is what it is. Either abide by it or don't play at a tournament level. Simple as that.

I have absolutely not intention of playing in a FFG tournament. I know it seems odd to be posting in a thread specifically dealing with FFG tournaments, but the issue of rules, proxy cards and lists is kind of close to my heart at the moment.

As for FFG not giving you a way to buy the cards: they have repeatedly said that they cannot make a profit from card packs. And that truly is the beginning and end of the discussion.

If that's what they think, then I can only suggest they haven't done their homework.

I would suggest that they have likely done more homework than you on the subject. It amazes me how many more "experts" are posting on FFGs forum boards than are actually working for FFG.

FFG's business model in X-wing relies on you buying new ships to make your old ones better*, and then buying more ships to make those new ships better. Sort of a benign version of the vicious cycle (since unless you've become a genuine X-wing addict*, no one is being harmed by the cycle, sort of like this example).

So, the problem isn't one of the cards not being profitable in and of itself, but that the slim profit margin on cards (which generally make their money via volume, if I understand correctly) wouldn't justify the lost revenue due to fewer ships sold. So while the cards might make enough money to pay for their physical production, they probably wouldn't make enough to cover development costs, liscence costs, and artwork expenses.

*At least, that's what I think the model is here. I'm not privy to any information direct from FFG themselves, so it's entirely possible I'm completely wrong, here.

**Given the linear reward schedule of buying x-wing products due to non-randomized contents, compared to the nonlinear reward schedule of opening Magic: The Gathering packs, I don't think addiction to buying X-wing product is a serious concern, for the record. Although that's just Psych 101 talking- Maybe someone with a psych background can expand on that or correct me if I'm wrong

You'd think somebody familiar with 40k would have more perspective. How many X-Wing ships could you buy for the combined price of a Land Raider and Rhino?

It's only an example. One could just as easily look to Warmachine or Dystopian Wars, both games that release in waves and use cards, but also provide rules in books that are available to purchase. The entire concept of needing to buy model X so that I can add an upgrade to model Y is very strange.

I hate having to buy extremely overpriced books that get outdated in a matter of months.

Much better to buy a model (which will never get outdated) and get all the rules with it. Much better system IMO.