Anyone who thinks that they can fully participate in any miniatures based game for little to no investment in money, and often time, is deluding themselves. To play most games competitively would cost you much more than X-Wing, in both time and money.

And we haven't even begun to factor in the value of the hobbyist aspect. I've dropped $200 on a 35 point CoC list so far. Not that bad, right? I also just commissioned a friend of mine to assemble and paint it all for me, and that's going to run me another $1,000, because that's what our respective time, talents, and energy levels are worth to each other.

Some kind and patient soul has done a bit of the relevant accounting work for 40k here. Note that your average 1000 point army costs ~$300-$450 from GW; it'll be a bit less if you're not paying MSRP, but 1000 points is still only half an army. And that's not even taking into account FW models. You think $20 is steep for a pair of Autothrusters? Try picking up Sevrin Loth or a Sicaran.

That list is really out of date in some places. That Necron example is 4 years out of date. Which makes me suspect he hasn't kept up with all the price hikes either.

EDIT: The actual 500 and 1000 point lists for Necrons comes to 134.95 and 250.95, although in that case it's at least in part because you need more models. That old Necron list would only come to 750 points these days.

Some kind and patient soul has done a bit of the relevant accounting work for 40k here. Note that your average 1000 point army costs ~$300-$450 from GW; it'll be a bit less if you're not paying MSRP, but 1000 points is still only half an army. And that's not even taking into account FW models. You think $20 is steep for a pair of Autothrusters? Try picking up Sevrin Loth or a Sicaran.

That list is really out of date in some places. That Necron example is 4 years out of date. Which makes me suspect he hasn't kept up with all the price hikes either.

That's almost undoubtedly true. I could easily have just quoted the price of GW's web bundles, but I didn't want to blow anyone's mind with just how expensive 40k is these days.

And we haven't even begun to factor in the value of the hobbyist aspect.

I tend to not factor in things like time, paints, assembly, ect... Because for some people, that's part of the enjoyment they get out of this hobby. I know myself I enjoy painting, and have gotten a fair amount of relaxation out of paining my Imperial Assault stuff.

On the one hand it's very nice to be able to open a box of X-Wing or Armada stuff and be pretty much done, but on the other some of us like painting or even assembling stuff so IMO the cost/time of that shouldn't be a factor...

And we haven't even begun to factor in the value of the hobbyist aspect.

I tend to not factor in things like time, paints, assembly, ect... Because for some people, that's part of the enjoyment they get out of this hobby. I know myself I enjoy painting, and have gotten a fair amount of relaxation out of paining my Imperial Assault stuff.On the one hand it's very nice to be able to open a box of X-Wing or Armada stuff and be pretty much done, but on the other some of us like painting or even assembling stuff so IMO the cost/time of that shouldn't be a factor...

That's a fair point, but in terms of actually playing the game, which is what this thread is ultimately about, assembly is still a barrier. Unless, of course, we concede that we don't even need anything besides the bases themselves, at which point I've come full circle.

I could easily have just quoted the price of GW's web bundles, but I didn't want to blow anyone's mind with just how expensive 40k is these days.

To rebuild my 1750 point list, it would cost right around $600 at current prices.

You have to buy the cards for official tournaments. If you don't like it, you have two options. The first is to just not go to events. The next is to try to get FFG to change it. If you try to create a grassroots movement on the forums, you will get a lot of resistance and people yelling you down. The second isn't really a good option. I think this thread so far shows that most on these forums don't want to join.

That's a fair point, but in terms of actually playing the game, which is what this thread is ultimately about, assembly is still a barrier.

True, and it's also a barrier to getting into the hobby at all. I know a number of people here have said that they chose X-Wing because the hobby part of 40k or warmachine was more they they wanted or could manage.

I'm just saying that not everyone considers painting stuff to be a bad thing. So I just don't factor it into the cost of playing the game, it's not like no one has ever put a primer white army on the table.

I could easily have just quoted the price of GW's web bundles, but I didn't want to blow anyone's mind with just how expensive 40k is these days.

To rebuild my 750 point list, it would cost right around $600 at current prices.

... Now you've piqued my curiosity. I built a 1000 point list for $250, although if you avoid the battleforce you'd pay another 50 dollars. What were you running? Aspect Warriors or Sisters?

... Now you've piqued my curiosity.

That was a typo, I meant to say my 1750 point list, of space marines. I based the price in part by getting the Dark Vengeance box.

... Now you've piqued my curiosity.

That was a typo, I meant to say my 1750 point list, of space marines. I based the price in part by getting the Dark Vengeance box.

Oh. That makes much more sense.

"I don't think FFG will do this and here are some reasons why" is hardly "yelling you down."

I'm in the camp that says if it's casual, no problem.

If it's a tournament, then you need the cards.

I just added up what you would need to spend if you wanted to recreate the Regional winning list at Malmo. This was done using the X-Wing Sqn Builder to find out what expansions would be needed for the upgrades, and assumes that you buy all of the models instead of individual cards.

As far as I can see you would need to buy -

Decimator

Starviper

Falcon

Lambda

Slave 1

Tie Defender

Tie Interceptor

Imperial Aces

That might be wrong, because some of the upgrades may be available in other packs, but assuming it's right, that's £147 to put that list out, £166 without the online discount.

Not all that cheap when you consider that most of it is for an upgrade card you want to include.

But, as others have pointed out, nobody is forcing people to spend their money on X-Wing.

Cheers

Baaa

I'm in the camp that says if it's casual, no problem.

If it's a tournament, then you need the cards.

I just added up what you would need to spend if you wanted to recreate the Regional winning list at Malmo. This was done using the X-Wing Sqn Builder to find out what expansions would be needed for the upgrades, and assumes that you buy all of the models instead of individual cards.

As far as I can see you would need to buy -

Decimator

Starviper

Falcon

Lambda

Slave 1

Tie Defender

Tie Interceptor

Imperial Aces

That might be wrong, because some of the upgrades may be available in other packs, but assuming it's right, that's £147 to put that list out, £166 without the online discount.

Not all that cheap when you consider that most of it is for an upgrade card you want to include.

But, as others have pointed out, nobody is forcing people to spend their money on X-Wing.

Cheers

Baaa

You also need the starter set, so it's a bit more than that.

On the other hand, you've to the cards and ships for a number of different imperial lists, and if you add in a copy of Most Wanted and another rebel ship, you'd have enough to run lists from the other factions as well.

You also need the starter set, so it's a bit more than that.

On the other hand, you've to the cards and ships for a number of different imperial lists, and if you add in a copy of Most Wanted and another rebel ship, you'd have enough to run lists from the other factions as well.

Forgot about the starter set, and you're 100% right about being able to add another couple of ships in to build different lists.

Cheers

Baaa

I'm in the camp that says if it's casual, no problem.

If it's a tournament, then you need the cards.

I just added up what you would need to spend if you wanted to recreate the Regional winning list at Malmo. This was done using the X-Wing Sqn Builder to find out what expansions would be needed for the upgrades, and assumes that you buy all of the models instead of individual cards.

As far as I can see you would need to buy -

Decimator

Starviper

Falcon

Lambda

Slave 1

Tie Defender

Tie Interceptor

Imperial Aces

That might be wrong, because some of the upgrades may be available in other packs, but assuming it's right, that's £147 to put that list out, £166 without the online discount.

Not all that cheap when you consider that most of it is for an upgrade card you want to include.

But, as others have pointed out, nobody is forcing people to spend their money on X-Wing.

Cheers

Baaa

I got $158 from MM, and that's including the core set and free shipping. I'd say that's actually pretty **** cheap, all things considered.

you'd have enough to run lists from the other factions as well.

That is IMO what makes X-Wing so cheap relatively speaking.

Sure it's pretty easy to spend $250-300 on X-Wing ships. But you spend that much on a Warmachine or 40k list, and you get maybe a couple effective lists out of it, maybe only 1.

With X-Wing hower you actually get quite a few, because X-Wing is perhaps the cheapest game per list out there. The only one that I've played comes close is Flames of War

I got $158 from MM, and that's including the core set and free shipping. I'd say that's actually pretty **** cheap, all things considered.

It is, but then again, I suppose it depends on your perspective of what's cheap (although I wish I could pick them up for $158).

Personally I'll try and pick up cards that I want individually. Where the cost of those cards start to become what I consider silly I'll spend the extra few pounds for the expansion when I can afford it, whether or not I'll use the models in another list, is something different.

Cheers

Baaa

That is IMO what makes X-Wing so cheap relatively speaking.

Sure it's pretty easy to spend $250-300 on X-Wing ships. But you spend that much on a Warmachine or 40k list, and you get maybe a couple effective lists out of it, maybe only 1.

With X-Wing hower you actually get quite a few, because X-Wing is perhaps the cheapest game per list out there. The only one that I've played comes close is Flames of War

It is cheap compared to a lot of games out there, but it's also difficult to compare game systems accurately. The list I used as an example is a 2 ship squad.

BBBBZ would cost £47.95 before discount, £59.95 without, and both without the Core Set.

That's a competitive list for 1/3 rd of the price to put the Regional list above on the table, and a competitive list with no upgrade cards.

Cheers

Baaa

I know I could make usable squads in DnD Minis for cheap IF I went to ebay or someplace similar to buy the minis. While they could be fully functional and thematic it was almost always possible to build a 'better' squad by adding a number of high priced pieces that either cost a lot as singles or often would require good luck to get in a random booster. I'd have said it was possible to build fun squads in DDM for $20 or less but there was another extreme where squads could be filled with rare pieces that cost more than $20 each on the single's market.

I might say the same thing about WotC's Star Wars minis except there the 'budget' squads were a lot harder to make as Very Rare pieces often made up the dominant forces. For light gaming, and RPG uses, I was normally ok with under $30 each expansion for commons and uncommons but to make a really competitive squad it normally required a rare or VR piece or two.

Now from that background coming into X-Wing the mini costs seemed a bit high but the quality is much better and more importantly there isn't any of that hunting around for the right pieces because you know where to get it and how much it would cost.

I mean, I have no intention of playing in any FFG tournaments

Then why is this conversation even happening? So you can convince us GW's "spend $1000 on your army that will be obsolete in 9 months" business model is better?

Now I'd like to share some perspective with you guys. Discount Games has a tournament section that lists all of the recent Warmahordes winners, as well as the option to buy their winning lists with the click of a button. Bearing in mind that this is an online retailer who deals in high volume, the average list costs well over $200, comes unassembled and unpainted, and with no relevant rules apart from the cards that accompany the individual figures.

Some kind and patient soul has done a bit of the relevant accounting work for 40k here. Note that your average 1000 point army costs ~$300-$450 from GW; it'll be a bit less if you're not paying MSRP, but 1000 points is still only half an army. And that's not even taking into account FW models. You think $20 is steep for a pair of Autothrusters? Try picking up Sevrin Loth or a Sicaran.

Now I challenge you to go to MM and build a list for X-Wing, any list, and see how much it costs you. Then come back and tell me how unfair FFG is.

We're starting to push the analogy about as far as it can go, given the difference in volume, size and complexity of the models, but let me just say that if I, as a new player starting out in X Wing wish to buy a full range of upgrade cards for my models, in order to have access to all the rules they can use, then I need to buy several copies of EVERY MODEL.

As a percentage of costs, this is MUCH HIGHER than simply buying a codex and an army. Every time I want to run an upgraded TIE advance, I need to buy a new Imperial Raider. Imagine if I wanted to run three or four of them! But thinking that's a rip-off is just being entitled, right? Yeah it's more expensive to get started in 40K or Warmachine, but it's even more expensive to stay up to date with the rules in X Wing.

It's extremely entitled for you to expect to get the things that you want at the price that you want, simply because you want them.

Bundling valuable upgrade cards into expensive ship 'expansion packs' purely as a way to drive sales is a **** move. It is totally unreasonable to expect a consumer to buy a Ferrari so they can get a spare wheel for their Ford.

It sure can, because then I have to keep track of which 3 ships have it. Same goes for other upgrades. The cards are playing pieces not just reference cards. So you need to treat them accordingly.

A list is hardly a difficult way of keeping track of things.

For instance, I used to play a lot of Battlefleet Gothic. I had to keep track of which ships had shields and which didn't (and shields could regenerate in that game) which ships had suffered how much damage, which had taken critical hits and what those effects were, which had upgrades, which were crippled, what orders each ship were on, and other sundry information. I managed all this quite easily with a pen and paper list. This dependence on cards to keep track of things is an artifice of FFG. The cards are not playing pieces, although some people (and official FFG events treat them as such).

I mean, I have no intention of playing in any FFG tournaments

Then why is this conversation even happening? So you can convince us GW's "spend $1000 on your army that will be obsolete in 9 months" business model is better?

I don't really care which is better. But the two pronged approach from FFG of requiring you to have the physical cards on the table for every upgrade, and then only providing those cards in certain expansion packs is a **** move, regardless of how it compares to other business practices.

We're starting to push the analogy about as far as it can go, given the difference in volume, size and complexity of the models, but let me just say that if I, as a new player starting out in X Wing wish to buy a full range of upgrade cards for my models, in order to have access to all the rules they can use, then I need to buy several copies of EVERY MODEL.

As a percentage of costs, this is MUCH HIGHER than simply buying a codex and an army. Every time I want to run an upgraded TIE advance, I need to buy a new Imperial Raider. Imagine if I wanted to run three or four of them! But thinking that's a rip-off is just being entitled, right?

But we're not talking about percentages, or some abstract ideal, we're talking about the practical cost of fielding an actual list. It's not even an analogy, it's a comparison of what you can reasonably expect to spend on various miniatures games. I'm actually amazed that after all this time you still haven't learned to watch your language. Want want want want want, you want this, you want that. If you want something, you have to pay for it. There is no need, unless winning a competitive event is important to you. Then you have to play by the rules, just like the rest of us. And even then, a hundred dollars is a drop in the bucket by comparison to what you could be spending to compete in any other game. For someone with a passing familiarity with miniatures games, I'm really not sure what your expectation is.

Yeah it's more expensive to get started in 40K or Warmachine, but it's even more expensive to stay up to date with the rules in X Wing.

As absurd as that is, I'll humor you for a second. Show me how much money it would cost for a rule book, every codex, and enough models to field an 1850 point list for every faction, and then compare that to the cost of four of every ship currently released for X-Wing. I'm serious, do the math and present your evidence, then make that assertion again.

Bundling valuable upgrade cards into expensive ship 'expansion packs' purely as a way to drive sales is a **** move. It is totally unreasonable to expect a consumer to buy a Ferrari so they can get a spare wheel for their Ford.

If fifteen dollars is expensive to you, you may want to consider a new line of work. You want a real analogy? It is totally unreasonable for you to expect a Ferrari for the price of your Ford. You may want the former, but wanting something doesn't make you entitled to it.

As a percentage of costs, this is MUCH HIGHER than simply buying a codex and an army. Every time I want to run an upgraded TIE advance, I need to buy a new Imperial Raider. Imagine if I wanted to run three or four of them! But thinking that's a rip-off is just being entitled, right? Yeah it's more expensive to get started in 40K or Warmachine, but it's even more expensive to stay up to date with the rules in X Wing.

The Raider is coming with four copies of the relevant TIE Advanced upgrades, so you'd only have to buy it once if you wanted to run three or four of them.

We're starting to push the analogy about as far as it can go, given the difference in volume, size and complexity of the models, but let me just say that if I, as a new player starting out in X Wing wish to buy a full range of upgrade cards for my models, in order to have access to all the rules they can use, then I need to buy several copies of EVERY MODEL.

As a percentage of costs, this is MUCH HIGHER than simply buying a codex and an army. Every time I want to run an upgraded TIE advance, I need to buy a new Imperial Raider. Imagine if I wanted to run three or four of them! But thinking that's a rip-off is just being entitled, right? Yeah it's more expensive to get started in 40K or Warmachine, but it's even more expensive to stay up to date with the rules in X Wing.

Except no. The Raider comes with no less than four TIE Advanced titles and Advanced Targeting Computers. It is impossible for a single Raider to not cover a player for all future 100 points TIE Advanced uses, and should really cover absolutely everything unless you want to do something crazy like run eight of them in Epic play. A lot of other releases also come with multiple copies of key upgrades, and FFG have been consistently re-releasing upgrades that prove popular to increase the supply.

For someone who picked on FFG for not doing their homework earlier in the thread, you seem to have an aversion to doing it yourself.