t's just flat-out against the rules.

As was using mixed faction dials. There were pages and pages and pages of people making excuses for why that rule was appropriate, prattling on about nonsense like confusion and aesthetics. If you are in the mood for seeing what an authority can drive people to justify, go give them a read. Now, FFG acknowledged that the mixed faction dial rule did not have a meaningful impact on the game, and I am yet to see a thread complaining about have the reversal has negatively impacted their experience. The indignation of not have originals of each card is the same. It does not impact the gameplay and has a negligible impact on players experience (which is probably outweighed by the freedom that it would bring to list building). The only difference is that FFG will not change their position because it is a much stronger force in driving sales.

Mixed faction dials have NEVER been against the rules. There was a question about how they might work and someone gave an opinion which many ran with as being 'official' but it never actually was.

It's also a completely different kettle of fish. Whether the dials match faction or not, you're still using official product released by FFG that has been bought and paid for. Copies of upgrade cards printed at home by a player are such a different issue that I cannot believe it's even been brought up.

It's also a completely different kettle of fish. Whether the dials match faction or not, you're still using official product released by FFG that has been bought and paid for. Copies of upgrade cards printed at home by a player are such a different issue that I cannot believe it's even been brought up.

No argument there. I'd say the fact that the dial is officially part of the FFG release was a perfectly good reason why 'mixed faction' dials shouldn't be a problem any more than custom paint jobs.

Generally, do competitive tournaments allow you to have printed cards (i.e. not the actual upgrade, but a printed one on your squad list)?

For example, if I want Accuracy Corrector for my Imperial list, do I really have to buy multiple Star Vipers for a faction I don't play just to get the cards?

In the FFG X-WIng tournament rules I do see it stating that proxy cards are not allowed.

Borrow from a friend.

I think the fundamentally forgotten thing here is that fantasy flight games is trying to run a business here. To do that they need to sell product. Requiring legit components helps do that. That money people spend supports more game and the people who make it. Why would you want to take possible new stuff and food out of the mouths of everyone involved in the products.

Because FFG trying to make money of the games they develop is clearly an inappropriate cash-grab. How dare they expect and require people to purchase thier product for use in official events. What nerve.

The Starviper comes with two Autothrusters. Worth the purchase!

Fixed that for you.

If I don't have to use an official, legitimate copy of an upgrade card, do I have to use the right ship? Do I have to use an official, legitimate FFG ship, or can I use a proxied ship? Can I use a third party ship, from a custom 3D print shop, or one from a different game altogether? Can I use no ship at all? Do I even need a tile? If we're assuming that people play this game so much that they don't need any of the accompanying media (which is a false assumption, might I add), then what, if anything, is really required to play the game? Just the bases, templates, and dice, and even those could be mocked up. The line has to be drawn somewhere, and it's not unreasonable for that line to be where it currently is. Yes, people can cheat in all manner of different ways, but few are as easily preventable as this one. Either you have the right card or you don't. It's really that simple.

If you don't have to use an original upgrade car, do you even have to roll the correct dice? Do you even have to play in the tournament to win? Can you pillage the tournament venue, cracking skulls and scooping up C-3PO cards to sell on ebay? Slippery slope arguments are looked down upon for good reasons, so don't bother. People are perfectly capable of tackling individual decisions one at a time and I hope that you are not suggesting that playing with improper upgrade cards would change the game experience in the same way that playing with no ships woud.

There are very strong arguments against using reprinted cards (like the fact that it is most likely a violation of copyright laws) and the fact that you are fine with the line being draw somewhere is fine. However, just like the mixed faction dials, I don't think that the proxied, re-printed upgrade cards, or an electronically generated list with upgrades and the rules for them listed (definitely the most efficient and player friendly option) have a negative impact on the player experience that wouldn't be outweighed by the convenience and freedom that players would benefit from.

With regard to my assumption that people generally have a working knowledge of the games rules, I do not think that it is incorrect. There really are not that many upgrade cards in this game. Besides, the cell phone in someone's pocket can bring up the official card in less than 30 seconds.

It's not a slippery slope to suggest that you could play the game without any of those elements, it's a fact. Have you ever stopped to consider why we play the game the way that we do? You don't need any of it, but it's part of the game that FFG has made for us. If that didn't mean something then we might as well start bringing homebrew cards too. Consistency matters. Uniformity matters. Why bother cherry picking the pieces that you feel are required and the ones that aren't? What's the rationale?

With regard to my assumption that people generally have a working knowledge of the games rules, I do not think that it is incorrect. There really are not that many upgrade cards in this game. Besides, the cell phone in someone's pocket can bring up the official card in less than 30 seconds.

I've played against too many new players to be able to agree with you, most of whom can't remember to take an action when their ship activates let alone memorize the entire text of a given card. I've come across too many corner cases where the exact wording of a card makes a difference to be able to agree with you. I've spent too much time looking up card information on my smart phone to be able to agree that it wasn't more than a minor inconvenience, especially given the constraints of a timed match. You're making assumptions about relative skill levels that just doesn't pan out in real life.

The physical ship sitting on the peg is far more superfluous compared to most any other game element. It literally has no effect on gameplay as everything is done from the base/base plate. It is just there to look cool.

Someone's opinion on whether or not the official cards should be required has absolutely no bearing on whether or not, by tournament rules, those cards are required.

The physical ship sitting on the peg is far more superfluous compared to most any other game element. It literally has no effect on gameplay as everything is done from the base/base plate. It is just there to look cool.

I'm going to disagree with that. Actually having a ship on the peg actually can INTERFERE with game play with the only actual benefit from it being purely visual.

FFG should ban ships.

FFG should ban ships.

Specific ships or just the models? There is that thread around here asking about banned material.

Just all the models. Like you said they only can interfere with gameplay.

Someone's opinion on whether or not the official cards should be required has absolutely no bearing on whether or not, by tournament rules, those cards are required.

Consistency matters. Uniformity matters. Why bother cherry picking the pieces that you feel are required and the ones that aren't? What's the rationale?

I've spent too much time looking up card information on my smart phone to be able to agree that it wasn't more than a minor inconvenience, especially given the constraints of a timed match. You're making assumptions about relative skill levels that just doesn't pan out in real life.

I'll go with a simple analysis: If it's an FFG-sanctioned event, FFG gets to make the rules, and we get to decide if we want to play in that event under those rules. If it's not an FFG-sanctioned event, the sanctioning body is free to make up whatever rules they want, and we get to decide if we want to play in that event under those rules. If nobody is running an event using rules that you personally like, talk a friend into running a tournament with rules you do like.

I suspect the real issue is "I want the reward FFG gives out, without having to follow the rules FFG requires me to follow in order to have a chance of receiving the reward."

Someone's opinion on whether or not the official cards should be required has absolutely no bearing on whether or not, by tournament rules, those cards are required.

No kidding. But, questions like this are usually the starting point for discussions about rules that people don't like. Sometimes those rules get changed, so why not discuss them?

Consistency matters. Uniformity matters. Why bother cherry picking the pieces that you feel are required and the ones that aren't? What's the rationale?

Consistency does matter, except for when it does not. It depends on what impact that consistency actually has on playing the game. We can try to mold the game in whatever way that we see fit. The mixed faction dial rule was official and created consistency. It also happened to be overly restrictive with no real benefit to the players. People said that they did not appreciate the rule, so it was changed. Changing bad rules to make the game better results in a better game.

I've spent too much time looking up card information on my smart phone to be able to agree that it wasn't more than a minor inconvenience, especially given the constraints of a timed match. You're making assumptions about relative skill levels that just doesn't pan out in real life.

Skill levels? As in using the internet?Type "xwing" and the name of the card into google and you will have the image of the card immediately. It takes longer than looking at something that is directly in front of you, but don't try to suggest that the extra ten seconds is prohibitive.

I'm suggesting exactly that, because that's my experience as both a player and a TO. Do you play this game? I ask because it's cute that you can make these assumptions, but real life doesn't work that way. A game that requires people to constantly look up card text isn't a game worth playing.

I would have zero problem letting people proxy against me. Some auto include upgrades like the royal guard title are pointless to put on the table, and I don't want to win against someone because their collection is too small and they only can field one push the limit or because I beat them with some money build like 4x Tactician B Wings while they don't have access to Predator. Not everyone is willing/able to put as much money into this game as I have and I don't want that to be an advantage. If you want to proxy auto thrusters in a tournament game against me without buying a Starviper, be my guest.

Not a hugh fan of FFG's way of handling upgrade cards, but I'm sure it sells them a hell of a lot of ships. Glad I'm single with no kids...

It's also a completely different kettle of fish. Whether the dials match faction or not, you're still using official product released by FFG that has been bought and paid for. Copies of upgrade cards printed at home by a player are such a different issue that I cannot believe it's even been brought up.

Well, let's leave it aside for a moment then.

Let's say I have a list that includes four identical pilots, and each of them has two identical upgrade cards.

So that means I need four copies of the pilot card, and eight copies of the upgrade card.

How about, instead of buying four pilot cards and 8 upgrade cards, I instead buy just one of each.

I write my roster on a piece of paper. I use this piece of paper to record which upgrades have been expended and which have not, and how many shields or hit points my ships have remaining.

Is this a problem?

I think the fundamentally forgotten thing here is that fantasy flight games is trying to run a business here. To do that they need to sell product. Requiring legit components helps do that. That money people spend supports more game and the people who make it. Why would you want to take possible new stuff and food out of the mouths of everyone involved in the products.

Because to draw an analogy to 40K, the FFG system is akin to saying that before I can upgrade my Landraider to have Smoke Launchers, I need to buy the Rhino model.

Having only recently started the game, it's a painful system to comply with. I don't want to have to buy ultra expensive models like the Raider to use a simple upgrade, and the only alternative is to buy second hand parts? There is a clear demand from players to buy rules and cards (sans models) from FFG, but they won't let me. Why won't they let me give them my money?

It's also a completely different kettle of fish. Whether the dials match faction or not, you're still using official product released by FFG that has been bought and paid for. Copies of upgrade cards printed at home by a player are such a different issue that I cannot believe it's even been brought up.

Well, let's leave it aside for a moment then.

Let's say I have a list that includes four identical pilots, and each of them has two identical upgrade cards.

So that means I need four copies of the pilot card, and eight copies of the upgrade card.

How about, instead of buying four pilot cards and 8 upgrade cards, I instead buy just one of each.

I write my roster on a piece of paper. I use this piece of paper to record which upgrades have been expended and which have not, and how many shields or hit points my ships have remaining.

Is this a problem?

I think the fundamentally forgotten thing here is that fantasy flight games is trying to run a business here. To do that they need to sell product. Requiring legit components helps do that. That money people spend supports more game and the people who make it. Why would you want to take possible new stuff and food out of the mouths of everyone involved in the products.

Because to draw an analogy to 40K, the FFG system is akin to saying that before I can upgrade my Landraider to have Smoke Launchers, I need to buy the Rhino model.

Having only recently started the game, it's a painful system to comply with. I don't want to have to buy ultra expensive models like the Raider to use a simple upgrade, and the only alternative is to buy second hand parts? There is a clear demand from players to buy rules and cards (sans models) from FFG, but they won't let me. Why won't they let me give them my money?

It's also a completely different kettle of fish. Whether the dials match faction or not, you're still using official product released by FFG that has been bought and paid for. Copies of upgrade cards printed at home by a player are such a different issue that I cannot believe it's even been brought up.

Well, let's leave it aside for a moment then.Let's say I have a list that includes four identical pilots, and each of them has two identical upgrade cards.So that means I need four copies of the pilot card, and eight copies of the upgrade card.How about, instead of buying four pilot cards and 8 upgrade cards, I instead buy just one of each.I write my roster on a piece of paper. I use this piece of paper to record which upgrades have been expended and which have not, and how many shields or hit points my ships have remaining.Is this a problem?

I think the fundamentally forgotten thing here is that fantasy flight games is trying to run a business here. To do that they need to sell product. Requiring legit components helps do that. That money people spend supports more game and the people who make it. Why would you want to take possible new stuff and food out of the mouths of everyone involved in the products.

Because to draw an analogy to 40K, the FFG system is akin to saying that before I can upgrade my Landraider to have Smoke Launchers, I need to buy the Rhino model.Having only recently started the game, it's a painful system to comply with. I don't want to have to buy ultra expensive models like the Raider to use a simple upgrade, and the only alternative is to buy second hand parts? There is a clear demand from players to buy rules and cards (sans models) from FFG, but they won't let me. Why won't they let me give them my money?

You'd think somebody familiar with 40k would have more perspective. How many X-Wing ships could you buy for the combined price of a Land Raider and Rhino?

That is a different issue yet again from what is being discussed here. All I will say on it is that while I sympathise, there's nothing that can be done about it. If I could go back in time and get onto the original design team for X-wing, I would make the upgrade system work in a more user friendly manner. But that ship has sailed, and the game now is what it is. Either abide by it or don't play at a tournament level. Simple as that.

I have absolutely not intention of playing in a FFG tournament. I know it seems odd to be posting in a thread specifically dealing with FFG tournaments, but the issue of rules, proxy cards and lists is kind of close to my heart at the moment.

As for FFG not giving you a way to buy the cards: they have repeatedly said that they cannot make a profit from card packs. And that truly is the beginning and end of the discussion.

If that's what they think, then I can only suggest they haven't done their homework.

You'd think somebody familiar with 40k would have more perspective. How many X-Wing ships could you buy for the combined price of a Land Raider and Rhino?

It's only an example. One could just as easily look to Warmachine or Dystopian Wars, both games that release in waves and use cards, but also provide rules in books that are available to purchase. The entire concept of needing to buy model X so that I can add an upgrade to model Y is very strange.

If that's what they think, then I can only suggest they haven't done their homework.

Ooh, that's interesting. If you have insight into their marketing research and accounting data, what else aren't you telling us? I'd like to know what's in wave 8.

You'd think somebody familiar with 40k would have more perspective. How many X-Wing ships could you buy for the combined price of a Land Raider and Rhino?

It's only an example. One could just as easily look to Warmachine or Dystopian Wars, both games that release in waves and use cards, but also provide rules in books that are available to purchase. The entire concept of needing to buy model X so that I can add an upgrade to model Y is very strange.

And that's why you don't understand; you don't need any of it, you want it. If winning is important to you, spend the money.