If that's what they think, then I can only suggest they haven't done their homework.

Ooh, that's interesting. If you have insight into their marketing research and accounting data, what else aren't you telling us? I'd like to know what's in wave 8.

You'd think somebody familiar with 40k would have more perspective. How many X-Wing ships could you buy for the combined price of a Land Raider and Rhino?

It's only an example. One could just as easily look to Warmachine or Dystopian Wars, both games that release in waves and use cards, but also provide rules in books that are available to purchase. The entire concept of needing to buy model X so that I can add an upgrade to model Y is very strange.

And that's why you don't understand; you don't need any of it, you want it. If winning is important to you, spend the money.

You seem a little hostile.

Skill levels? As in using the internet?Type "xwing" and the name of the card into google and you will have the image of the card immediately. It takes longer than looking at something that is directly in front of you, but don't try to suggest that the extra ten seconds is prohibitive.

Have you ever tried to use the internet in a more remote region? On a network that isn't Verizon? With a Wi-Fi source that is being sharred? During an outage?

Sad as it makes me, the internet is not yet ubiquitous.

More dangerously though, what if the card is rare and your internet sight has a photoshoped version? Does FFG need to maintain an official site with legal cards so you don't have to buy them?

Having an official printed card eliminates that risk, and the overhead that comes with it, in money and staff time for TO. The expense is played by the players, who choose what cards they want. Competitive lists can be made very cheaply, and among your friends you can proxy anything.

You seem a little hostile.

Nope, that's just my rhetorical style.

If winning is important to you, spend the money.

Awesome.

More dangerously though, what if the card is rare and your internet sight has a photoshoped version?

If winning is important to you, spend the money.

WOW. That is the game that I want to play. Just like a freemium game for one of those difficult to use cell phone contraptions. Those games always go the distance, so why not a system with a pay to win component. Great. At least you are up front about it.

Awesome.

Oh, for God's sake. If you want to run list [X], then you must buy or otherwise acquire all of the ships and upgrades involved in list [X]. Otherwise you play something else. If that means playing a lesser list, then you can bloody well suck it up and run the lesser list.

The sense of entitlement from some people on this board is absolutely breathtaking.

The sense of entitlement from some people on this board is absolutely breathtaking.

I hardly think it's 'entitled' to not be expected to buy half a dozen models that don't feature in my list, just so I can run the list I want. Why should I have to buy a Starviper, if I want run a list that doesn't even feature the **** ship? Let alone buy a Raider just so I can use the TIE advance fix.

I mean, I have no intention of playing in any FFG tournaments so they can take their rules and bash them where the sun doesn't shine. If I want to use the TIE advance fix I'll be doing it with a scanned card, and if I want to include Engine Upgrades on all my ships then I'll be doing it regardless of how many of that particular card I own. As far as I'm concerned the cards are just rules, and rules are not physical gaming pieces. I don't see the need to physically place pilot cards or upgrade cards on the table.

@DR4CO

Call it entitlement if you want, but I am a consumer, so I look out for the best interests of the consumer (i.e. if a rule is put in place to primarily benefit the seller, then there had better be a good reason).

Besides, admitting that cash provides an advantage is a big deal. Games that incorporate that into their playing experience can face a lot of struggles and a lot of them don't last once people start getting tired of it.

@Chucknuckkle

Then why are you even buying anything?

You do already seem to think you dont need to pay for the cards, so why pay for the ships. In fact dont buy anything from this game so the evil ffg dont get your moneyz. You dont need anything from ffg to play this game. Just use square cardboards on bases with TIE Fighter written on them, and write down your manouvre instead of using dials. Why stop at upgrade and pilot cards?

If you want play a certain lists just buy the ships, but it is entitled when you think buying one ships allows you to run upgrades that doesnt include in that package.

@Chucknuckkle

Then why are you even buying anything?

It is just like critical hit tokens. Very few people where I play use them and it does not change the game. Is it a rule that you have to use them? Sure. Does it make a difference if you use them? Probably not. I have seen players with and without them forget to account for a face up damage card.

I know what you are thinking, "If you don't follow the critical hit token rules, then why follow any rules at all?" Do you see how silly that kind of argument is?

You'd think somebody familiar with 40k would have more perspective. How many X-Wing ships could you buy for the combined price of a Land Raider and Rhino?

It's only an example. One could just as easily look to Warmachine or Dystopian Wars, both games that release in waves and use cards, but also provide rules in books that are available to purchase. The entire concept of needing to buy model X so that I can add an upgrade to model Y is very strange.

When you buy a unit for your Cygnar Army, the only choice you get is how large of a unit you want to run. When you buy a ship for Dystopian Wars you may get 1-2 hardpoint upgrades for that one ship.

You don't get 4 options of the base ship and then multiple upgrades for any of those options, along with upgrades that you can use on a completely different ship.

You view the concept as strange because it is something you aren't use to, but frankly having played all if those other games you've mentioned this strange concept is just plain better.

Every ship you purchase adds more to your collection then just the ship that you may or may not use in any given list. You buy a unit for your Warmachine army or a ship for your Dystopian fleet you only get value from that purchase when you put that purchase in a list. So you buy a duplicate unit to run that one list maybe a handful of times a year that's the only time you are getting value from that purchase. I buy a Raider for X-wing I get value from my purchase whenever I use it or the Advanced, but also whenever I use any of the upgrades in it.

I agree to a point you dont need anything from ffg to play, you might make x wings hull 100 for all i care. But the common denominator is the ffg rules and the ffg products, us playing a rule wrong doesnt change that. And doesnt entitle a person to carbon copy a card on ffg ruled tournaments. You dont get to pick and choose which part you want the rules to appy to you.

If you buy a miniature for the plastic and the paintjob and the injection mold process? Go for it. But the moment you play as any different than ffg rules, thats what you do. You play different than ffg rules. Wanting to copy cards is no different than putting cardboard ships.

@DR4CO

Call it entitlement if you want, but I am a consumer, so I look out for the best interests of the consumer (i.e. if a rule is put in place to primarily benefit the seller, then there had better be a good reason).

Besides, admitting that cash provides an advantage is a big deal. Games that incorporate that into their playing experience can face a lot of struggles and a lot of them don't last once people start getting tired of it.

Can you actually name a game of this type or similar in which you aren't at an advantage if you are able to purchase every option available to you over a player that isn't?

If I own a full field allowance of every Khador model available aren't I at an advantage compared to someone that can't make that investment? Wouldn't even I be at a disadvantage compared to the person that has that array of Khador but also Trolls?

I mean I could do that for every similar game but you get the point.

So how is this a problem, particularly at all, or one at all unique to X-wing?

But the moment you play as any different than ffg rules, thats what you do. You play different than ffg rules. Wanting to copy cards is no different than putting cardboard ships.

The desire to change any rule is the same as the desire to change any other rule, so that is corrext. But what does that mean? What is your point?

What actuallymatters is the impact of the rule. Playing with cardboard ships will have a large impact on player experience. Saying that your tableside copy of push the limit applies to three ships instead on just one will not.

Hey, can I also bring proxies for FFG's Star Wars card games?

Or what about games like Magic: The Gathering. I haven't played that, but I wonder if I actually need to buy the cards to play that game at tournaments?

This rules is nothing more than FFGs WYSIWYG. As a miniatures gamer players need to get over this. In casual do what you want, but in tournaments just obey the rules as the company that makes the game says to do.

At least in X-Wing you may have to buy a certain ship to get another copy of an upgrade. Let's see for $15 retail, or $10 on most internet sites, you get another ship, all it's pilot's cards, all templates that got to said ship, and all the upgrades that are packaged with it.

In WH40K if you want 2 guys in a squad to have Combi-Meltas you have 2 options. Buy 2 kits, at $25 retail, that the only thing you need from them is the 1 Combi-Melta from each because the rest of the stuff you'll never use. Or you can buy 2 little pieces of plastic on eBay for $10 each...

To me half the fun of X-wing is trying to make good list out of stuff I have, not copying best list I found on net and crying I have to proxy half of it.

But the moment you play as any different than ffg rules, thats what you do. You play different than ffg rules. Wanting to copy cards is no different than putting cardboard ships.

We can get FFG to change the rules. We already have once.

So now every time anything happens that anyone doesn't like (or any time they remember years-old rules that they suddenly disapprove of), they're going to just go on and on about it on the forums, incessantly complaining, and expect FFG to change the rules for them because now there's a precedent for that?

Fantastic.

Card justice warriors of x wing?

But the moment you play as any different than ffg rules, thats what you do. You play different than ffg rules. Wanting to copy cards is no different than putting cardboard ships.

We can get FFG to change the rules. We already have once. Memories are short when it is convenient.

The desire to change any rule is the same as the desire to change any other rule, so that is corrext. But what does that mean? What is your point?

What actuallymatters is the impact of the rule. Playing with cardboard ships will have a large impact on player experience. Saying that your tableside copy of push the limit applies to three ships instead on just one will not.

How's that Night Beast rule change coming along?

In WH40K if you want 2 guys in a squad to have Combi-Meltas you have 2 options. Buy 2 kits, at $25 retail, that the only thing you need from them is the 1 Combi-Melta from each because the rest of the stuff you'll never use. Or you can buy 2 little pieces of plastic on eBay for $10 each...

This is wrong. In 40k, you can buy two guns that you want, but you can also make two of the guns that you want for only pennies. Besides, WYSIWYG is largely dead in 40k because players realized that the real benefit is to GW and not to the players. The reality of a 40k game is that you spend no time pressing your face to the table to confirm what a model is carrying when you can just ask your opponent what the model in question has on him. Maybe your 40k experience is different, but it is pretty different than the X-Wind card barrier and the attutude has really shifted to disfavor GW's protectionist rules.

Wow. That is the game that I want to play. Just like a freemium game for one of those difficult to use cell phone contraptions. Those games always go the distance, so why not a system with a pay to win component. Great. At least you are up front about it.

Awesome.

As others have explained to you already, you're paying $15 for a ship that has a number of relevant upgrades bundled in with it. Not only is that a good deal for people who actually want that particular ship, it's also quite unreasonable for you to expect the ships that you want to play with to come with every relevant upgrade.

I hardly think it's 'entitled' to not be expected to buy half a dozen models that don't feature in my list, just so I can run the list I want. Why should I have to buy a Starviper, if I want run a list that doesn't even feature the **** ship? Let alone buy a Raider just so I can use the TIE advance fix.

I mean, I have no intention of playing in any FFG tournaments so they can take their rules and bash them where the sun doesn't shine. If I want to use the TIE advance fix I'll be doing it with a scanned card, and if I want to include Engine Upgrades on all my ships then I'll be doing it regardless of how many of that particular card I own. As far as I'm concerned the cards are just rules, and rules are not physical gaming pieces. I don't see the need to physically place pilot cards or upgrade cards on the table.

It's extremely entitled for you to expect to get the things that you want at the price that you want, simply because you want them. And that choice of words should again be meaningful to you, because we're discussing things you want, not things you need. Nobody is stopping you from playing the game with the ships that you own; you are the one doing that.

We can get FFG to change the rules. We already have once. Memories are short when it is convenient.

The desire to change any rule is the same as the desire to change any other rule, so that is corrext. But what does that mean? What is your point?

What actuallymatters is the impact of the rule. Playing with cardboard ships will have a large impact on player experience. Saying that your tableside copy of push the limit applies to three ships instead on just one will not.

You need to remind me exactly what part it is that we played in any of the rules changes. If you're talking about FAQ contributions then great, you're welcome. If you're talking about the cloak change, that took almost a year of the development team watching and waiting to determine what, if anything, needed to be changed. The epic change was an even longer time coming. The snafu over dials? FFG accidentally released the wrong FAQ, and immediately changed it back when they realized their mistake. How about the playmat incident? That was never intended to be in there in the first place and, again, was promptly removed upon discovery. None of those things did we, as a community, have any direct influence over other than to simply inform the powers that be of said FAQ errors. Short memories are convenient, especially when they're completely mistaken.

This is wrong. In 40k, you can buy two guns that you want, but you can also make two of the guns that you want for only pennies. Besides, WYSIWYG is largely dead in 40k because players realized that the real benefit is to GW and not to the players. The reality of a 40k game is that you spend no time pressing your face to the table to confirm what a model is carrying when you can just ask your opponent what the model in question has on him. Maybe your 40k experience is different, but it is pretty different than the X-Wind card barrier and the attutude has really shifted to disfavor GW's protectionist rules.

Every game of 40k I've played recently involved an inordinate amount of time at the beginning explaining our respective armies, and not infrequently having confusion over a model suddenly having an upgrade that either I or my opponent was not aware of. That's not conducive to a good play experience at a casual level, let alone a competitive one.

And to the folks who think that either 40k or Warmahordes are something to aspire to, because you don't need upgrade cards to serve as reminders when you have volumes of rules text to reference, let me remind you of a few other things. In both games you need a rulebook to play the game, something that comes free of charge with the X-Wing core set, and can be found free of charge on FFG's main site. Already we're talking about a $30-$80 tax on your play experience, and that's not including pertinent codices. Oh, but you can just pirate those documents, right? Setting aside the ethical ramifications of IP infringement, allow me to share with you a practical experience we've had with a player at out shop recently. Said player is really into games, so much so that he often forgoes those rules documents so that he can spend his money directly on miniatures and get them onto the table ASAP. While that doesn't seem altogether bad, he really doesn't know the rules that well, and with somewhere over a dozen different factions (plus many more supplements) it becomes something of a chore to keep up with him. Never mind the fact that whenever we ask a question about his own models that he spends upwards of five minutes (not an exaggeration) looking up the pertinent rules, or that even when he finds them he gets them wrong. It's the fact that he's looking it up on his phone that's really inconvenient, because we can't simultaneously look up the same rules and be sure that we're sharing a consistent, uniform experience. Which site is he on? Is it a current PDF, or an older one? Having a codex handy would have been nice, because it would have spared us all most of that frustration. Not only would it have taken considerably less time to look things up, but he could also share that codex with us so we could look up the same rules for our own gratification. After several weeks of harping on him "buy a codex, buy a codex, buy a codex," it got so bad that we had to threaten to ban him from the current league if he didn't acquiesce. Now I want you to consider that upgrade cards exist for nearly the same reason; I can walk over to my opponent's side of the table and be 100% positive about what he's fielding without having to play twenty questions, without having to look things up on my phone, without being suddenly surprised mid-match by an upgrade I wasn't aware of, and with all of the surety that comes of being able to compare card text when a strange interactions creeps up and requires resolution.

Saying that your tableside copy of push the limit applies to three ships instead on just one will not.

It sure can, because then I have to keep track of which 3 ships have it. Same goes for other upgrades. The cards are playing pieces not just reference cards. So you need to treat them accordingly.

The means you need to have the ones the ships are actually using on the table, to do anything else is both breaking the rules and causing undue possible confusion on the part of both players.

There is simply no counter argument to the above, they are simple facts, and not really subject to debate.

Now I'd like to share some perspective with you guys. Discount Games has a tournament section that lists all of the recent Warmahordes winners, as well as the option to buy their winning lists with the click of a button. Bearing in mind that this is an online retailer who deals in high volume, the average list costs well over $200, comes unassembled and unpainted, and with no relevant rules apart from the cards that accompany the individual figures.

Some kind and patient soul has done a bit of the relevant accounting work for 40k here. Note that your average 1000 point army costs ~$300-$450 from GW; it'll be a bit less if you're not paying MSRP, but 1000 points is still only half an army. And that's not even taking into account FW models. You think $20 is steep for a pair of Autothrusters? Try picking up Sevrin Loth or a Sicaran.

Now I challenge you to go to MM and build a list for X-Wing, any list, and see how much it costs you. Then come back and tell me how unfair FFG is.

The other thing is... If I spend $250-750 for a full Warmahords or 40k army, I've gotten just that a single army in most cases.

1750 of Space Marines would let me put together perhaps 3-4 lists. The same amount of money in X-Wing lets me put together 35-40 lists, and not just 'well these 5 ships add up to 100 points' lists either.

Lets say for Warmachine it costs $250 for a list.

For X-Wing you can buy the following for $253 from Mini Market.

Core

Falcon

B-Wing

2x Tie Fighter

Tie Interceptor

A-Wing

Imperial Aces

Rebel Aces

Most Wanted

HWK-290

X-Wing

Phantom

VT-49

Y-Wing

Slave 1

How many decent lists could you make with that?

Anyone who thinks that they can fully participate in any miniatures based game for little to no investment in money, and often time, is deluding themselves. To play most games competitively would cost you much more than X-Wing, in both time and money.

X-Wing is basically a LMG, living miniatures game, following a similar path to the FFG LCGs. Also a better description may be a NCMG, non-collectible customizable miniature game. In both of these examples you know what you get in the box/blister, but you may need more than just the one to play.