Oh I have no doubt that an Xwing buff is coming, they'll definitely use it to help sell another product SKU. I'm just not sure what was needed.

As Rebels:

I think the point that MajorJuggler is trying to make, is that no one takes those ships now.

Although you do see a few Jan's out there from time to time.

But honestly fixing the X-Wing wouldn't have much impact, other than you'd see more X-Wings, because other ships offer other things.

The issue isn't that one or even a couple the pilots aren't any good, the problem is that none of the pilots are generally worth taking.

The 'fix' may not end up being a simple cost hack alone. We may also see new pilots and new astromechs to really round out the x-wing. (and other rebels ships with droid slots)

Possibly the K-wing too, TBD

I would be a bit surprised if Miranda wasn't cost-effective (I suppose it depends on the dial)

OP: I've been flying X-Wings in Vassal (named pilots - mostly Wes, Garven and Hobbie, as I prefer offense-related abilities) to get a feel for the craft, and the fundamental problem boils down to this: it has no mission it can perform. You kind of have to set it up into a joust every time, which is an automatic disadvantage right from deployment (your opponent will know what you'll be attempting and can stack the table's obstacle and his set-up against you) - if you try to attack from an angle, even with high PS, you'll just give the opposing ships more time to get in behind the X-Wing, where it's options boil down to 'set the K turn'.

You'll probably survive the joust, trading a ship with your opponent... and then what do you do? My best results have honestly been 'Set 4 forward, hope there's enough room for the follow-up K-turn'. Compare that to, say, the Defender - a ship that is also overpriced and well under-represented: after the joust, if your opponent makes the mistake of trying to stay in the fight, the Defender can put them in Koiogran Alley and take them apart. The X-Wing doesn't even offer that opportunity for opponent error - it just jousts, passes through the enemy formation at (slow) speed and turns around to joust again. Repeat until one list has run out of ships (probably yours).

This is kind of why a simple cost reduction (allowing more X Wings on the table and/or additional complementary jousters, like Zs) and/or an upgrade to the hull would work fine: it would make the X better at what it aims to accomplish.

A fighter isn't the same class of ship as a bomber.

So I see in this thread a lot of discussion comparing the Xwing and Bwing. If the Bwing is better than the Xwing at what you see as the Xwing's role and they buff the Xwing, how many Bwings will people use?

I think it depends on the nature of the buff. The key is to buff the X-Wing in such a way that it (hopefully) makes it stand apart from the B-Wing somehow. The astromech slot is one key way the ships already differ, and there are a lot of good astromechs.

Then again, there are so many good named X-Wing pilots, maybe a simple buff to the ship itself is all that will be needed (similar to the TIE Interceptor). It's hard to say.

The nice thing about the astromech buff is that, if done right (IE., focusing more on the generic pilots, rather than the probably-okay-for-their-points named pilots), it can help the Y-Wings and E-Wings, too.

Ages ago, I'd proposed something like:

R1 Flight Computer Droid

Upgrade Type: Astromech

Cost: -2

This upgrade reduces ship cost. When performing any maneuver that would generate a stress token, instead assign two stress tokens to the ship instead of one.

...*bam*. Now you can run five Rookies, or six Golds, or four Knaves. It's true, the fighter has a big millstone hung around its neck for the long-game...but their jousting ability is completely unaffected.

(Plus, we will then almost always see a fighter with SOME astromech in it. Pet peeve: how many times in all of the movies did we see an X-Wing or Y-Wing without an astromech droid? Answer: none. None times. How many times do X-Wings or Y-Wings run around in this game without an astromech equipped? Pretty much all the time. Nononononono....)

A fighter isn't the same class of ship as a bomber.

So I see in this thread a lot of discussion comparing the Xwing and Bwing. If the Bwing is better than the Xwing at what you see as the Xwing's role and they buff the Xwing, how many Bwings will people use?

B-wings currently outnumber X-wings about 2:1. The flip side of what you're saying now is that's okay, that's desirable, and ffg shouldn't do anything to affect that.

Oh I have no doubt that an Xwing buff is coming, they'll definitely use it to help sell another product SKU. I'm just not sure what was needed.

It was. It doesn't need to be a big fix, but it is needed.

Possibly the K-wing too, TBD

I would be a bit surprised if Miranda wasn't cost-effective (I suppose it depends on the dial)

It'll really depend on how effective the PS8 can be at using Ordnance or dropping bombs better than anything else in the game can drop bombs. Straight-up jousting efficiency is startlingly low. Some of that is accounted for with a turret, but you're still being discouraged from using its primary attack - maybe the new turret in there will fit well, don't know. Still TBD.

Then what will be done to buff the Bwing?

Then what will be done to buff the Bwing?

Who said it needs a buff?

You know what I wanted orginally for the Xwing? An electronic warfare version like the EA-18g Growler version of the F-18. The Ewing can take systems so I want to use for that role now.

SLAM on K-wing could make the thing usable, but it has some timing issues. We'll have to see what kinds of tricks players can come up with.

Then what will be done to buff the Bwing?

Who said it needs a buff?

Then what will be done to buff the Bwing?

Are you actually reading what other people are saying? Or are you simply trying and I might add failing to make a point here?

Seeing how people use the B-Wing twice as often, there's no need to buff it, because even if the X-Wing was on par with it that would simply even them out.

People would still use the B-Wing because it offers things the X-Wing wouldn't.

As far as a Astromech fix, that's IMO the worse way to fix it. Because then you're adding the opportunity cost of the loss slot to it, which with a 2-3 point discount makes the X-Wing still overpriced.

Then what will be done to buff the Bwing?

Who said it needs a buff?

Well after the Xwing gets its buff and people use it instead of Bwings, who will save the poor Bwing?

And who says that is going to happen?

Then what will be done to buff the Bwing?

Why would it be so bad if the X-Wing was slightly better than the B-Wing? The X-Wing is much beloved by many fans as the ship that Luke Skywalker blew up the Death Star in, that Yoda lifted out of the swamp to teach Luke about the Force, and that Wedge flew into the core of the second Death Star to protect the Falcon. The X-Wing is so beloved that the game's creators knew it would be a good idea to name their game after it.

The B-Wing was only in one movie, and it was just kind of there. So why does it deserve to be better than the beloved X-Wing?

As far as a Astromech fix, that's IMO the worse way to fix it. Because then you're adding the opportunity cost of the loss slot to it, which with a 2-3 point discount makes the X-Wing still overpriced.

The -2 astromech is a pretty big discount.

I mean, it's pretty well established that BBBBZ is a brute of a list.

Would you really argue that an XXXXX list is not a better choice? Or, at least, as good? Or a YYYYYY? Or EEEE? (Or, for fun, EEYYY)?

Then what will be done to buff the Bwing?

Who said it needs a buff?

Well after the Xwing gets its buff and people use it instead of Bwings, who will save the poor Bwing?

Do you have anything to actually contribute aside from snide cynicism?

You know what I wanted orginally for the Xwing? An electronic warfare version like the EA-18g Growler version of the F-18. The Ewing can take systems so I want to use for that role now.

It would be interesting to see them release a systems upgrade card (perhaps restricted to the E-Wing) that gave it the Jam action.

I guess the big debate is does the x-wing need more value, more utility or both?

Maybe the people that don't want to see a buff for the X-Wing are just afraid of change? The X-Wing has been a mediocre ship for so long, maybe it's scary for some people to think that it could possibly become a competitive ship.

Then what will be done to buff the Bwing?

Are you actually reading what other people are saying? Or are you simply trying and I might add failing to make a point here?Seeing how people use the B-Wing twice as often, there's no need to buff it, because even if the X-Wing was on par with it that would simply even them out.People would still use the B-Wing because it offers things the X-Wing wouldn't.As far as a Astromech fix, that's IMO the worse way to fix it. Because then you're adding the opportunity cost of the loss slot to it, which with a 2-3 point discount makes the X-Wing still overpriced.

I use Xwings so any buff would help me since I buy everything they sell but I just didn't see it as critical to the game.

I don't think a -2 astromech would leave the ship overpriced terribly, but it would really deter other choices for astromechs. How many pilots would take R2 astros for a point when they can replace it with a -2 point astro?

You get what you see with a-wings: reluctant to take proton rockets, which can be a good value, simply because the opportunity cost is getting your ship discount it needs to justify placing on the table.

I don't think a -2 astromech would leave the ship overpriced terribly, but it would really deter other choices for astromechs. How many pilots would take R2 astros for a point when they can replace it with a -2 point astro?

You get what you see with a-wings: reluctant to take proton rockets, which can be a good value, simply because the opportunity cost is getting your ship discount it needs to justify placing on the table.

Sure, but the idea would be to offset it with a disadvantage for certain play styles - unlike Chardaan, which is just a flat 'here's a discount if you don't plan to use missiles', this would be an outright penalty.

In the proposed case, getting double-stressed whenever you do a red maneuver.

For a player planning on a joust, or using the X-Wings as pure flankers, that's no real disadvantage at all. But it doesn't completely negate the 1-point R2 for players that plan on using the X-Wings with more aggressive maneuvers that might need to shed stress faster - if you are taking a pilot with a Talent and bringing along Push the Limit or something where you are going to be interested in better ways to shed stress...and specifically NOT piling it up...then the R2 makes a lot more sense than the R1 droid, even at a delta of 3 points difference in cost.

Then what will be done to buff the Bwing?

Who said it needs a buff?

Well after the Xwing gets its buff and people use it instead of Bwings, who will save the poor Bwing?

Do you have anything to actually contribute aside from snide cynicism?

I'm in the camp that says the X-Wing is fine the way it's designed and is just paying too much points. I like it as a straightforward ship that is very approachable to newer players.

However, I doubt that FFG will give it just a straight points decrease, they seem to find that to be an inelegant method since they haven't done it since Chardaan Refit. I'm that they give it a points decrease title with an extra perk that is mostly meaningless, so that it doesn't look like they're just giving it a straight points decrease.

T-70 model: -1 point, your upgrade bar gains an additional Torpedo upgrade icon.

And then they can package 2 of them with the new EP VII that they will be releasing around the same time as the movie (fingers crossed)

I'm in the camp that says the X-Wing is fine the way it's designed and is just paying too much points. I like it as a straightforward ship that is very approachable to newer players.

However, I doubt that FFG will give it just a straight points decrease, they seem to find that to be an inelegant method since they haven't done it since Chardaan Refit. I'm that they give it a points decrease title with an extra perk that is mostly meaningless, so that it doesn't look like they're just giving it a straight points decrease.

T-70 model: -1 point, your upgrade bar gains an additional Torpedo upgrade icon.

And then they can package 2 of them with the new EP VII that they will be releasing around the same time as the movie (fingers crossed)

Hot Pot of Coffee that looks good!