The X-Wing's "problems" stem from the fact that it's an average ship with baseline performance. I don't see a problem with this, however if you wanted to buff it without going overboard, give it a title that gives it free Experimental Interface an extra EPT slot. That way you can take Expert Handling and can use EI to proc it.

I think this is the issue. The X Wing in the fluff was not an 'average' ship. Its performance and overall package was remarkable for what it was. Nearly as fast and nearly as manoeuverable as a TIE Fighter with much better protection and firepower, a hyperdrive, coffee machine and built in massage chair for those long hyperspace journeys (totally legit I researched it). It was remarkable for what it combined in one package. It was anything BUT average. It became the baseline ship of the rebel alliance for precisely that reason. That and the fact that the design team stole the documents and gave them to the rebels... Maybe that had something to do with it.

The X WIng is symbolic of everything that the rebels stood for because of its association with the movies and the whole franchise. As such the X Wing for many people on this board (and SW fans in general) is Star Wars. Its also the ship the game is named after.

That said whether you believe it or not, the heart of this matter is that the X Wing doesn't carry anything like this 'weight' in the game. Its lackluster for its points. Not awful, but as has been stated the B Wing, which should fill a different fleet role, steals the X Wings thunder in just about every respect. More hull, same firepower, similar dial with some key advantages. Better action bar and far better customization options. All this for only one point more.

Mathwing puts the X at about 2 points (1.5 but you dont have half points) below its ideal position. Making the X Wing about 2 points better is a tricky improvement to balance. Im sure FFG will do a great job. But it doesnt stop us having fun talking about it in the meantime.

Sounds like the Bwing needs a nerf more than anything. But that's still not going to satisfy Xwing fanboys, which before your post, I was unaware of. I always thought the hard core rebel fluffers were fans of the Ewings and other exotic birds.

If the b wing didn't exist wed be pointing at btl y wings and z95 pairs for how bad the x wing is when compared to the rebel fleet. And if all of those ships were overcosted or didn't exist we'd compare it to the tie fighter and the rebels wouldn't play anything but turrets.

It didn't take a Bwing nerf for this to happen.

But the bottom line to this whole argument was summed up pages ago by Marinealiver when he list the few ships that actually matter in the meta. Fact is, that's ALWAYS how it's going to be. I'm ecstatic about the incoming fix for the Tie Adv. but I'm not confident that the changes will make it into a championship contender. Not the generic anyway.

It's like the guys at FFG never read "Game Design for Dummies". MiniMax is literally chapter one (or two but it's very early). They most likely gave the ship a break on the strength of its dial which is actually pretty decent when you consider that it doesn't have to do jack for maneuvering except slow roll and wait for the oppoenet to fly into his killbox.

I don't know what your point is, but the Bwing does exist and it may just be the prevailing ship for years to come as the designers try to sort out the ****storm they created with A3 turrets and Phantoms.

I was just trying to illustrate that the b wing was not the issue with the x wing. I cam definitely agree with you that there are ships that are much more playable than others right now.

Back when I used to play magic Mark Rosewater would periodically write articles about bad cards and thier importance to the game, especially in how they highlight good cards. There will always be bad ships or limited ships in x wing. The point I'm trying to make is as follows. Based off the criteria ffg has appeared to layout and off their interviews the x wing in its current state is comparable to other ships that received buffs in thier pre buff state.

I will go one step further, I think it would be healthy for the game to buff the x wing from where it stands. I don't think ita the end of the world if certain cards on certain ships don't see play. I'm ok that corran horn is the only e wing worth running. I was ok pre rebel aces that b wing saw dramatically more use as blues and daggers with a sensor slot filled, although I do think that the e2 added alot to the game. I'm ok that tie bombers don't see a ton of play. I have a problem with the ship the game was named after, a space superiority fighter and much like how the advanced was totally unpleasant.

I can agree with this.

The generic Xwings are pants compared to the named guys. Generic Bwings aren't much of a hoot either. Would the Xwing be more enjoyable if you could fit five of them in a list? I'm asking genuinely now that the PS bid isn't that big of a deal.

So. hows the thread going? Anyone get mighty angry yet?

Have we all agreed on the useless of math and reason yet?

Has fun become the good excuse for all bad ships?

Did you guys design the Star Destroyer expansion yet?

I know someone already made off topic food comments.

Are we all slaves to the HIVE MIND YET. EVERY OMNIPRESENT AND DANGEROUS?

What about the meta? Did that grow fangs yet?

Apparently I can't type.

So, if we can all agree that the X-wing is about 1.5 points too expensive, why can't we just make it cheaper? I know it's boring but it's simple and works with all existing pilots and upgrades.

When I think about the X wing I think back to the first computer game I ever played. X Wing vs TIE Fighter.

So, the X Wing had more firepower and less speed than an A Wing. Check.

It had more speed and maneuverability than a Y Wing. Kinda check.

There were no B Wings but my understanding of the purpose of the B Wing (in the lore) was as a replacement for the Y Wing, that didn't quite work out due to malfunction frequency and difficult handling. I think the B Wing encroaches on the role of the X Wing as an all-round fighter, and something needs to be done about it. I think making it Agility 2 and Firepower 2 would be OK.

But that's irrelevant. Personally, I think the X Wing is in a good place, ruleswise. It sits firmly between the A Wing as a nimble interceptor that lacks firepower and the Y Wing as a bomber that lacks speed and maneuverability. The X Wing performs well in any role you choose for it.

It's just too expensive.

Expensive? Nah, just realize the original designers made it 21 points to prevent five being used in a single squad.

It still is the benchmark you compare all other fighters to.

with extra munitions torps might make a re-entry for the X-wing. It also has some great astromechs and pilots, some of which have not been given enough of a chance but just calculated of the table.

The X-wing is a solid design. I would surely not say no to some extra cards, a re-paint and some more pilots, but overall it deserves a lot more credit.

with extra munitions torps might make a re-entry for the X-wing. It also has some great astromechs and pilots, some of which have not been given enough of a chance but just calculated of the table.

Sadly extra munitions won't help, it equips to one of your torpedo upgrade slots and boosts torpedoes, missiles and bombs equipped in other slots. It'll work for the Y-wing and B-wing and especially well on the Tie Bomber, but the X-wing and E-wing are out of luck in this case.

So. hows the thread going? Anyone get mighty angry yet?

Have we all agreed on the useless of math and reason yet?

Has fun become the good excuse for all bad ships?

Did you guys design the Star Destroyer expansion yet?

I know someone already made off topic food comments.

Are we all slaves to the HIVE MIND YET. EVERY OMNIPRESENT AND DANGEROUS?

What about the meta? Did that grow fangs yet?

It is fine to think that the most iconic ship in this game (hence the NAME of the game) is OK.

Just know you are wrong.

(as shown by math and data. You'd be stupid to dismiss that. Feel free to try and disprove it though. Looking forward to well thought out arguments.)

It is fine to think that the most iconic ship in this game (hence the NAME of the game) is OK.

Just know you are wrong.

(as shown by math and data. You'd be stupid to dismiss that. Feel free to try and disprove it though. Looking forward to well thought out arguments.)

Not upset. But amazed.

Feel free to enjoy the X-Wing.

But what amazes me that (despite math/data/statements by game designers) you cling to your "X-Wing is fine" idea.

Suppose the X-wing gets a (smallish hopefully; I think it does nto meed much. but it needs *something*) buff; will you enjoy the game/ship less?

If not; why are you arguing?

I addressed that already.

I like the cookie dough ice cream at Baskin Robbins. You can point to all kinds of data that shows it's not among the most popular flavors. You might want it changed so it's more popular but I'm okay with it the way it is. I'm therefore stupid to ignore your data and should be required to change my opinion?

You are not required to agree with math and/or data and/or games designers.

Feel free and live in your bubble where X-Wings are fine.

Math / Science isn't about "liking" something...it's about facts.

the X-wing needs a bump to be better...maybe not much of one bu they need SOMETHING.

maybe a "Rogue" title that gives them boost or evade. Maybe something that helps them shoot first...I don't know.

My only complaint with the xwing is the model compared to the tie fighter. The tie fighter is frakkin huge when on thr table next to the baby xwing...

Expensive? Nah, just realize the original designers made it 21 points to prevent five being used in a single squad.

Has anyone ever flown 5 X-wings in a house rule and observed if it's too overpowered? I'm not sure what's so terrifying about it.

You are not required to agree with math and/or data and/or games designers.

Feel free and live in your bubble where X-Wings are fine.

Yeah. It's definitely an improvement on 4 Xs. The extra 5 pts taken from the other player isn't really noticeable, but then you're only increasing each X Wings efficiency by just under 5% for 5 Xs in 100 points (effectively just discounting a rookie to 20 points). The math wing identified gap is about a 7.5% increase (1.5 points). A 2 point discount by comparison gives you about 9.5% boost.

These are small margins, but adding the extra ship makes a difference, in red dice especially. The 5X list hits harder by a significant margin. It doesn't make individual x wings any more surviveable (5 hp and 2 greens still doesn't last long), but they are only a fighter after all. I don't think cheaper x wings feel OP in the circumstances I have played. It depends on your list I guess; too many variables to say whether the X at a blanket -1 or -2 points is OP against every possible list.

Question of whether a blanket discount would be fair with all x wings. Biggs at 23 points and Wedge at 27 for example. I don't see that big an issue with it, but more detailed analysis might say different. I'm not a math whiz.

I'm sorry it angers you so much, I really am. If it's any consolation I haven't written to FFG trying to convince them not to change the Xwing. Does that make you feel better? Can't someone feel their ice cream is fine without you banging on the glass with the Book of Advanced Ice Cream Statistical Metrics showing that it's not as popular as chocolate or rocky road?

Not sure where you fantasize my anger from really.

And nope. Zero f**ks are given about you writing letters to ffg or not.

And for the last time; yes; you can 'feel' the X-wing is fine. Even if your feelings betray you.

There is a silver-lining, at least, that even if the Xwings in X-wing never see the light of day, the X-wings in Armada are pretty dang solid

Expensive? Nah, just realize the original designers made it 21 points to prevent five being used in a single squad.

Has anyone ever flown 5 X-wings in a house rule and observed if it's too overpowered? I'm not sure what's so terrifying about it.

FFG doesn't like that many 3+ damage sources in a 100 pt game; the overall red die pool for 5 X Wings isn't really very impressive (15 dice), but it's a maximum of 3 per attack. That's a big deal when shooting at targets with low agility values.

If 5 X lists were possible, I think they would be at least as over-represented in the meta as BBBBZ currently is.

Expensive? Nah, just realize the original designers made it 21 points to prevent five being used in a single squad.

Has anyone ever flown 5 X-wings in a house rule and observed if it's too overpowered? I'm not sure what's so terrifying about it.

FFG doesn't like that many 3+ damage sources in a 100 pt game; the overall red die pool for 5 X Wings isn't really very impressive (15 dice), but it's a maximum of 3 per attack. That's a big deal when shooting at targets with low agility values.

If 5 X lists were possible, I think they would be at least as over-represented in the meta as BBBBZ currently is.

Havent heard of any FFG statement saying that they dont want that many 3 dice ships. Where does that come from?

Also, you can get 5 interceptors (alphas) in 100. 5 Xs wouldnt be the first list to be able to do it. And 4 ship lists with 12+ red dice are easily possible. I dont see it as a stretch.

OK, but you still haven't explained how 3/8 x 8 = 3 doesn't apply conceptionally.

The X-wing does catch up eventually, but the likelihood of surviving that long is extremely rare. Here's a couple pictures that I just whipped up to illustrate.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_FtpUvAFB8peTF2WU1rNVJXT1U/view?usp=sharinghttps://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_FtpUvAFB8pR0N1QTl3VW9pQkE/view?usp=sharing

The X-wing catches up at 9 hits, but you're talking a 98.15% chance of being dead (B-wing) vs 97.95% chance of being dead (X-wing).

I would like to understand, but you still haven't explained it. I see how the X-Wing catches up after 9 hits in your chart, but you haven't explained how your chart deviates from the simple application of 3/8 x 8 = 3.

The short version is that if you roll 8 defense dice you might come up with 3 evades--that's the most likely result, anyway, and ththe average. But 37% of the time it'll be less (0-2 evades), and 35% of the time it'll be more (4-8 evades). And if you throw attack dice in there, too, there's even more variation in the result of an attack against a B-wing.

So if you want to know how long a ship will survive, you have to go deeper than just looking at the average result.

How can 2 evade dice give you a chance > 0 for 4-8 evades?

For the X-Wing, I think it should be 39% 0 evades, 47% 1 evade, 14% 2 evades. For the B-Wing, it would be 62.5% for 0 evades and 37.5% for 1 evade. I want to understand this system, but, despite the fact that I dropped out of high school, I'm starting to suspect it's flawed.

Edit: My math was flawed at first, but I think I righted it.

I think people cling to the jousting numbers far too much. Jousting values don't really hold up and proof of that is the completely absent Defender from competitive play (the best jouster in the game can K-turn and joust all day long). I thought I would point out something though, since there have been many new players to the game that have never experienced X-Wing prior to wave 4.

In 2013, Paul Heaver won the Worlds tournament with 2 generic X-Wings. At the time, that was wave 3, which excluded S&V (nothing there threatens the quality of the X-Wing), Decimators (great in every respect), YT-2400 (only Dash), Phantoms (most feared since the TIE swarm), Z-95's (excellent Rebel filler), Defenders (also not popular), and the E-Wing (also not popular). Out of the list of things that are successful since then, only IG-88, Decimator, Dash, and the Z-95 are any real competitor to quality, half of those can't be flown by rebels anyway.

This game has changed a lot since 2012, especially in the options available and play styles played. Every new product released is an opportunity to re-evaluate existing products for their viability. Most people suffer from Cult of the New, and that leaves a huge opportunity for surprise.

I think people cling to the jousting numbers far too much. Jousting values don't really hold up and proof of that is the completely absent Defender from competitive play (the best jouster in the game can K-turn and joust all day long). I thought I would point out something though, since there have been many new players to the game that have never experienced X-Wing prior to wave 4.

In 2013, Paul Heaver won the Worlds tournament with 2 generic X-Wings. At the time, that was wave 3, which excluded S&V (nothing there threatens the quality of the X-Wing), Decimators (great in every respect), YT-2400 (only Dash), Phantoms (most feared since the TIE swarm), Z-95's (excellent Rebel filler), Defenders (also not popular), and the E-Wing (also not popular). Out of the list of things that are successful since then, only IG-88, Decimator, Dash, and the Z-95 are any real competitor to quality, half of those can't be flown by rebels anyway.

This game has changed a lot since 2012, especially in the options available and play styles played. Every new product released is an opportunity to re-evaluate existing products for their viability. Most people suffer from Cult of the New, and that leaves a huge opportunity for surprise.

He only ran one rookie, the other was Biggs and the rebel options for ships at 21 points were pretty bad at the time. In fact all of the ships available at that to.e for 21 points or less have gotten buffs in the interim