the x-wing has fallen off the radar, especially the generic rookie pilot and red squadron pilots. even Biggs is rarely seen at tournaments these days. power creep has changed the game forever. i think the A-Wing is seeing more play these days than the x-wing.

wonder how XXXXZ would go in a large tourney? probably not as well as BBBBZ. my vote is for an X-Wing buff.

The X-Wing's "problems" stem from the fact that it's an average ship with baseline performance. I don't see a problem with this, however if you wanted to buff it without going overboard, give it a title that gives it free Experimental Interface an extra EPT slot. That way you can take Expert Handling and can use EI to proc it.

I think this is the issue. The X Wing in the fluff was not an 'average' ship. Its performance and overall package was remarkable for what it was. Nearly as fast and nearly as manoeuverable as a TIE Fighter with much better protection and firepower, a hyperdrive, coffee machine and built in massage chair for those long hyperspace journeys (totally legit I researched it). It was remarkable for what it combined in one package. It was anything BUT average. It became the baseline ship of the rebel alliance for precisely that reason. That and the fact that the design team stole the documents and gave them to the rebels... Maybe that had something to do with it.

The X WIng is symbolic of everything that the rebels stood for because of its association with the movies and the whole franchise. As such the X Wing for many people on this board (and SW fans in general) is Star Wars. Its also the ship the game is named after.

That said whether you believe it or not, the heart of this matter is that the X Wing doesn't carry anything like this 'weight' in the game. Its lackluster for its points. Not awful, but as has been stated the B Wing, which should fill a different fleet role, steals the X Wings thunder in just about every respect. More hull, same firepower, similar dial with some key advantages. Better action bar and far better customization options. All this for only one point more.

Mathwing puts the X at about 2 points (1.5 but you dont have half points) below its ideal position. Making the X Wing about 2 points better is a tricky improvement to balance. Im sure FFG will do a great job. But it doesnt stop us having fun talking about it in the meantime.

Sounds like the Bwing needs a nerf more than anything. But that's still not going to satisfy Xwing fanboys, which before your post, I was unaware of. I always thought the hard core rebel fluffers were fans of the Ewings and other exotic birds.

Now I'm not a big fan of the fluff, but I know from playing thousands of hours of Tie Fighter that your average Tie pilot can duff Xwings as easy as Tiger Woods can hit a hole in one at the Playboy mansion. Just because the ship is iconic doesn't imbue it with magical, nigh indestructible qualities. Your bog standard rifleman was an Iconic symbol of British military strength in WWI but they died like dogs while charging machine gun nests.

I can rally behind the argument that the ship needs a title card to give it some relevance in the new meta, but I really think that going beyond that is inappropriate. And will such a fix actually increase the X's utility? The Awing got a slew of buffs but I still don't see people jamming their lists full of them.

The most likely fix for the Xwing (if you even acknowledge that it's broken) is for FFG to continue to release new pilots with pilot abilities that directly address all the complaints from the fboys.

Regardless of what FFG choose to do to help the X-Wing get more table time, I hope it will not be boring like the Chardaan Refit or simply adding a hull, but something more colorful like the Tie/X1 title. The iconic X-Wing deserve a colorful boost. So I hope they take their time to make it right and be creative about it, not just tag a little fix just to satisfy the community crying for a fix.

Until then, I'm very curious to see the rest of the Kirhaxz; cost of the generic and dial. The stats and action bar are so similar to those of the X-Wing that once we see how they priced the Kirhax, we'll know what's the position of FFG regarding the X-Wing value. If the dial is similar and they costed the generic at 20pts, don't put your hopes too high for the X-Wing eventual nudge. If they costed it at 18 pts, then you can expect something big coming for it. So, to all those expecting a X-Wing ''fix'', look closely to the Kirhaxz.

The X-Wing's "problems" stem from the fact that it's an average ship with baseline performance. I don't see a problem with this, however if you wanted to buff it without going overboard, give it a title that gives it free Experimental Interface an extra EPT slot. That way you can take Expert Handling and can use EI to proc it.

I think this is the issue. The X Wing in the fluff was not an 'average' ship. Its performance and overall package was remarkable for what it was. Nearly as fast and nearly as manoeuverable as a TIE Fighter with much better protection and firepower, a hyperdrive, coffee machine and built in massage chair for those long hyperspace journeys (totally legit I researched it). It was remarkable for what it combined in one package. It was anything BUT average. It became the baseline ship of the rebel alliance for precisely that reason. That and the fact that the design team stole the documents and gave them to the rebels... Maybe that had something to do with it.

The X WIng is symbolic of everything that the rebels stood for because of its association with the movies and the whole franchise. As such the X Wing for many people on this board (and SW fans in general) is Star Wars. Its also the ship the game is named after.

That said whether you believe it or not, the heart of this matter is that the X Wing doesn't carry anything like this 'weight' in the game. Its lackluster for its points. Not awful, but as has been stated the B Wing, which should fill a different fleet role, steals the X Wings thunder in just about every respect. More hull, same firepower, similar dial with some key advantages. Better action bar and far better customization options. All this for only one point more.

Mathwing puts the X at about 2 points (1.5 but you dont have half points) below its ideal position. Making the X Wing about 2 points better is a tricky improvement to balance. Im sure FFG will do a great job. But it doesnt stop us having fun talking about it in the meantime.

Sounds like the Bwing needs a nerf more than anything. But that's still not going to satisfy Xwing fanboys, which before your post, I was unaware of. I always thought the hard core rebel fluffers were fans of the Ewings and other exotic birds.

Now I'm not a big fan of the fluff, but I know from playing thousands of hours of Tie Fighter that your average Tie pilot can duff Xwings as easy as Tiger Woods can hit a hole in one at the Playboy mansion. Just because the ship is iconic doesn't imbue it with magical, nigh indestructible qualities. Your bog standard rifleman was an Iconic symbol of British military strength in WWI but they died like dogs while charging machine gun nests.

I can rally behind the argument that the ship needs a title card to give it some relevance in the new meta, but I really think that going beyond that is inappropriate. And will such a fix actually increase the X's utility? The Awing got a slew of buffs but I still don't see people jamming their lists full of them.

The most likely fix for the Xwing (if you even acknowledge that it's broken) is for FFG to continue to release new pilots with pilot abilities that directly address all the complaints from the fboys.

No one is arguing for nigh indestructible anything. If the TIE fighter in this game had buckets of hull and shields and was slow and ponderous then no one would be happy. Why? Because that isnt how the TIE was envisioned or portrayed in the fluff. Why should it be any different with any other ship. If the X Wing in the fluff was envisioned as something because its creators wanted it that way, then the X Wing in this game should represent some of that.

As for the B Wing, its points efficient as it is. The X is in the wrong place for its cost. That argument has been made repeatedly.

If you played any of the X Wing pc games, you duffed TIE pilots at the same rate. Which is supposed to be better evidence? The pc games were there for telling a story, which would suffer if you werent outwitting the cloud of 1s and 0s that you were playing against. I dont think thats the same as out-thinking a live opponent in a game which suffers if there is not a reasonable balance of cost effectiveness with ALL available units.

The fact that the X Wing is one of the most iconic ships in the fluff makes this more complicated and draws attention to it - perhaps more than it should. But it doesnt change the fact that the X is not performing to its cost.

Eight attacks equals three health. If the X-Wing and B-Wing are expected to be attacked eight times per match, the shield/evade difference is a wash. If they're attacked less, the advantage goes to the B-Wing. Nine or more times favors the X-Wing.

Statistically incorrect, the B-wing still has a higher survival chance. I have the probability density functions for expected number of rounds to kill each, but only returned the final mean results for the Mathwing thread.

How? An evade die is 3/8 effective.

Eight attacks equals three health. If the X-Wing and B-Wing are expected to be attacked eight times per match, the shield/evade difference is a wash. If they're attacked less, the advantage goes to the B-Wing. Nine or more times favors the X-Wing.

Statistically incorrect, the B-wing still has a higher survival chance. I have the probability density functions for expected number of rounds to kill each, but only returned the final mean results for the Mathwing thread.

How? An evade die is 3/8 effective.

Not when I roll them. More like 0/8 effective

Eight attacks equals three health. If the X-Wing and B-Wing are expected to be attacked eight times per match, the shield/evade difference is a wash. If they're attacked less, the advantage goes to the B-Wing. Nine or more times favors the X-Wing.

Statistically incorrect, the B-wing still has a higher survival chance. I have the probability density functions for expected number of rounds to kill each, but only returned the final mean results for the Mathwing thread.

How? An evade die is 3/8 effective.

Extensive math. The methodology is here: https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/128417-mathwing-comprehensive-ship-jousting-values-and-more/

I'll probably make a big "MathWing: Durability thread" someday.

Can you just dumb it down for the layman? 3/8 x 8 = 3.

The X-Wing's "problems" stem from the fact that it's an average ship with baseline performance. I don't see a problem with this, however if you wanted to buff it without going overboard, give it a title that gives it free Experimental Interface an extra EPT slot. That way you can take Expert Handling and can use EI to proc it.

I think this is the issue. The X Wing in the fluff was not an 'average' ship. Its performance and overall package was remarkable for what it was. Nearly as fast and nearly as manoeuverable as a TIE Fighter with much better protection and firepower, a hyperdrive, coffee machine and built in massage chair for those long hyperspace journeys (totally legit I researched it). It was remarkable for what it combined in one package. It was anything BUT average. It became the baseline ship of the rebel alliance for precisely that reason. That and the fact that the design team stole the documents and gave them to the rebels... Maybe that had something to do with it.

The X WIng is symbolic of everything that the rebels stood for because of its association with the movies and the whole franchise. As such the X Wing for many people on this board (and SW fans in general) is Star Wars. Its also the ship the game is named after.

That said whether you believe it or not, the heart of this matter is that the X Wing doesn't carry anything like this 'weight' in the game. Its lackluster for its points. Not awful, but as has been stated the B Wing, which should fill a different fleet role, steals the X Wings thunder in just about every respect. More hull, same firepower, similar dial with some key advantages. Better action bar and far better customization options. All this for only one point more.

Mathwing puts the X at about 2 points (1.5 but you dont have half points) below its ideal position. Making the X Wing about 2 points better is a tricky improvement to balance. Im sure FFG will do a great job. But it doesnt stop us having fun talking about it in the meantime.

Sounds like the Bwing needs a nerf more than anything. But that's still not going to satisfy Xwing fanboys, which before your post, I was unaware of. I always thought the hard core rebel fluffers were fans of the Ewings and other exotic birds.

Now I'm not a big fan of the fluff, but I know from playing thousands of hours of Tie Fighter that your average Tie pilot can duff Xwings as easy as Tiger Woods can hit a hole in one at the Playboy mansion. Just because the ship is iconic doesn't imbue it with magical, nigh indestructible qualities. Your bog standard rifleman was an Iconic symbol of British military strength in WWI but they died like dogs while charging machine gun nests.

I can rally behind the argument that the ship needs a title card to give it some relevance in the new meta, but I really think that going beyond that is inappropriate. And will such a fix actually increase the X's utility? The Awing got a slew of buffs but I still don't see people jamming their lists full of them.

The most likely fix for the Xwing (if you even acknowledge that it's broken) is for FFG to continue to release new pilots with pilot abilities that directly address all the complaints from the fboys.

No one is arguing for nigh indestructible anything. If the TIE fighter in this game had buckets of hull and shields and was slow and ponderous then no one would be happy. Why? Because that isnt how the TIE was envisioned or portrayed in the fluff. Why should it be any different with any other ship. If the X Wing in the fluff was envisioned as something because its creators wanted it that way, then the X Wing in this game should represent some of that.

As for the B Wing, its points efficient as it is. The X is in the wrong place for its cost. That argument has been made repeatedly.

If you played any of the X Wing pc games, you duffed TIE pilots at the same rate. Which is supposed to be better evidence? The pc games were there for telling a story, which would suffer if you werent outwitting the cloud of 1s and 0s that you were playing against. I dont think thats the same as out-thinking a live opponent in a game which suffers if there is not a reasonable balance of cost effectiveness with ALL available units.

The fact that the X Wing is one of the most iconic ships in the fluff makes this more complicated and draws attention to it - perhaps more than it should. But it doesnt change the fact that the X is not performing to its cost.

The X-wing is overcosted. I get it.

Lots of stuff in the game is, iconic or not. And being iconic is not nor should it be a factor in determining its efficacy. Do you think the guys that designed Flames of War made the Sherman more buff than the Tiger?

Give it its point reduction. Squeeze in barrel roll (because it's thematic) and let it be.

Or FFG can release more pilots with cool abilities. I bet that if 3-4 more powerful pilots were introduced in discounted rigs these threads would be very uncommon.

Or FFG can release more pilots with cool abilities. I bet that if 3-4 more powerful pilots were introduced in discounted rigs these threads would be very uncommon.

On almost any other craft, I could get around just making some more pilots with cool abilities and be done with it. But with the X-Wing, we are talking about Luke and Wedge. You want to keep those two most iconic pilots relevant and not be shadowed by the stunt guy that we hardly see in the movies. That would be like making a new pilot for the Falcon, but better than Han. I understand that for some the competitive aspect of the game is all that matter, but please, show a little respect for the lore.

They got that part right with the Tie Advanced: the Sith Lord will be one of the most feared pilot in the game once we get the Tie Advanced title, instead of just being that crazy guy that blow up his own shuttle. A threat in the competitive environment while still being faithful to the lore. Win-Win.

The X-Wing's "problems" stem from the fact that it's an average ship with baseline performance. I don't see a problem with this, however if you wanted to buff it without going overboard, give it a title that gives it free Experimental Interface an extra EPT slot. That way you can take Expert Handling and can use EI to proc it.

I think this is the issue. The X Wing in the fluff was not an 'average' ship. Its performance and overall package was remarkable for what it was. Nearly as fast and nearly as manoeuverable as a TIE Fighter with much better protection and firepower, a hyperdrive, coffee machine and built in massage chair for those long hyperspace journeys (totally legit I researched it). It was remarkable for what it combined in one package. It was anything BUT average. It became the baseline ship of the rebel alliance for precisely that reason. That and the fact that the design team stole the documents and gave them to the rebels... Maybe that had something to do with it.

The X WIng is symbolic of everything that the rebels stood for because of its association with the movies and the whole franchise. As such the X Wing for many people on this board (and SW fans in general) is Star Wars. Its also the ship the game is named after.

That said whether you believe it or not, the heart of this matter is that the X Wing doesn't carry anything like this 'weight' in the game. Its lackluster for its points. Not awful, but as has been stated the B Wing, which should fill a different fleet role, steals the X Wings thunder in just about every respect. More hull, same firepower, similar dial with some key advantages. Better action bar and far better customization options. All this for only one point more.

Mathwing puts the X at about 2 points (1.5 but you dont have half points) below its ideal position. Making the X Wing about 2 points better is a tricky improvement to balance. Im sure FFG will do a great job. But it doesnt stop us having fun talking about it in the meantime.

Sounds like the Bwing needs a nerf more than anything. But that's still not going to satisfy Xwing fanboys, which before your post, I was unaware of. I always thought the hard core rebel fluffers were fans of the Ewings and other exotic birds.

The X-Wing's "problems" stem from the fact that it's an average ship with baseline performance. I don't see a problem with this, however if you wanted to buff it without going overboard, give it a title that gives it free Experimental Interface an extra EPT slot. That way you can take Expert Handling and can use EI to proc it.

I think this is the issue. The X Wing in the fluff was not an 'average' ship. Its performance and overall package was remarkable for what it was. Nearly as fast and nearly as manoeuverable as a TIE Fighter with much better protection and firepower, a hyperdrive, coffee machine and built in massage chair for those long hyperspace journeys (totally legit I researched it). It was remarkable for what it combined in one package. It was anything BUT average. It became the baseline ship of the rebel alliance for precisely that reason. That and the fact that the design team stole the documents and gave them to the rebels... Maybe that had something to do with it.

The X WIng is symbolic of everything that the rebels stood for because of its association with the movies and the whole franchise. As such the X Wing for many people on this board (and SW fans in general) is Star Wars. Its also the ship the game is named after.

That said whether you believe it or not, the heart of this matter is that the X Wing doesn't carry anything like this 'weight' in the game. Its lackluster for its points. Not awful, but as has been stated the B Wing, which should fill a different fleet role, steals the X Wings thunder in just about every respect. More hull, same firepower, similar dial with some key advantages. Better action bar and far better customization options. All this for only one point more.

Mathwing puts the X at about 2 points (1.5 but you dont have half points) below its ideal position. Making the X Wing about 2 points better is a tricky improvement to balance. Im sure FFG will do a great job. But it doesnt stop us having fun talking about it in the meantime.

Sounds like the Bwing needs a nerf more than anything. But that's still not going to satisfy Xwing fanboys, which before your post, I was unaware of. I always thought the hard core rebel fluffers were fans of the Ewings and other exotic birds.

If the b wing didn't exist wed be pointing at btl y wings and z95 pairs for how bad the x wing is when compared to the rebel fleet. And if all of those ships were overcosted or didn't exist we'd compare it to the tie fighter and the rebels wouldn't play anything but turrets.

It didn't take a Bwing nerf for this to happen.

But the bottom line to this whole argument was summed up pages ago by Marinealiver when he list the few ships that actually matter in the meta. Fact is, that's ALWAYS how it's going to be. I'm ecstatic about the incoming fix for the Tie Adv. but I'm not confident that the changes will make it into a championship contender. Not the generic anyway.

It's like the guys at FFG never read "Game Design for Dummies". MiniMax is literally chapter one (or two but it's very early). They most likely gave the ship a break on the strength of its dial which is actually pretty decent when you consider that it doesn't have to do jack for maneuvering except slow roll and wait for the oppoenet to fly into his killbox.

I don't know what your point is, but the Bwing does exist and it may just be the prevailing ship for years to come as the designers try to sort out the ****storm they created with A3 turrets and Phantoms.

Eight attacks equals three health. If the X-Wing and B-Wing are expected to be attacked eight times per match, the shield/evade difference is a wash. If they're attacked less, the advantage goes to the B-Wing. Nine or more times favors the X-Wing.

Statistically incorrect, the B-wing still has a higher survival chance. I have the probability density functions for expected number of rounds to kill each, but only returned the final mean results for the Mathwing thread.

How? An evade die is 3/8 effective.

Extensive math. The methodology is here: https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/128417-mathwing-comprehensive-ship-jousting-values-and-more/

I'll probably make a big "MathWing: Durability thread" someday.

Can you just dumb it down for the layman? 3/8 x 8 = 3.

It depends what exactly is shooting at you, but you almost universally have a higher chance of surviving 8 random shots on a B-wing than taking those same equivalent shots on an X-wing. I'll have to dig out the exact density functions at some point to see if the X-wing ever "catches up" on the "shots to kill" curve for many many shots. Pretty sure the B-wing still comes out ahead for any reasonable percentage chance of staying alive though.

The x-wing is a bit weak now, but it's not glaringly bad. I'd favor having it improved through new astromechs, as opposed to just slapping on a free boost or barrel roll.

I did kinda like the idea of putting SLAM on it though.

Eight attacks equals three health. If the X-Wing and B-Wing are expected to be attacked eight times per match, the shield/evade difference is a wash. If they're attacked less, the advantage goes to the B-Wing. Nine or more times favors the X-Wing.

Statistically incorrect, the B-wing still has a higher survival chance. I have the probability density functions for expected number of rounds to kill each, but only returned the final mean results for the Mathwing thread.

How? An evade die is 3/8 effective.

Extensive math. The methodology is here: https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/128417-mathwing-comprehensive-ship-jousting-values-and-more/

I'll probably make a big "MathWing: Durability thread" someday.

Can you just dumb it down for the layman? 3/8 x 8 = 3.

It depends what exactly is shooting at you, but you almost universally have a higher chance of surviving 8 random shots on a B-wing than taking those same equivalent shots on an X-wing. I'll have to dig out the exact density functions at some point to see if the X-wing ever "catches up" on the "shots to kill" curve for many many shots. Pretty sure the B-wing still comes out ahead for any reasonable percentage chance of staying alive though.

Eight attacks equals three health. If the X-Wing and B-Wing are expected to be attacked eight times per match, the shield/evade difference is a wash. If they're attacked less, the advantage goes to the B-Wing. Nine or more times favors the X-Wing.

Statistically incorrect, the B-wing still has a higher survival chance. I have the probability density functions for expected number of rounds to kill each, but only returned the final mean results for the Mathwing thread.

How? An evade die is 3/8 effective.

when it wants to be*

Sounds like the Bwing needs a nerf more than anything. But that's still not going to satisfy Xwing fanboys, which before your post, I was unaware of. I always thought the hard core rebel fluffers were fans of the Ewings and other exotic birds.

In a world where fat han is allowed to exist, any call for a Bwing nerf can be cordially and appropriately met with the extension of a very prominent finger

OK, but you still haven't explained how 3/8 x 8 = 3 doesn't apply conceptionally.

The X-wing does catch up eventually, but the likelihood of surviving that long is extremely rare. Here's a couple pictures that I just whipped up to illustrate.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_FtpUvAFB8peTF2WU1rNVJXT1U/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_FtpUvAFB8pR0N1QTl3VW9pQkE/view?usp=sharing

The X-wing catches up at 9 hits, but you're talking a 98.15% chance of being dead (B-wing) vs 97.95% chance of being dead (X-wing).

If FFG release an upgrade or patch or general x-wing improvement then they'd likely provide a new expansion pack, hopefully with two x-wings in it. Then I'd have an excuse to buy new x-wings to replace my current ones which have wonky engines and broken lasers

My idea, with no testing or grand math skills to back it up, runs something like this:

Title: T-65C. Cost: 1 or 2 points. Would give the X-wing either barrel roll, or a boost knockoff. I say knockoff because the title should not be able to allow the X wing to use autothrusters. End result, add boost or barrel roll with the increase in manueverabilty at a discount, fixing the limited mobility at a discount, which should also offset the slight overcost. The change is minor enough that it shouldn't step on the toes of any other fighters but give the good ol X a competitive boost. Basic idea is mu almost auto include of engine upgrade to Wedge.

Now someone tell me what I overlooked

In a world where fat han is allowed to exist, any call for a Bwing nerf can be cordially and appropriately met with the extension of a very prominent finger

All we need now is another Rebel Aces that adds a 3-Attack turret to the Bwing and their victory is complete!

OK, but you still haven't explained how 3/8 x 8 = 3 doesn't apply conceptionally.

The X-wing does catch up eventually, but the likelihood of surviving that long is extremely rare. Here's a couple pictures that I just whipped up to illustrate.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_FtpUvAFB8peTF2WU1rNVJXT1U/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_FtpUvAFB8pR0N1QTl3VW9pQkE/view?usp=sharing

The X-wing catches up at 9 hits, but you're talking a 98.15% chance of being dead (B-wing) vs 97.95% chance of being dead (X-wing).

I would like to understand, but you still haven't explained it. I see how the X-Wing catches up after 9 hits in your chart, but you haven't explained how your chart deviates from the simple application of 3/8 x 8 = 3.

The X-Wing's "problems" stem from the fact that it's an average ship with baseline performance. I don't see a problem with this, however if you wanted to buff it without going overboard, give it a title that gives it free Experimental Interface an extra EPT slot. That way you can take Expert Handling and can use EI to proc it.

I think this is the issue. The X Wing in the fluff was not an 'average' ship. Its performance and overall package was remarkable for what it was. Nearly as fast and nearly as manoeuverable as a TIE Fighter with much better protection and firepower, a hyperdrive, coffee machine and built in massage chair for those long hyperspace journeys (totally legit I researched it). It was remarkable for what it combined in one package. It was anything BUT average. It became the baseline ship of the rebel alliance for precisely that reason. That and the fact that the design team stole the documents and gave them to the rebels... Maybe that had something to do with it.

The X WIng is symbolic of everything that the rebels stood for because of its association with the movies and the whole franchise. As such the X Wing for many people on this board (and SW fans in general) is Star Wars. Its also the ship the game is named after.

That said whether you believe it or not, the heart of this matter is that the X Wing doesn't carry anything like this 'weight' in the game. Its lackluster for its points. Not awful, but as has been stated the B Wing, which should fill a different fleet role, steals the X Wings thunder in just about every respect. More hull, same firepower, similar dial with some key advantages. Better action bar and far better customization options. All this for only one point more.

Mathwing puts the X at about 2 points (1.5 but you dont have half points) below its ideal position. Making the X Wing about 2 points better is a tricky improvement to balance. Im sure FFG will do a great job. But it doesnt stop us having fun talking about it in the meantime.

Sounds like the Bwing needs a nerf more than anything. But that's still not going to satisfy Xwing fanboys, which before your post, I was unaware of. I always thought the hard core rebel fluffers were fans of the Ewings and other exotic birds.

If the b wing didn't exist wed be pointing at btl y wings and z95 pairs for how bad the x wing is when compared to the rebel fleet. And if all of those ships were overcosted or didn't exist we'd compare it to the tie fighter and the rebels wouldn't play anything but turrets.

It didn't take a Bwing nerf for this to happen.

But the bottom line to this whole argument was summed up pages ago by Marinealiver when he list the few ships that actually matter in the meta. Fact is, that's ALWAYS how it's going to be. I'm ecstatic about the incoming fix for the Tie Adv. but I'm not confident that the changes will make it into a championship contender. Not the generic anyway.

It's like the guys at FFG never read "Game Design for Dummies". MiniMax is literally chapter one (or two but it's very early). They most likely gave the ship a break on the strength of its dial which is actually pretty decent when you consider that it doesn't have to do jack for maneuvering except slow roll and wait for the oppoenet to fly into his killbox.

I don't know what your point is, but the Bwing does exist and it may just be the prevailing ship for years to come as the designers try to sort out the ****storm they created with A3 turrets and Phantoms.

Back when I used to play magic Mark Rosewater would periodically write articles about bad cards and thier importance to the game, especially in how they highlight good cards. There will always be bad ships or limited ships in x wing. The point I'm trying to make is as follows. Based off the criteria ffg has appeared to layout and off their interviews the x wing in its current state is comparable to other ships that received buffs in thier pre buff state.

I will go one step further, I think it would be healthy for the game to buff the x wing from where it stands. I don't think ita the end of the world if certain cards on certain ships don't see play. I'm ok that corran horn is the only e wing worth running. I was ok pre rebel aces that b wing saw dramatically more use as blues and daggers with a sensor slot filled, although I do think that the e2 added alot to the game. I'm ok that tie bombers don't see a ton of play. I have a problem with the ship the game was named after, a space superiority fighter in a dog fighting game doesn't, much like how the advanced was totally unpleasant prior to its buff. I think it's bad foe the game that the x wing doesn't see much competitive play.

Edited for clarity after I sobered up. Go Bucks!

OK, but you still haven't explained how 3/8 x 8 = 3 doesn't apply conceptionally.

The X-wing does catch up eventually, but the likelihood of surviving that long is extremely rare. Here's a couple pictures that I just whipped up to illustrate.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_FtpUvAFB8peTF2WU1rNVJXT1U/view?usp=sharinghttps://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_FtpUvAFB8pR0N1QTl3VW9pQkE/view?usp=sharing

The X-wing catches up at 9 hits, but you're talking a 98.15% chance of being dead (B-wing) vs 97.95% chance of being dead (X-wing).

I would like to understand, but you still haven't explained it. I see how the X-Wing catches up after 9 hits in your chart, but you haven't explained how your chart deviates from the simple application of 3/8 x 8 = 3.

So if you want to know how long a ship will survive, you have to go deeper than just looking at the average result.

The short version is that if you roll 8 defense dice you might come up with 3 evades--that's the most likely result, anyway, and ththe average. But 37% of the time it'll be less (0-2 evades), and 35% of the time it'll be more (4-8 evades). And if you throw attack dice in there, too, there's even more variation in the result of an attack against a B-wing.

So if you want to know how long a ship will survive, you have to go deeper than just looking at the average result.

but trust me, you don't want to explore the depths of the evil that is green dice

I like cake.