So I haven't had time to get many matches in with Scum yet, but the few I have played have included the Star Viper.

One thing I have noticed is that its got an excellent 'knife-fighting' dial. It has all the 1+2 moves, and none of them are red. Plus, the s-loop is perfect for turning around while in confined spaces because you have two different directions to pick from so less likely to be blocked. Get these suckers into a dense cluster of asteroids/debris, and they are difficult to deal with, yet well-equipped to keep arc on an enemy. I'd go so far as to say that their dial is even better than the b-wing for this purpose...

I also kinda like the fact that the generic is PS 1. With barrel roll, its a great blocker, and if you draw your opponent into the asteroid field, its not hard to limit your opponent's ability to focus fire.

I'm thinking 2 warthogs with title + ICT (23 pts each) plus 2 Black Sun enforcers each with autothrusters (mainly so you don't auto-lose to turrets) would be a pretty good list.

Thoughts?

Not every ship has to have an analogue on the other side.

It's not a B wing, it's an x wing with an A-wings mobility.

Umm, FYI watch the abbreviation for Black Sun. I'm pretty sure everyone knows what you mean, but I'd be careful.

Kind of like flying 3 K-wings :mellow:

The B-wing is way more cost effective. The StarViper is closer to pre-buff TIE Advanced jousting efficiency. The generic StarVipers are overcosted by about 2 points, otherwise they would probably see much more use.

It's not a B wing, it's an x wing with an A-wings mobility.

I'm not sure if you are speaking from experience or just looking at dials, but in my experience so far, it does not fly anything at all like an a-wing and is certainly more durable than an x-wing. Lacking 5 straight and 3 hard turns changes your options quite a bit compared to the a-wing. Not to mention it has no k-turns and less green on the dial. However, its 1+2 moves match the b-wing (except k-turn) and I was speaking in terms of using it for 'in close' fighting, particularly in an asteroid field. A tactic that b-wings are known to be good for. My assertion is that the star viper seems even better than the b-wing in this specific regard.

The generic StarVipers are overpriced, but I think I see where the OP is going in terms of how to use the ship.

I agree with the OP in that I view the StarViper as a knife-fighter. The dial lends it well to close range combat, preferably outside of the arc of whatever it is trying to obliterate. Boost/barrel roll give it the ability to get there, while 3 agility should (theoretically) give it the survivability to get to close range. Guri in particular is awesome in this capacity, given her pilot ability.

Xizor can be just as effective from long range if you want to try and hold him there. A 1 Forward followed by a barrel roll backwards is almost the equivalent of being stationary. However, I still view him as a knife-fighter because you can slap a Veteran Instincts on him and move in close and barrel roll or boost out of another ship's arc after they have moved ahead of you.

The low PS StarVipers remind me somewhat of the low PS TIE Interceptors: they have a great action bar for getting right up on someone's tail, but they move too early in the round to do it with any reliability. You almost have to play them like snipers and hope that range bonuses and Autothrusters keep them in play.

Umm, FYI watch the abbreviation for Black Sun. I'm pretty sure everyone knows what you mean, but I'd be careful.

Kind of like flying 3 K-wings :mellow:

There, I spelled it out

The B-wing is way more cost effective. The StarViper is closer to pre-buff TIE Advanced jousting efficiency. The generic StarVipers are overcosted by about 2 points, otherwise they would probably see much more use.

I wouldn't expect it to be equal to b-wing in jousting. I think its dial is superior though and using it in the asteroids I think is where it really shines. Perhaps it is less efficient, but it seems pretty good for what it does. This is based on a only 4 games so far, but I can only expect I'll get better with it with even more practice, and so far its done pretty good for me

Umm, FYI watch the abbreviation for Black Sun. I'm pretty sure everyone knows what you mean, but I'd be careful.

Kind of like flying 3 K-wings :mellow:

Wouldn't be a bad thing necessarily - if the only thing people looking for the other 3 K thing could find was links to X-Wing sites on the first 10 pages of all the search engines, I'd consider that a public service

The PS 1 is an excellent blocker. Having both the boost or barrel roll to move into position is pretty nice. They just can't take anything but a torpedo though. Really limited in how you can outfit them. Really its just ATs, that's it. I just wish FFG would stop making PS 3-5s without EPTs. It makes their point system very inconsistent across the board. If you are making them 2 points more over the base generic, give them a **** EPT!

I like the two named pilots. Guri is just fine with Predator and nothing else. Xizor you kind of have to build around him and load him up a bit to get the most out of him. Advanced Sensors with a boost or barrel roll into a segnor is pretty sweet.

Having an analog is very good because it helps you come to grips with the ship

At first, people expected the ship to be an interceptor because of the loaded action bar, but the dial simply does not support PTL well. It is more related to the B-wing because the dial is the exact same minus the k-turn swapped to s-loops, the additional 3 green forward, and a whole lot of bleach on the 1-turns and 3-banks.

Unlike a B-wing, though, the generics are very prone to dice failure with only 1 shield and 3 green dice to their name. Guri and Xizor more live up to the label, because between predator and their abilities they can more reliably sledgehammer their way through a hairball.

Neither character really needs more than predator (or LW guri) and thrusters to make work very well

I am not a big fan of the PS 1 Viper, but I intend to give the Vigo some play in the near future. I have a simple list drawn up that is kind of a Scum swarm list with a couple of PS 3 Vipers with Autothrusters matched with a trio of PS 3 Z's bearing a mix of cheap illicit upgrades (Feedback and Deadman's Switch). Not sure it will work, but it doesn't hurt to try. It should do decently well against Rebel and/or TIE swarm lists, at least.

The lack of a generally available sensors slot really hurts the ability of Starvipers to be Knife fighters. If they could all take AdvS, I think they would be more effective, but they are working against a steep price for their statline and action bar. I think that even if they all could take AdvS they would still not be good knife fighters.

The lack of a generally available sensors slot really hurts the ability of Starvipers to be Knife fighters. If they could all take AdvS, I think they would be more effective, but they are working against a steep price for their statline and action bar. I think that even if they all could take AdvS they would still not be good knife fighters.

I disagree. I mean yeah, advanced sensors 'standard' would be an awesome option, but then you are looking at 28 pts...possibly 30 with autothrusters. They can get away without advanced sensors at PS 1, because they are doing the blocking, not the other way around. Granted, it would be nice to have for slipping around asteroids and taking an action before the s-loop, but 1 hard turn + BR means the s-loop isn't needed all the time.

So far they've been pretty good at knife fighting for me. Again, not many games yet, so time will tell. But given the lack of red on the dial, I think they have the potential to 'out-knife' even the b-wing. Their action economy will be better (unless the b-wings have advanced sensors) and blocking is easy and can be a big factor inside a confined space (advantage for the Star Viper @ PS 1).

you really don't need sensors on Starvipers. Guri and Xizor have abilities and ept slots that work 100% independently of bumping into things, so they really don't care as much and the 4 points of virago + sensors starts bloating them past the point where they can make a cost efficient impact on their games (they're not phantoms and certainly can't hit as hard, so they should not be forced to cost as much).

The generics wouldn't need sensors if they weren't just priced inefficiently for their crap-shoot stats. Loaded action bar gives you a wide variety of approaches into a crowded board and the option for 1 of 2 segnors is pretty wonderful for navigating a hairball. If they could joust at all well, they'd be very fine pilots.

It's not B-wing, that's for sure. I flew a couple of them alongside Emon in my last game with this mindset. I friggin love B-wings (who doesn't?) However, I just couldn't make these work in the same way. They were somewhat similar, but me and green dice simply don't get along. Their price keeps them from being usable, in my opinion.

It's not a B wing, it's an x wing with an A-wings mobility.

I'm not sure if you are speaking from experience or just looking at dials, but in my experience so far, it does not fly anything at all like an a-wing and is certainly more durable than an x-wing. Lacking 5 straight and 3 hard turns changes your options quite a bit compared to the a-wing. Not to mention it has no k-turns and less green on the dial. However, its 1+2 moves match the b-wing (except k-turn) and I was speaking in terms of using it for 'in close' fighting, particularly in an asteroid field. A tactic that b-wings are known to be good for. My assertion is that the star viper seems even better than the b-wing in this specific regard.

The B-wing is more cost effective, but the Viper, with its 3 green dice, are tougher against all those 2-dice ships, and they're more maneuverable. I think it's one of those ships where your dial lets you outmaneuver the jousters and outfight the arc-dodgers.

Between 3 green dice (when they behave), auto-thrusters, and the two pilot abilities (additional focus to modify both attack and defense rolls, or basically guaranteed evade on every attack that won't trigger gunner) Guri & Xizor actually turn out to be far more durable than a B-wing (Xizor being close to immortal given how no one ever wants to shoot him)

The B-wing has a decent amount of health, but basically all it means is it won't go down to **** dice, not that it won't go down quickly.

Not to suggest that the expensive characters be used as straight jousters (well Xizor can, since again no one wants to shoot him while he's got a meatshield buddy to hide behind), but they are pretty incredibly durable for their profile. This is a key advantage for the Viper, since it cannot boost its offense to ridiculous levels ala phantom or HLC bearing ships.

The generics, however, lack these incredibly powerful abilities (or a decent price point) and aren't nearly as durable because of it.

Umm, FYI watch the abbreviation for Black Sun. I'm pretty sure everyone knows what you mean, but I'd be careful.

Kind of like flying 3 K-wings :mellow:

Wouldn't be a bad thing necessarily - if the only thing people looking for the other 3 K thing could find was links to X-Wing sites on the first 10 pages of all the search engines, I'd consider that a public service

True, everyone spam the forums with your Triple-K lists!!

I can't tell you how happy I am that everyone thinks these guys are over priced and that the generics are worthless. I'm eating the current meta up with my double PS1 Starviper and Kath build. They are fantastic blockers, arch dodgers, lane makers and 1 on 1 jousters. With Autothrusters forget about hitting them if they have a focus token when out of arch or beyond R2.

Their dials are fantastic. Doesn't have the greens that an Interceptor does, but can do every single 1 and 2 move white or green. If you fly them right, those S and 1 turns are brutal. After the first pass, my Starvipers rarely take any further damage, but they sure do dish it out. Favorite ship in the game right now.

I can't tell you how happy I am that everyone thinks these guys are over priced and that the generics are worthless. I'm eating the current meta up with my double PS1 Starviper and Kath build. They are fantastic blockers, arch dodgers, lane makers and 1 on 1 jousters. With Autothrusters forget about hitting them if they have a focus token when out of arch or beyond R2.

Their dials are fantastic. Doesn't have the greens that an Interceptor does, but can do every single 1 and 2 move white or green. If you fly them right, those S and 1 turns are brutal. After the first pass, my Starvipers rarely take any further damage, but they sure do dish it out. Favorite ship in the game right now.

Interesting that you should mention Kath. I just had a talk with Theorist about the Star Viper and asked him how he thought it compared to the b-wing. He felt it was much more like a TIE interceptor, but with more health and of course trades evade action for target lock. I can see that line of reasoning, especially since they share similar weaknesses (die quickly to focus fire and do not want to joust back and forth). He suggested running Kath alongside either Guri or instead with 1 or 2 generic Star Vipers, so its an idea I've been thinking about since starting this thread.

Mind sharing your build? My thought initially is:

Kath w/ PtL, K4 droid, engine and seismic

2 Blacksun Enforcers

Umm, FYI watch the abbreviation for Black Sun. I'm pretty sure everyone knows what you mean, but I'd be careful.

Kind of like flying 3 K-wings :mellow:

There, I spelled it out

The B-wing is way more cost effective. The StarViper is closer to pre-buff TIE Advanced jousting efficiency. The generic StarVipers are overcosted by about 2 points, otherwise they would probably see much more use.

I wouldn't expect it to be equal to b-wing in jousting. I think its dial is superior though and using it in the asteroids I think is where it really shines. Perhaps it is less efficient, but it seems pretty good for what it does. This is based on a only 4 games so far, but I can only expect I'll get better with it with even more practice, and so far its done pretty good for me

Yeah, a Starviper with the same jousting efficiency as the B-wing would almost certainly be undercosted. But even a PS1 StarViper at 23 points would be lower jousting efficiency than the B-wing.

Umm, FYI watch the abbreviation for Black Sun. I'm pretty sure everyone knows what you mean, but I'd be careful.

Kind of like flying 3 K-wings :mellow:

There, I spelled it out

The B-wing is way more cost effective. The StarViper is closer to pre-buff TIE Advanced jousting efficiency. The generic StarVipers are overcosted by about 2 points, otherwise they would probably see much more use.

I wouldn't expect it to be equal to b-wing in jousting. I think its dial is superior though and using it in the asteroids I think is where it really shines. Perhaps it is less efficient, but it seems pretty good for what it does. This is based on a only 4 games so far, but I can only expect I'll get better with it with even more practice, and so far its done pretty good for me

Yeah, a Starviper with the same jousting efficiency as the B-wing would almost certainly be undercosted. But even a PS1 StarViper at 23 points would be lower jousting efficiency than the B-wing.

I wonder if the reason FFG didn't make it 23 points is to avoid the obvious 4 Enforcers w/ AT. Seems to me that build would virtually auto-win vs almost any turret build...

please COST EFFECTIVENESS is the hallmark of the B. NOT the systems upgrade.

I can't tell you how happy I am that everyone thinks these guys are over priced and that the generics are worthless. I'm eating the current meta up with my double PS1 Starviper and Kath build. They are fantastic blockers, arch dodgers, lane makers and 1 on 1 jousters. With Autothrusters forget about hitting them if they have a focus token when out of arch or beyond R2.

Their dials are fantastic. Doesn't have the greens that an Interceptor does, but can do every single 1 and 2 move white or green. If you fly them right, those S and 1 turns are brutal. After the first pass, my Starvipers rarely take any further damage, but they sure do dish it out. Favorite ship in the game right now.

Shhh don't try to dissuade the forum hive mind. If it has been deemed overpriced, thus it has been spoken. (Little do they realize they work just fine, but lets keep that secret to us)