My impression aligns with others here that the issue is not really about casual vs. competitive but more about control not being fun to fly against.

My dual Aggressor Ion/Autoblaster/Ion Cannon list isn't particularly effective, but nobody has fun getting tagged by an ion, knowing that I'm closing to range-1 next round for uncancellable damage.

There used to be a troll-turned-stalker on these forums who was known for getting drunk and making a compete @$$ out of himself on vassal. I wonder if anyone's played him recently.

A casual list, to me, implies some certain theme not based on competitiveness.

There are 'casual' lists which happen to be very good. A 7-8 TIE Swarm is a casual list - what's more Star Wars than lots of the cheapest throw away ships the empire can offer?

They were being whinos. Honestly I feel like anything that isn't a tournament is casual. If someone got mad that you ran a non-meta list that didn't suck that is his or her own fault. The fact of the matter is that anyone who gets butt hurt over losing to a 3 ship list with 2 x-wings in it needs to 1) Realize their claim is groundless and 2) He or she needs to understand that if you are going to play a vassal game with a stranger (as opposed to a face to face game with a friend) that the other person is more than likely not building their list within the same parameters.

In summary; F*ck those guys.

"Casual Lists" are the kind of lists that certain types of players want to see across the table from them so they can win without having to actually get better at the game.

Seriously, if someone has a moral objection to the list you're playing, they should say something before you play, not after they lose to it. If someone tells me before we play that my list is too competitive, I will happily play someone else or switch lists. But to pull that one someone after you lose is just being a poor sport.

For me, there are only a few things that are not fun to play against, and I avoid them in casual games. Excessive control lists, and the old rules phantom. If half your ships are ioned every turn, you just sit around and watch me play. Also the old phantom was irritating to opponents in the same way, if you play a whole game an never get to fire your guns, it will not be fun.

That being said, the phantom is fun again, and control lists(stress included) are a huge part of the game now, so I have no problem taking any list to a casual game.

I consider any list I beat "casual." If I lose a game, that player is a hyper competitive jerk who brought a unfair try-hard list to just troll me.

Lists with fun gimmicks or tricks that might not really hack it in a tournament setting.

Sorry, but I'm one of those. What makes a game casual or competitive is playstyle, attitude, and timing, not list content.

On the other hand, the point of non-tournament play is practice and experimentation. So showing up to a casual game with your most familiar, most reliable list and tabling an inexperienced opponent is a bad idea for everyone: it isn't good sportsmanship, and it doesn't teach you anything. Casual night with nothing riding on the outcome is the perfect time to work on an unfamiliar list or play around with a new combo you think might have some value.

This is interesting to me. Just to use an (admittedly extreme, but not totally out-of-the-question) situation as an example:

Suppose that a friend of your is just getting into the game, and has bought enough generic X Wings and Y Wings to cludge together a 100 point list. This is obviously not something anyone would ever want to bring to a tournament; said friend just liked the Rebel ships from the first film.

Do you think it would be appropriate while teaching / playing for fun against this list to run, say, Soontir + Chirneau (and presumably also fly them to the best of your ability)?

(Question not intended as a loaded one. I'm really curious about your answer)

Do you think it would be appropriate while teaching / playing for fun against this list to run, say, Soontir + Chirneau (and presumably also fly them to the best of your ability)?

Yes and no.

I might do it once or twice to show him what a really good list looks like and how well it can be played. But I wouldn't keep doing it, unless he asked me to. Some people would rather get beat hard and learn from it then have someone pull punches.

Do you think it would be appropriate while teaching / playing for fun against this list to run, say, Soontir + Chirneau (and presumably also fly them to the best of your ability)?

Yes and no.

I might do it once or twice to show him what a really good list looks like and how well it can be played. But I wouldn't keep doing it, unless he asked me to. Some people would rather get beat hard and learn from it then have someone pull punches.

Alright - but would you not say that those games where you choose not to employ the top tier list against the newcomer with the sub-par list is you opting to create a space for (for lack of better words) casual/non-competitive play?

Again, that's obviously an extreme example, but even recognizing that there are at least two extremes (new player with X-Wing/Y-Wing list vs, say, final table at Regionals) suggests - at least to me - that's we're operating on a spectrum.

All lists are casual. Some lists are not competative.

But that's probably just me. There is no top cap on what can be used in a casual game. There are lists players shouldn't use in casual events+ but they are largely based on what that player is familiar with. Casual is about experimenting, trying new things. Competative is about using something familiar and powerful like a well oiled murder machine.

I guess illegal or unreleased lists are the only "casual" ones I can think of.

Sorry, but I'm one of those. What makes a game casual or competitive is playstyle, attitude, and timing, not list content.

On the other hand, the point of non-tournament play is practice and experimentation. So showing up to a casual game with your most familiar, most reliable list and tabling an inexperienced opponent is a bad idea for everyone: it isn't good sportsmanship, and it doesn't teach you anything. Casual night with nothing riding on the outcome is the perfect time to work on an unfamiliar list or play around with a new combo you think might have some value.

This is interesting to me. Just to use an (admittedly extreme, but not totally out-of-the-question) situation as an example:

Suppose that a friend of your is just getting into the game, and has bought enough generic X Wings and Y Wings to cludge together a 100 point list. This is obviously not something anyone would ever want to bring to a tournament; said friend just liked the Rebel ships from the first film.

Do you think it would be appropriate while teaching / playing for fun against this list to run, say, Soontir + Chirneau (and presumably also fly them to the best of your ability)?

(Question not intended as a loaded one. I'm really curious about your answer)

Oh, my eyes, please use Ctrl+Shift+V next time.

The situation you describe would warrant what I call a teaching game. I would bring a simple list with very few upgrades that is mostly just about jousting, since that is what new players tend to like to do. It relieves my opponent of having to figure out and remember what all my upgrades do, and can also show them that a list with more ships and few upgrades can be very effective, as I've noticed new players like to just load up their ships with as many upgrades as they can. It also means they will get to roll lots of dice, since that is one of the most fun parts of the game for new players.

However, OP was not playing a teaching game, he was playing a game online against an opponent who knew how to play. I only play teaching games against opponents that ask me to, or at least mention to me that they are new and are still learning. Otherwise I have no idea what skill level my opponent is at and I will play my best, because I enjoy the self-improvement aspect of X-Wing and I believe you can only improve when you are playing at your best. I understand however that when playing against a new player that wants to learn, the opportunities for me to learn anything by going all out are slim, and their enjoyment and learning is more important than me winning.

I actually am not sure you're framing the question or problem you ran into correctly. It's not whether your lists lend themselves to a casual game (And I think they do, btw, provided you aren't playing beginners. You don't have any meta-dominating pilots in there, and, heck, one is full of X-wings.)

I think it's really about the opposing player communicating expectations (or you, if they have them) before the game, especially on Vassal where you don't see people in person and there are people playing for a variety of reasons: some people are there to test lists, find games because they don't have them (casually or otherwise). If those aren't communicated before the game, they shouldn't be complaining after the fact.

For example, when I play on Vassal, I often do so only because I want to get more practice in with a list that I plan to play in a tourney and I can't get out of the house as much as I'd like to play with two girls ages 7 and 2. I tend not to worry about what my opponent is going to fly as I might face anything in a tournament. I sometimes prefer hard counters because I get a good sense of what my squad can do. The only thing I've occassionally asked before setting up a game is that my opponent only uses currently legal lists because I'd like to play against what I might face, but I do it before the game is even set up.

This isn't to say I don't play casually on Vassal, even when practicing with a list I might take to a tourney, but I don't typically bring "just for kicks" lists and don't expect my opponent to either. I've found that most people play casually on Vassal, it's just the lists that vary.

It's the same thing in person, though, too, it's just easier when you have the person in front of you and you know who they are what their playstyle is and how they like to play the game, or maybe it's a group night and everyone's meeting up for the same type of game and reason. On Vassal it's just a name on a screen until you've gotten to know the player a bit, so if one party has a specific goal or expectation, they need to communicate that up front.

Isn't any game that's not played for money or prizes - by definition - casual? Like if you don't both lay down a Benjamin before the game what the hell does it matter how competitive your list is?

To me any list where fun and desire are a higher priority than winning is a casual list.

For me a casual list is one that I try with no expectation of winning. I have no problem with the opponent using a competitive list because I chose to use the list I did. Even when outmatched by heavy control you can try different things and learn from your loss. At the very least you learn how the competitive list moves and attacks.

I would say that I always try to play competitively even with "casual" lists. I think it's only fair to your opponent to give your best. When I play against my son I give him a points advantage and play like I would at a tournament (he still beats me 90% of the time). I suggest doing the same when going up against newer players.

For me what makes a game casual is that you let your opponent try different things and take back mistakes and make changes. Such as checking if a different maneuver would make it or rerolling a forgotten lone wolf after the green dice. It's also where you make risky maneuvers that you'd never use in a tournament.

Sorry, but I'm one of those. What makes a game casual or competitive is playstyle, attitude, and timing, not list content.

On the other hand, the point of non-tournament play is practice and experimentation. So showing up to a casual game with your most familiar, most reliable list and tabling an inexperienced opponent is a bad idea for everyone: it isn't good sportsmanship, and it doesn't teach you anything. Casual night with nothing riding on the outcome is the perfect time to work on an unfamiliar list or play around with a new combo you think might have some value.

This is interesting to me. Just to use an (admittedly extreme, but not totally out-of-the-question) situation as an example:

Suppose that a friend of your is just getting into the game, and has bought enough generic X Wings and Y Wings to cludge together a 100 point list. This is obviously not something anyone would ever want to bring to a tournament; said friend just liked the Rebel ships from the first film.

Do you think it would be appropriate while teaching / playing for fun against this list to run, say, Soontir + Chirneau (and presumably also fly them to the best of your ability)?

(Question not intended as a loaded one. I'm really curious about your answer)

When martial artists spar, they typically wear gloves. There are two good reasons to do so:

(1) It prevents injuries when you make contact.

(2) It allows contact without injuries.

That is, injuries are to be prevented, but contact is not only unavoidable but desirable. I learned how to throw a punch by throwing lots of bad ones, and I learned to block by getting hit a lot. I typically didn't get hurt, beyond some aches and pains, but I did get hit, and I learned from it.

In the same vein, when I play X-wing, I play to win. I also play lists I think have a good chance of winning. So in your scenario I'd be happy to play a game, talk about what I see that's good and bad in both lists, and then swap lists for a rematch.

But yeah, if what I brought that night was Soontir/Chiraneau, that's what I'd play. My opponent isn't going to learn to build lists better if I build bad ones, and he or she isn't going to learn to play better if I make bad decisions on the tabletop. Again, I'd be happy to talk (during the game or after) about what decisions I was making and why, but I wouldn't make bad ones deliberately just to give my friend a better chance to win.

Purposefully building a bad list against an experienced player is disrespectful. Trying things to see how they work is not.

In every game you should be there to try to win. If you're sandbagging because it's a casual game... Well you're only slightly mkre likely to play me again than the an obnkxious rage quitter. I don't get to play this game often enough to want to play games that aren't intense and filled with interesting ships.

Any list not using defenders is casual to me, what kind of a scrub wouldn't use the galaxies best starfighter.

Apparently, anyone using Xwings is a casual.

Personally I dont think there is any such thing as a "casual list" vs a "competitive list". There are lists that are considered more competitive than others but the only thing that separates something from casual and not to me is the attitude you have when you play it. Casual lists are anything you have fun playing. Some people have fun playing a bunch of zs with feedback, some with pre nerf advanceds and bomber lists, and some with Fat Han. I dont have any problem with any list that my opponent plays and as long as he/she was having a great time and not being an ass while playing then I am going to have a great time win or lose.

I would never in a million years try to take away from my opponents joy by trying to shame him/her from using a particular list in a casual game just because it was one that I personally didnt like or because it happened to be min/maxed. That to me just speaks of poor sportsmanship and I would not want to play casual games with people like that anyway.

Edit : If i didnt want to play against "tournament worthy lists" or if i wanted to play against a certain kind of list (like a goofy one) then I would state that before the game and find an opponent who would enjoy playing the kind of list i wanted to play against. I certainly wouldnt start whining after the game is over. Sounds to me like you were just playing against sore losers OP... and honestly I dont even think those lists are the kind of lists I would call "non casual" even if I did believe there was such a thing!!

There was an advanced nerf? Wasn't it made of foam to begin with?

Apparently, anyone using Xwings is a casual.

I was just about to say something like this.