I've played games that use cards (Warmachine, Dystopian Wars) and ones that use books (the GW stable) but I've never played a game that required you to buy the cards in order to have access to the rules before. For instance, if I want access to the TIE advance fix, it's my understanding that I need to buy the Imperial Raider. And if I want to use that fix with say, an Accuracy Corrector, I need to buy a Starviper.

How would people react if (in a 'casual' game) a player was to simply write the costs and effects of a given card on a roster, instead of physically having the card at the table? Personally, I'd have no problems with that.

In a casual game, that would be fine with 99% of players. The other 1% being "that guy".

I only play casual .. at my home .. with friends. We love the OT and as a result I am yet (and don't plan to) buy any of the EU stuff. We just use any one of the wonderful list builders available to make and print our lists. Therefore, having the physical card is not a problem.

At your FLGS you might see a different story though. I understand that participation in a Tournie requires you to own or borrow all of the necessary kit.

That is called a proxy and a search of the forums on that word will reveal a wealth of opinions.

Good luck

Interesting, I always assumed 'proxy' meant a print out/copy of the actual card. Upon second thought .. a print out from a list builder also fits this description. Silly me.

It's FFG's way of ripping people off. They duplicate this method for Assault and Armada as well, which is why I'm not buying into those.

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How would people react if (in a 'casual' game) a player was to simply write the costs and effects of a given card on a roster, instead of physically having the card at the table? Personally, I'd have no problems with that.

I'd say it may depend a great deal on how extensive it is. You buy the ship and the proxy all the upgrades (assuming 2 or more) on that ship I know I'd take issue seeing how I've at least attempted to have the actual cards. On the other hand if you have actual copies of the upgrade card then using a proxy of that card on other ships starts going over better.

Another reason to forbid it can come from a "slippery slope" argument that if you can proxy upgrade cards then why not allow everything else to be proxied as well? I want to try an eight ship TIE Swarm but I only have five TIE Fighters so I'll just use my three Interceptors as well and call them Fighters; are you going to be OK with that?

A final reason to not use Proxies is that it can force you into becoming a better player by learning how to use suboptimal upgrades.

I want to try an eight ship TIE Swarm but I only have five TIE Fighters so I'll just use my three Interceptors as well and call them Fighters; are you going to be OK with that?

If all someone has is a squad builder print out and some pieces of cardboard cut into base shapes and written on with sharpies I'd still rather get in a game than not. (Assuming I, for some reason, only had the stuff I was using with me and could not loan them a full squad of...something)

I just never questioned things, when I started making lists, things like needing two Proton Torpedo cards if I wanted to give my B wing two Proton Torpedoes. Obviously I needed two upgrade cards. But the more I think about it, the less that makes sense to me. Why couldn't I just pay the points for my Torps, and then take a single card with me to show my opponent if he wants to know how Proton Torpedoes work? And for that matter, if I can find a digital image of the card, why would I even need a physical card at all? I suppose the problem has been highlighted for me recently as I've been playing some OOP games (Mordheim mostly) where the only way to see the rules at all is via PDF on a tablet or computer. This is more than adequate for those games so I can't see why it wouldn't be acceptable for pick-up games at the FLGS.

It's FFG's way of ripping people off. They duplicate this method for Assault and Armada as well, which is why I'm not buying into those.

If FFG wanted to rip you off as part of a grand money grab, they would sell the cards separately in packs. The margin on physical models is horrible; the margin on card stock is usually pretty good.

The only part of the X-Wing business model I find to be consumer-unfriendly is the packaging of highly desirable cards, like the TIE Advanced fix, with models that would otherwise have modest sales projections because of their prohibitively high cost. "You want this patch? Buy the $100.00 ship."

yeah i wouldn't have a problem but i do find it funny that most folks that talk about stuff like that can afford it. i also find it funny that they always quote MSRP when talking prices... I guess 90 sounds more formidable than 70? or even less when MM has a deal of the day (like 45 for a Tantive).

I agree with both sides of the arguments to an extent. If you are an honest to goodness cash strapped college kid who cant afford it then yeah I have sympathy for your plight. But if you show up driving some kind of 2015 V-tec Honda with 20,000 worth of Areo/ground effects with a thumping stereo and other assorted dodads along with the newest I phone 7 and Then want to proxy various items i will think to myself this person is cheap but what ever.. A casual game is at least a game!!

I can also understand if you just cant get the item but fully intend on purchasing it when ever it gets back into stock. I don't fault FFG at all its a GREAT business model and EVERYBODY that can does it.. I have Direct TV my current bill is around 100 a month which i think is waaaaaaay to high for the actual 10 to 12 channels that i actually watch.however they always seem to put 1 or 2 channels that i really like in the "Upgrade" packages so that i am forced to upgrade for those two channels!! personally i wish I could just pay 5 to even 10 bucks a channel!! however its kind of hard always going over to my friends house so i can "Proxy" other channels and I can afford it so I purchased it..Car dealerships do it too..

It's FFG's way of ripping people off. They duplicate this method for Assault and Armada as well, which is why I'm not buying into those.

If FFG wanted to top us off, they'd sell upgrades in randomized packs.

Would you prefer that every ship included every single card it was capable of using?

I've found X-wingers to be some of the most casual and non-uptight gamers around. This is generalization, of course, but if you came to our game store with printed out stuff, no one would blink an eye. In fact, they would probably loan you the model/cards if you wanted them.

X-Wing Expansions with model and cards are still cheaper than like a $40 Codex or Supplement.

This is more than adequate for those games so I can't see why it wouldn't be acceptable for pick-up games at the FLGS.

If the person has the cards I prefer seeing them on the table. Playing against someone with just a printed list isn't something I'd care for.

That said if you have 2 Proton Torpedo cards but want to use 4 of them, I'd only have an issue with that because you're supposed to discard them when you use them. So I can glance at your side and see how many torps you have left.

I wouldn't demand that you get 2 more cards if you don't have them and in fact would let you use 2 of my 3,752 copies... Heck I may even give you 2 to keep. I'd also be ok if you just had a slip of paper or something that said "Proton Torpedo" on it.

But that only really works for friendly games, at tournaments the rules are that you need each card you're going to use.

X-Wing Expansions with model and cards are still cheaper than like a $40 Codex or Supplement.

An x wing expansion also doesn't come with every rule I need to field the Imperial Guard, as is the entire point of this thread.

I would have no problem whatsoever. My desire for people to play and have fun greatly outweighs my desire for FFG to make money on people purchasing ships that they will never use. It is a card. As long as I know the rules of it, I am fine.

It is not at all the same thing as proxying a ship. Anyone who says it is has some issues...IMO.

It's FFG's way of ripping people off. They duplicate this method for Assault and Armada as well, which is why I'm not buying into those.

If FFG wanted to top us off, they'd sell upgrades in randomized packs.

Would you prefer that every ship included every single card it was capable of using?

I'd prefer that:

1 - Ships came with no cards.

2 - All cards came separately, in a book or deck.

3 - There was no requirement for multiple identical cards. If I'm running three Red Squadron pilots, then why would I need three identical cards?

So then I could make a single book/deck purchase, and then buy whatever models I wanted without being concerned about what cards where in what packs, and how many of them I might need.

For anything other than tournament play, I suspect most players won't care all that much if stuff is proxied.

This is their setup, you knew / know that investing into it. Learn to trade, buy singles and get over it. LOL I'm far from a position to buy any / all. But when I theorycraft my lists, I write down how many exp I need to complete. I would consider trading, my "limited/uniques" for cards I need or don't have.

But this isn't a game of yearly rule changing, 1k mass produced rarity cards, or $1k armies.

Ebays got singles, go to game shops, heck even attempt here on forums.

But stop complaining about multi-card issue.

It's FFG's way of ripping people off. They duplicate this method for Assault and Armada as well, which is why I'm not buying into those.

If FFG wanted to top us off, they'd sell upgrades in randomized packs.

Would you prefer that every ship included every single card it was capable of using?

I'd prefer that:

1 - Ships came with no cards.

2 - All cards came separately, in a book or deck.

3 - There was no requirement for multiple identical cards. If I'm running three Red Squadron pilots, then why would I need three identical cards?

So then I could make a single book/deck purchase, and then buy whatever models I wanted without being concerned about what cards where in what packs, and how many of them I might need.

Where are you keeping track of shields, damage cards and which fighter is which? I guess you can just use the numbers at that point but in this particular case, you're not going to possibly have a situation where you have 3 X-wing models, but not 3 Red Squadron cards.

I don't think you'd be able to do a single book system with X-wing either. Every time a new wave drops, your previous book is missing some number of new upgrade cards and the new pilots. Do you then also release a new wave specific book? Do I then have to be carrying around books for Waves 1, 3, 4 and 6 to field a list containing X-wings, B-wings, Z-95s and some upgrades from Scum and Villainy? I guess they could go the upgradeable PDF route but eh. Personally I don't mind the card system. I understand why some people don't, but the book system doesn't really work for a game where upgrades are all cross factional, and there's multiple releases every year.

X-Wing Expansions with model and cards are still cheaper than like a $40 Codex or Supplement.

And an $80 rules update every two years with a new $45 codex a year after that.

2 - All cards came separately, in a book or deck.

Would be a rather expensive book. Especially if you have to buy 8 of them, to run a 8 Tie Swarm. Or they included 6 copies of everything. Then you'd have to buy a new book every wave.

So yeah no thanks.

3 - There was no requirement for multiple identical cards. If I'm running three Red Squadron pilots, then why would I need three identical cards?

Doesn't work in this game, because the cards are considered playing pieces the same way the dial, base or dice are.

You have 3 cards so you can track the shields and damage on each one, as well as what upgrades each ship may have, and remove upgrades as you use them or lose them.

X-Wing Expansions with model and cards are still cheaper than like a $40 Codex or Supplement.

And an $80 rules update every two years with a new $45 codex a year after that.

As a starving college student, I still make enough from side jobs to purchase ships. 700 bucks or so over 3 years aint that bad for a hobby. Not to mention if I ever wanna sell, my tournament winnings (dice, tokens, alt arts) would make me more then I invested. I don't understand the hate for an affordable minis game.