A great many people have suggested otherwise. I've lose count of the amount of times I've come across the weapon counting and the barrel counting "models." Models based on gun count alone assume all weapons are equivalent by nature.

Not in this topic.

"Again, we're discussing weapons, not gun barrels. The Lambda has four (twin) weapons, the Falcon and Decimator both have two (heavy) weapons." - FTS Gecko

"The Falcon has two primary weapons, not eight.

The Lambda has four primary weapons, not eight." - FTS Gecko

That came across a lot like your basis is "number of weapons" and the implication that all the weapons are somehow equivalent. I'm assuming this isn't the case based on your more recent responses, but that was the point I thought you were trying to make.

Are those numbers not correct? Again, weapon power has always been a consideration, and is clearly reflected in the dice where applicable. I posted examples of this in the list earlier - both the Falcon and Shuttle were featured.

Evading the question, huh?

If the XG-1 had the Falcon's quads, would it have an attack of two?

I'm not avoiding anything. If the XG-1 had the Falcon's quads, it would have the Falcon's attack dice (and firing arcs). It doesn't. It has the same canonical armament as the Y-Wing and Z-95, so it would have the same number of attack dice - 2. The point is moot, and borderline reductio ad absurdum at that.

It's not an anomaly, it's a counterpoint to weapon counting, as is the Firespray, as is the Decimator. When you take into account everything else that affects attack values (that weapon counting models assume are equivalent across the board) it makes perfect sense.

No, it's an anomaly - like the Moldy Crow - in that it's completely OTT canonical weaponry doesn't fit within the scope of the game (much like it didn't fit within the scope of the X-Wing PC games either and was significantly reduced there as well).

Four twin linked weapons on the Shuttle as standard - ten (10!) on military models. Four twin linked weapons AND a blaster turret on the Moldy Crow, where the stock HWK-290 has none at all . Anomalies.

The Firespray and Decimator, however, are more than covered in covered in "weighting for weapon power", so in no way shape or form can be compared to the Lambda or Moldy Crow. I can add them to the list, if you like.

It is people counting barrels or counting weapons, treating it as an inviolate model and claiming a ship must have X attack based on that that I object to.

Again, no one has done that here - that a concept that you've introduced to the thread yourself.

And we will still arrive at a atk of 2 for the gunboat (barring any "fudging).

Except fudging is a huge factor when the number of attack values are so limited and have such a huge impact. Obvious fudges are the Kihraxz, the Moldy Crow and as FTSGecko points out, the Lambda. The Lambda I can rationalise as being on a poorly maneuverable platform (same way I rationalise the 4 attack of the phantom as being mostly down to its attack method rather than it outgunning everything ever) but the other two I can't really disagree with Gecko on: they're highly anomalous when you take everything canonical into consideration. But they play better with the attack values they have (imagine a 3 attack HWK) and the Kihraxs could potentially fall into the pit of the TIE advanced pre-fix if it didn't.

The Assault Gunboat I think would struggle at a primary of two: HLC/Mangler would be autoinclude if it had a cannon slot and its canonical ion cannons would be a losing proposition. At its point cost, I think barring some clever mechanic in the vein of BTL-A4 (like a low cost title that added an ion effect to its primary) it probably would be fudged to 3.

Are those numbers not correct? Again, weapon power has always been a consideration, and is clearly reflected in the dice where applicable. I posted examples of this in the list earlier - both the Falcon and Shuttle were featured.

They're correct but the context and manner in which they were quoted, at least to me, bore the implication that they're comparable. The Y-wing and Assault Gunboat are definitely comparable as they're the same gun on a similar maneuverability platform, but do the Lambda and Falcon have the same weapons? No; you've stated such yourself. Therefore, comparing their weapon count's a little misleading, especially in the middle of the discussion on attack dice/weapon count correllation. That's how I ended up thinking you were defending weapon count without considering other variables too.

Again, no one has done that here - that a concept that you've introduced to the thread yourself.

"Disagree with this. The XG-1 had two (2) laser cannons, not four like the TIE Interceptor or X-Wing. It'd be more likely to have 2 firepower as standard."

If you'd said it has the same two laser cannons as the Y-wing (which I can't disagree with) and said it'd be likely to have two dice based on canonical armament there'd have been no disagreement. I'm now fairly certain that's what you meant, but as someone who's used to seeing people saying stuff like the Defender and Phantom should have inverse attack values because the Defender's got six weapons on it and occasionally even outright say that when FFG break the weapon correlation that appears in most of the standard ships that their attack values are wrong it's very easy to intepret in language what you're expecting to see even when it's not there. I'm fairly sure I got the wrong end of the stick, and I apologise for that, but can you see how it's possible to misinterpret your statements based on the context of the other posts in this thread?

Anyway, we're going incircles here, and I suspect we're arguing against points we believe the other are making, hence the endless loop of disagreement while saying the same things.

Take two.

The attack value of a ship is an is a combination of weapon power, weapon fire rate, weapon number, the ability of the platform to maximise use of those weapons and designer fudging to make the ship fit its desired role. Are we in agreement here?

The Assault Gunboat should have 3 to differentiate itself from not only most Imperial fighters, but its counterpart, the Missile Boat. Which would seriously only have 1.

I mean come on it has one laser cannon. That's not even the 1-barrel-1-firepower BS, that's just flat out, "It has a REALLY weak gun." and that's flavorful.

You should give the player a reason to pick one over the other. Not a meta reason, but personal choice/flavor reasons.

FTSGecko's right in that its armament is represenative of 2 dice. But I agree that to be playable it needs something over that: either the ability to combo that 2 dice with other attacks Y-wing style or 3 dice.

I'd be thrilled for the Gunboat to have a BTL-A4 double attack primary, or a Fire-Link mod to mimic Ion Torpedoes which have full damage and the ion effect on top. Give me options, FFG! Just so long as it doesn't have a Lambda dial, begging for an Engine Upgrade!

It'd probably have a Y-wing or X-wing dial.

I used 19 data points, which ignored the falcon's 2/3 and didn't count wave 8.

Ship name, lasers, attack

Tie fighter, 2, 2

X wing, 2, 3

Y wing, 2, 2

Tie advanced, 2, 2

A wing, 2, 2

Slave 1, 2, 3

Tie interceptor, 4, 3

B wing, 3, 3

Tie bomber, 2, 2

Hawk, 0, 1

Lambda 4, 3

E wing, 3, 3

Tie defender, 4, 3

Z95, 2, w

Tie phantom 5, 4

Decimator, 4, 3

Outrider, 4, 2

Scyk, 2,2

Battle butterfly, 4, 3

I have no idea what the Battle Butterfly is.

The Lambda has eight on its model, the Falcon and Decimator each have eight, the Moldy Crow used to have eight on Wookiee which has since changed to 4.

four lasers, four canons. The hawk model has just the turret. I miscounted the decimator (and X wing is a typo, I calculated right)

It still goes to.7 which is a strong correlation. Number of lasers often translates directly to attack values.

Agree, it is a strong correlation- 0.7 is very very good- just looking at the number of lasers cannons on the ship gives you a good idea of predicting it's attack value translated in dice. I think people are thinking just because the plastic figure has the blaster turret as in the Hawk of Falcon these should count. And the lasers cannons, such as in defender, do not all fire at the same time, so the better way of thinking of attack is damage over a certain time period- 5 seconds?. So the 1 dice per laser never made sense to begin with but helps you figure how much 'attack' the ship has.

I think the base Assault Gunboat with 2 attack is fair... of course with some extra goodies.

Can we have an escort shuttle as well?. Always hated forgetting about the rear arc and dying messily.

I'd love to see the escort shuttle in game It's always been a favourite design from the games.