As I've mentioned in another thread somewhere, ship stats are abstract. They are a mix of everything, from fire rate of weapons to power levels to amount of guns shooting dakka to aggregate pilot aiming/maneuvering.
Precisely. Which is why "count the guns" annoys me so disproportionately.
As far as I can tell, the "count the guns" rule has always applied to small-base ships, so I don't know why it annoys you. Large-base ships have always been different.
As far as I can tell, the "count the guns" rule has always applied to small-base ships
Firstly, no it doesn't.
Secondly, people try to extrapolate it: they assume that because there's a correlation (there is if you omit all the large bases, the new wave and the HWK) that makes it an inviolate law and if ships break it then their attack values are wrong. It's "pirate numbers go down, global warming goes up, so get more pirates to save the world" level reasoning.
Edited by TIE PilotIt's kinda loose.
4 gun ships typically had firepower 3.
2 gun ships typically had 2.
But you do get atypical examples, and that's where the system breaks and shouldn't be used.
It's a rule of thumb to use when you don't need to be accurate. Ultimately though, it's an abstract.
I used 19 data points, which ignored the falcon's 2/3 and didn't count wave 8.
Ship name, lasers, attack
Tie fighter, 2, 2
X wing, 2, 3
Y wing, 2, 2
Tie advanced, 2, 2
A wing, 2, 2
Slave 1, 2, 3
Tie interceptor, 4, 3
B wing, 3, 3
Tie bomber, 2, 2
Hawk, 0, 1
Lambda 4, 3
E wing, 3, 3
Tie defender, 4, 3
Z95, 2, w
Tie phantom 5, 4
Decimator, 4, 3
Outrider, 4, 2
Scyk, 2,2
Battle butterfly, 4, 3
I have no idea what the Battle Butterfly is.
The Lambda has eight on its model, the Falcon and Decimator each have eight, the Moldy Crow used to have eight on Wookiee which has since changed to 4.
It still goes to.7 which is a strong correlation. Number of lasers often translates directly to attack values.
They both look stupid.
This.
Wookiee claims those spikes on the wings are blaster cannons. The Lambda has a clear eight, you can't just label thing as cannon because they break the trend. The Falcon's 8 is also missing.
And then we've got the Aggressor, with no modelled guns.
It still goes to.7 which is a strong correlation. Number of lasers often translates directly to attack values.
Directly? Then you'll be able to provide the proportionality factor then? And the predicted attack values by it?
Haters gonna hate. I can still outmaneuver everything slower than a squint in my Gunboat, but then X-Wing vs TIE Fighter is still one of the best Star Wars games of all time. That's entirely why I want to see both boats in the minis game.
Wookiee claims those spikes on the wings are blaster cannons. The Lambda has a clear eight, you can't just label thing as cannon because they break the trend. The Falcon's 8 is also missing.
And then we've got the Aggressor, with no modelled guns.
It still goes to.7 which is a strong correlation. Number of lasers often translates directly to attack values.
Directly? Then you'll be able to provide the proportionality factor then? And the predicted attack values by it?
(lasers/2)+1 covers 80% of all ships that have fixed attack values. The decimater, the outrider, and the agressor of the twenty remaining ships? Seems pretty accurate!
As I said, generally it's: if amount of guns higher than 3 then amount of guns -1 else amount of guns = firepower.
But this is a generalization that does not always occur.
It's not just the guns though, because cannons don't count. The defender has six guns, but only four lasers.
I agree it's just a generalization, but it holds true for the vast majority of ships, and really only breaks down on the large base.
Wookiee claims those spikes on the wings are blaster cannons. The Lambda has a clear eight, you can't just label thing as cannon because they break the trend. The Falcon's 8 is also missing.
And then we've got the Aggressor, with no modelled guns.
Number of barrels = / = number of weapons. No one's made any claims about "weapon barrels" in this thread about barrels other than you.
The Falcon has two primary weapons, not eight.
The Lambda has four primary weapons, not eight.
Good effort derailing the thread, by the way.
BACK ON TOPIC........
VWOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH.
She's a beaut.
But **** gaming music was MIDI as hell when she first made an appearance.
...and that midi was glorious.
Why does everyone seem to forget one of the best features of the Missile Boat? It ALSO HAD A TRACTOR BEAM!!
So did the TIE defender and, as everyone forgets, the Firespray.
And the Avenger which actually introduced it.
Number of barrels = / = number of weapons. No one's made any claims about "weapon barrels" in this thread about barrels other than you.
It's incredibly hard to tell what you're referring to when you keep changing your answer.
The Falcon has two primary weapons, not eight.
So one of the TIE fighter's guns is the equivalent of a Decimator or Falcon's quad turret? (And when I say Falcon, I mean the proper Falcon, not ORS. The Falcon the miniature represents.) They've both got two weapons. Surely they should have the same firepower, no?
If you actually think that I don't know why I'm bothering with a lost cause, and if you don't believe that why are you saying you are?
How people can think that every weapon on every ship in the game is equivalent is beyond me.
(lasers/2)+1 covers 80% of all ships that have fixed attack values.
That'd mean the B-wing and E-wing have 2.5 attack, the HWK has 1.5 and The TIE phantom has 3.5.
Yes, there's a rough, a very rough, trend, because sticking more weapons on usually means it has more firepower. But sticking bigger and/or better weapons does that too. The TIE phantom does not thematically outgun every ship in the game up to and including a Corellian Corvette.
Small based starfighters with three or four normal sized weapons usually are in 3 firepower region and ships with two usually are in the two. That's usually, it's not inviolate, it's not hard and fast and there are plenty of exceptions. It certainly doesn't mean that any ships that break it are wrong, and it's definitely NOT a good way of deciding how much firepower a ship should have. You determine that by the role you want the ship you're designing to play in the game, and a sense of its in-universe firepower.
If they were to hypothetically release a starfighter with a single turbolaser as its primary weapon, its attack value would not be 1.
Why does everyone seem to forget one of the best features of the Missile Boat? It ALSO HAD A TRACTOR BEAM!!
So did the TIE defender and, as everyone forgets, the Firespray.
And the Avenger which actually introduced it.
Fairly sure Boba was there first.
Edited by TIE PilotWell, at least now you're admitting there is a trend.
As I've mentioned in another thread somewhere, ship stats are abstract. They are a mix of everything, from fire rate of weapons to power levels to amount of guns shooting dakka to aggregate pilot aiming/maneuvering.
Don't forget "feels right"
Well, at least now you're admitting there is a trend.
I said that ages back, but you have to stick a lot of limitations on it to make it work. If you stick every ship in the game on it it doesn't work, and if you start taking ships out then your rule has more and more exceptions and becomes less of a rule and more of a guideline. Yes, the number of weapons affects its firepower, but it's not the only thing that affects its firepower. On the set of ships for which the relationship holds, the guns are similar. You can't equate a TIE's gun to a Falcon's quad though.
Take the Assault Gunboat. It's got two laser cannons on it. That doesn't lock it to two firepower. Granted, it probably would if it were meant to act as a Y-wing, but if the design demanded it it could easily have three attack. I probably would give it three attack to be honest if it didn't come with a BTL-A4 esque title card or something similar.
As Darius said, firepower isn't just weapon count. It's also the power of those weapons and the ship's ability to use them.
Edited by TIE PilotI don't get why people keep comparing the Gunboat to a Y-Wing.
This is an Assault Gunboat.
This is a Missile Boat.
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This has been a Public Service Announcement by Captain Lackwit, brought to you by The Imperial Office of Nomenclature and Recognition.
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No but seriously guys, the XG-1 is a heavier, more ponderous Imperial vessel equipped with Ion Cannons, laser cannons, and ordnance. Were it in XWMG, it'd like have 3 firepower. It's a powerful, capable fighter. But it is not a Missile Boat.
The Missile Boat would have about 1, and even then it'd be fairly useless. It was designed to kill TIE Defenders- the best TIE Fighter in the Imperial Navy. That should give you a good idea of what it can do. However, it is not an Assault Gunboat.
Both are ugly and should never be made... another PSA.. thank you...
I don't get why people keep comparing the Gunboat to a Y-Wing.
Similar role. Long range strike craft with laser, ion and missile armament, heavily shielding but less than stellar maneuverability.
I suppose? I always saw it as their X-Wing.
Hm. I wonder why these were never in SWG...
The Y-wing and gunboat have relatively comparable speed and agility, both used as raiding craft, both have the same 2 laser 2 ion combo. It's an obvious comparison. SWG... SWG was special with imperial ships. On the one hand it gave us the Aggressor and the Decimator (say what you want about the aggressor, I thought it was unique, and I always loved the Deci) On the other hand it did ignore the gunboat, missile boat, Defender (until the end really) and other ships. Galaxies I found also had a weakness in the game mechanic where essentially the smallest hitbox wins in a dogfight.
Edited by DariusAPBActually, it just occurred to me. The B-wing really blows the laser/firepower/cannon rules clean out of the water.
3 lasers, 3 ions, 3 autoblasters was the official armament. 2 Cannon slots would be required.