Duplicating my response in the other thread on this topic:

Makes sense, but it's still an issue, and a departure from what seems to be the SOP for FFG, that you get everything you might need in the package.

Cluster mines look like they stay on the board like Prox mines do, but if you only get 1 per pack you don't even have enough to equip the Tie Punisher without the Extra Mutations upgrade. In theory you could have as many as 3 of them on the board at once, per Tie Punisher.

Now I get that FFG may not have room for 3 of those tokens per package. But at the same time that means you have upgrades you can't use because there's no token for them.

How does proximity mines currently work? Don't they last until detonated?

Yes they do.

Which isn't quite as much of an issue. You get 1 prox mine token with every prox mine card. But with the Tie Punisher, you effectively get 2 cluster mines per package but only 1 token, assuming they don't include an extra token, and just didn't show it on that picture.

In case anyone hasn't noticed before, in a tournament setting you have to have an official copy of all cards that you are using, including tokens. So you will have to purchase enough of the ships containing said tokens to legally play the game. This is nothing new to the game. To use a card, you have to own/borrow that card, and the same will be true about these bomb tokens. No problem, just a company producing fun toys for us to play with, but also trying to make enough money to be profitable.

Cards yes - tokens not so much - third party tokens are commonplace

I expect there will be acrylic tokens on the market within days of the release of the new wave

All games that require purchases to play somewhat favor the "wealthier" players. I would love to have C3PO, but I haven't ever had the cash to get the CR90 for one, or maybe two, non-epic cards that I would use on a semi-regular basis. Heck before the E-wing came out, anyone wanting to run 4 Adv Sensor B-Wings had to purchase 4 Shuttles. I don't see this as any different, nor have I seen this question about Prox Mines before. They are only available on two $30 ships, so to get them in large numbers you have to buy many Firesprays or IG-88s.

Nothing new here, nothing to see, move on!

Duplicating my response in the other thread on this topic:

The problem, of course, is that there's limited space on the cardboard. And if they didn't have room for more than one new, enormous token, then they only had two feasible choices: introduce cool new bombs with one token, or don't introduce any cool new bombs at all.

I'll have to agree with the others. Yes Vorpal this may be their justification but either way... If this is what is included in the box it will be the first time you don't have enough tokens to go with your ship, regardless of reason.

All games that require purchases to play somewhat favor the "wealthier" players. I would love to have C3PO, but I haven't ever had the cash to get the CR90 for one, or maybe two, non-epic cards that I would use on a semi-regular basis. Heck before the E-wing came out, anyone wanting to run 4 Adv Sensor B-Wings had to purchase 4 Shuttles. I don't see this as any different, nor have I seen this question about Prox Mines before. They are only available on two $30 ships, so to get them in large numbers you have to buy many Firesprays or IG-88s.

Nothing new here, nothing to see, move on!

Perhaps nothing new but definitely expanded. We've been talking for some time about upgrade cards and being required to buy additional ships (without going to a third party). Now the question is, has this model been expanded to tokens as well?

I expect there will be acrylic tokens on the market within days of the release of the new wave

Sure, and they'll be legal to use in tournaments. But it's still a departure from FFG's normal way of doing things. I've never been forced to buy extra tokens to use an upgrade or ship.

I'm not complaining about it really, if I have to do that then so be it. Or else I'll work something else out.

It's also possible that there will be 2 cluster mine tokens per package, just because we don't see them doesn't mean they can't include them. Adding the 2nd set may of just taken up more room then they wanted.

All games that require purchases to play somewhat favor the "wealthier" players. I would love to have C3PO, but I haven't ever had the cash to get the CR90 for one, or maybe two, non-epic cards that I would use on a semi-regular basis. Heck before the E-wing came out, anyone wanting to run 4 Adv Sensor B-Wings had to purchase 4 Shuttles. I don't see this as any different, nor have I seen this question about Prox Mines before. They are only available on two $30 ships, so to get them in large numbers you have to buy many Firesprays or IG-88s.

Nothing new here, nothing to see, move on!

The Threepio card is expensive - but look on the bright side - it comes with a free CR-90

I expect there will be acrylic tokens on the market within days of the release of the new wave

Sure, and they'll be legal to use in tournaments. But it's still a departure from FFG's normal way of doing things. I've never been forced to buy extra tokens to use an upgrade or ship.

I'm not complaining about it really, if I have to do that then so be it. Or else I'll work something else out.

It's also possible that there will be 2 cluster mine tokens per package, just because we don't see them doesn't mean they can't include them. Adding the 2nd set may of just taken up more room then they wanted.

I see third party tokens used in tourneys all the time - I assumed that provided both players consent to it it's not a problem - just like third party movement templates and range rulers

Duplicating my response in the other thread on this topic:

Makes sense, but it's still an issue, and a departure from what seems to be the SOP for FFG, that you get everything you might need in the package.

Cluster mines look like they stay on the board like Prox mines do, but if you only get 1 per pack you don't even have enough to equip the Tie Punisher without the Extra Mutations upgrade. In theory you could have as many as 3 of them on the board at once, per Tie Punisher.

Now I get that FFG may not have room for 3 of those tokens per package. But at the same time that means you have upgrades you can't use because there's no token for them.

You also don't have enough Torp or Missile cards in one blister to completely deck out one ship. You would actually need 4 sets of tokens and two cards if you have ExMun and want to put two of any bomb on one of the Heavy Bombers. Any you do have all you need to field one ship: base, pegs, ship model, dial, ship chips, & ship cards. All of the other cards are optional upgrades that if they create tokens they have the copy of that token needed to use that one card.

Using your and other's logic, the two new Heavy Bombers should come with two copies of every Torp, Missile, and Bomb ever created so that they can be used out of the package correctly, and two sets of target locks for the one pilot who gets double locks, and enough Ion tokens for every possible ship that could be hit by Ion Bomb, etc.

It is not going to happen. I just don't get why people are complaining soooooo much about being forced to buy more toys so they can play a game produced and supported, very well if I do say so myself, by a company that is trying to make money. FFG's quality, customer service, and game balance are very rare in a company these days.

Ok, that is my last rant during my lunch break. Carry on with the whining (not only directed to the quoted poster, but to many here on this FFG provided forum)!

Carry on with the whining

Wow, that's whining? You have a fairly screwed up definition of the word in that case. You also suffer from a complete lack of logic in your above post. All I did was state the facts as we know them.

Using your and other's logic

No, because those don't come with the expansion in question. Not sure how you missed the distinction, but I'll spell it out to you.

In every other FFG expansion for X-Wing, you get enough tokens to use every upgrade and option that the ship has. For example you get a evade token with the VT-49, even though it doesn't have an evade action. But due to Ysanne, you now have the ability to take an evade action. So logically they included the evade token. You have everything you need to use all the upgrades included.

With the Tie Punisher, if they only include 1 cluster mine token, that is no longer true. Because you do not have enough tokens to use the upgrades that come in the expansion . Again, not sure how this can be misunderstood.

The fact that you can equip 2 cluster mines doesn't matter either. Since each expansion pack only comes with one cluster mine upgrade.

But based on your post... You clearly don't have a clue what the rest of us are talking about.

Oh and the pilot that can use 2 TL's. That's not really an issue, because if you have a core set, which you are expected to have. You have more TL tokens then you need to run a S&V list.

I just don't get why people are complaining soooooo much about being forced to buy more toys

Buying more toys doesn't help. Because for each expansion pack I get even more upgrades that I can't fully use, because of a lack of the tokens.

If I buy 4 Tie Punishers, I could build a list that uses all 4 Cluster Mines, and all 4 Extra Mutations, which in theory would let me put upto 8 Cluster Mines on the table at once. Yet I can't because I only have 4 cluster mine tokens. I would need to buy 8 Tie Punishers to use those 4 upgrades.

Again, can't see how this is hard to understand or why anyone would consider the question being posed as complaining about anything.

For tournaments you need the cards, cardboard and all.

Proxying the mines will be difficult for casual play.

But for any other upgrade card: I bought the game, therefore I see myself entitled to be allowed to make copies/prints of cards I wish/like to have for my personal use.

Or the lazy variety: print a squad from one of the squad builder and skip the cards

Or the lazy variety: print a squad from one of the squad builder and skip the cards

The cards aren't the issue, it's the tokens. Which isn't something printing the list out helps with.'

Acrylic is an option, but it's also a departure from how FFG normally does things. I'm not really complaining about it, just saying that we can't get full use of the Extra Mutations upgrade and the Cluster Mine upgrade or Prox mine upgrade without extra tokens.

I wouldn't expect them to include extra Prox Mine tokens in the Tie Punisher expansion since it doesn't come with that upgrade in the first place. But I would of expected 2 cluster mine tokens, since you can use two of them with what comes in that expansion pack.

This topic feels really asinine. How do you guys have a sudden lack of bomb tokens. and if for some reason you do have a lack of tokens, all the people you play with are bomber types who are all using their tokens too?

Sorry, it looks like you guys are bitching to *****. Just calls it as i sees it.

This topic feels really asinine. How do you guys have a sudden lack of bomb tokens. and if for some reason you do have a lack of tokens, all the people you play with are bomber types who are all using their tokens too?

Sorry, it looks like you guys are bitching to *****. Just calls it as i sees it.

The post is about the upcoming ship the TIE Punisher, which to all appearances won't contain enough bomb tokens for the cluster mine upgrade included with the ship when the ship is equipped with the marquee upgrade called extra munitions, also included with the ship. This would be a departure from the normal policy of including all tokens you could need for the ship to run the upgrades it is sold with.

You may be calling it how you see it, but I think you need glasses because you don't see it very clearly at all.

Just calls it as i sees it.

Apparently you're not looking very hard then, if you can't see the issue.

I buy 2 Tie Punisher expansions. I build a list that includes 2 Tie Punisher's in it, on each one I put one Cluster Mine upgrade, and the Extra Munitions upgrade. That means both Tie Punishers now have 4 Cluster Mines.

They can drop at most 2 per turn, but after 2 turns I could have 4 cluster mines on the board. However if the Tie Punisher only comes with 1 cluster mine token, I can't actually drop those other two until someone hits the ones I've already put on the table.

Borrowing one may be an option, but what if that person is using theirs, or didn't bring them?

The whole point is that FFG normally puts everything you might need into a given expansion pack, but in this case if there's only one 1 token you are limited to one dropped bomb at a time. Which runs pretty contrary to the whole idea of the extra munitions upgrade.

To be fair, there have been occasions when not everything was included. The millenium falcon comes with a shield upgrade card, but does not include enough shield tokens for an upgraded falcon.

Really (really) minor issue, but it does show that this is not totally unprecedented.

Sorry, if my response was too harsh. But you can use ExMun with the ship you bought it with, without the need for two sets of the bomb template/tokens. You just have to use it with any of the Torps/Missiles that come with the expansion set. You still will have to spend $40 retail to use the new mines with ExMun. To use Prox Mines you would have to spend $100. You can always photocopy the templates for casual play. Also we may all be lucky and get two copies of the bomb templates in the Heavy Bombers, but unfortunately I doubt it.

Also can you play an Ion bomb if the cardboard ion tokens are not in the set with the bomb? Can you use a focus or target lock if they are not on the 3-5 sheets of tokens/templates that come with the expansion? Yes, because these items come with other sets/starter which you need to play. Which is more money that you have to spend on the game, just like if you CHOOSE to play ExMun with a bomb that you don't have enough templates to drop two. Some people consider C3PO an autoi-include with the Falcon, but if you choose to include that upgrade, then you have to buy the $100 CR90.

I guess what I am trying to say is that this ship will be perfectly usable out of the package, and maybe, just maybe, there will be rules on the explanation cards that come with these Heavy Bombers that will explain what to do in the situation that you only have 1 copy of the bomb, but have ExMun equipped.

I'm guessing the acrylic tokens will be in an OP kit, and the third party sites will have them available. I do understand the issue, but I'm not overly concerned.

I do understand the issue, but I'm not overly concerned.

I don't think anyone is, despite the name calling by some people. I see no pitchforks, torches or angry mob's. Just people pointing out that there may an issue with the extra munitions upgrade and two two mines we have.

But at the same time that means you have upgrades you can't use because there's no token for them.

Pardon, but I'm not getting this at all. I wouldn't say the rule of thumb has ever been that you can play every combination of everything in the package. Or as the OP said "every X-Wing expansion has been self-sustainable, which means that every box cames with all necessary cards, dials, templates and tokens to be playable by itself".

Every card in this box is playable by itself without any other expansions.

You can field Extra Munitions. With a torpedo that comes in the expansion.

You can field the Cluster Mine. Without Extra Munitions. (presuming it is even a persistent token set)

The HWK-290 and Core set don't come with infinite Focus tokens, and Tycho only comes with so many stress. The YT-1300 comes with zero Target Locks and Weapons Engineer allowing for 2. Decimator? No Target Locks there either. Nobody ever made a promise that you could do everything within the realm of possibility with an expansion.

The Prox mines were one ofs that only came with the firespray before the aggressor came out. That was annoying too.

I would imagine that future xpacs with any ordnance would come with the extra token.

Just take a piece of white paper, trace out the original token, then cut out a second token from the paper.

But at the same time that means you have upgrades you can't use because there's no token for them.

Pardon, but I'm not getting this at all. I wouldn't say the rule of thumb has ever been that you can play every combination of everything in the package. Or as the OP said "every X-Wing expansion has been self-sustainable, which means that every box cames with all necessary cards, dials, templates and tokens to be playable by itself".

Every card in this box is playable by itself without any other expansions.

You can field Extra Munitions. With a torpedo that comes in the expansion.

You can field the Cluster Mine. Without Extra Munitions. (presuming it is even a persistent token set)

The HWK-290 and Core set don't come with infinite Focus tokens, and Tycho only comes with so many stress. The YT-1300 comes with zero Target Locks and Weapons Engineer allowing for 2. Decimator? No Target Locks there either. Nobody ever made a promise that you could do everything within the realm of possibility with an expansion.

I think there's a pretty big difference between what the thread is discussing and the examples you used, namely, all the missing things are also found in the core set which is required to play the game as well as in most every other expansion pack as well. Not so for cluster mines.

Don't think it's a big deal, but it is a departure from the norm for sure.

Nobody ever made a promise that you could do everything within the realm of possibility with an expansion.

I don't think they ever made a promise like that either. But not being able to use a 2nd bomb that you get with Extra Munitions is not the same thing as not having infinite focus tokens, or stress tokens. Besides you get a number of extras of those in the core set.

The TL is the same way.

So show me an example of an upgrade that comes in a given pack that you can't use fully because you don't have enough tokens between the expansion and the core set... Cluster Mines is persistent based on the article. It says the tokens detonate when a ship's base overlaps it.

It's not a huge issue, but it does make using Extra Munitions more difficult when you're short tokens.