Something just occured to me about Extra Munitions. I too looked at it and thought "nice for bombers, but ordnance is still eh." But just now I thought of something.

Say you have a TIE bomber and a TIE advanced, both PS2 with no other upgrades. You've got two cluster missiles to equip. Where do you put them?

One on each.

Spreading your munitions out both makes it harder to destroy the carrier and allows you to fire both more quickly and means your missiles cover more arcs. It's an all around better idea than loading the TIE bomber. Unless you're trying to be thematic, you wouldn't put the second shot on the TIE bomber.

What Extra Munitions does is reduce the cost of stacking munitions. Loading up the bomber is still less tactically sound than loading both the TIE advanced and the TIE bomber, but it's now significantly cheaper and moreso as you stack more and more munitions. It then becomes a game of getting the most out of EM: the more boom you equip the cheaper the boom gets, but boom you don't fire is still wasted points.

And here's the bit that occured to me.

The problem Extra Munitions fixed would still exist if they brought out a universal ordnance fix instead.

So maybe EM didn't universally fix ordnance because it's meant to. Maybe, assuming the designers agree with the forum on missiles and torpedoes not exactly being the best thing since weaponised bread, there's still something else in the works, and ordnance'll be fixed the way they fixed the phantom: not with a release but with an errata.

There isnt many choices is there if they're not printing new cards.

If they use an errata fix, they have 2 choices.

1. fix the cost. example: Concussion missiles cost should read 2 and not 4.

2. fix how they work. example: Concussion missiles text should read: spend your target lock and discard this card to perform an attack. The target lock may be used to modify this attack as well. You may then change 1 of your blank results to a hit.

Extra Munitions works on things that already were working; Homing Missiles, Ion Pulse Missiles, Flechette Torpedoes, and Bombs. These didn't need a fix, but Extra Munitions makes it better to use Bombers to take them. Would you have taken a Tie Bomber w/ Ion Pulse Missile and Flechette Torpedo for 21 pts? Probably not. Would you take the same load out with Extra Munitions for 23 pts? Heck yea! For just 2 more points, you get a ship that becomes a lot more useful in the game. It's loadout becomes twice what it was for just 2 pts.

This thread made me realise that i want weaponised bread.

Well played.

While I do agree that EM might only be a part of a fix, or the beginning of a wave of changes meant to buff ordnance, I do not think that it alone is a significant improvement to carrying multiple ordnance

In your example the difference between carrying 2 cluster missiles on the bomber and 1 on the TIE advance and taking 1 cluster missile on each with EM on the bomber is only 2 pts. Not quite what I would call significant.

Plus as you pointed out missiles are typically seen as a pts trap because if your ship goes down without firing them you literally just wasted ~4 pts. This combined with the difficulty of lining up a shot at the correct range, and getting a target lock on the target you want to use the missiles on usually means that taking more than 1 missile/torp on a ship is a waste of pts because you likely wont get to use it.

This has not changed at all. The only difference is now you would only lose the cost of EM if you do not get to fire your second missile/torpedo as opposed to losing the full price of the 2nd missile.

I am not trying to say EM is pointless or a totally failed attempt to buff ordnance. But without seeing the other cards in the wave or knowing what else FFG might have planned, I do not think EM is nearly enough to make multiple ordnance more competitive.

Still hopeful theres more goodness ahead though

There isnt many choices is there if they're not printing new cards.

If they use an errata fix, they have 2 choices.

1. fix the cost. example: Concussion missiles cost should read 2 and not 4.

2. fix how they work. example: Concussion missiles text should read: spend your target lock and discard this card to perform an attack. The target lock may be used to modify this attack as well. You may then change 1 of your blank results to a hit.

The acquiring and spending the target lock is part of the mechanics, and they're not going to make the target lock not spend because IPM ahd Homing have that as a special trait.

No, I think what's more likely, if they do a rule change, is to change things without changing the wording of the cards. Either by changing how damage is applied (evade results only affecting the chance to hit, for example) or by not making the ordnance and primary attacks exclusive. A proton torpedo is easily worth 4 points, but a proton torpedo minus a three dice attack is not.

A 23-point Bomber with 3 Prox Mines? Or a 25-point Bomber with 3 Proton Bombs? You could obliterate some poor sap with just two of those ships in a squad. It's an especially good fix for anything that can carry multiple ordnance.

About this supposed fix, where is the quote exactly? I only remember Alex saying that Wave 7 would boost the Bombers, but I don't recall him saying that there would be a ordnance fix included in the wave. I think that the community only assumed that it was what he meant by it.

Bombers got a huge boost with this upgrade, 2 new ordnances and 3 new bombs.

For my part, I will be curious to try Scimitar Squadron+Extra Munitions+Ion Pulse Missiles+Proton Rockets+Munition Failsafe=25pts

Ionize the ship while keeping your TL then get close to where he'll be and unleash your Proton Rockets for a 4 dice+TL+F attack.

[...]

The problem Extra Munitions fixed would still exist if they brought out a universal ordnance fix instead.

So maybe EM didn't universally fix ordnance because it's meant to. Maybe, assuming the designers agree with the forum on missiles and torpedoes not exactly being the best thing since weaponised bread, there's still something else in the works, and ordnance'll be fixed the way they fixed the phantom: not with a release but with an errata.

I think you're on to something...at least it provides reason for keeping up my hope for the various torpedoes and missiles and single shot carriers like the X-Wing that need some love.

Also +1 on the weaponized bread.

another problem is there is no consensus on how ordnance SHOULD work. how powerful should it be? Some say its power is fine, just needs to be cheaper to slot into more lists.

should missiles and torps be deleting ships from the board on turn 2?

Extra Munitions really encourages you to deck out your bombers. Thats where you get the most bang for your buck. I think FFG got tired of seeing people run naked bombers. Even older bad ord improves now, 8pts for 2 proton torps... not bad. 11pts for 2 proton torps and 2 assault missles.... I can certainly see many more loaded down bombers being used.

Homing Missiles are worth it now as you get two for 7 pts. You don't even need Jonus for that.

The acquiring and spending the target lock is part of the mechanics, and they're not going to make the target lock not spend because IPM ahd Homing have that as a special trait.

Personally, I don't think that Ion Pulse Missile loses anything if other ordnance also gains the TL use. It's not like there is another Ion Missile option that you can take that doesn't give it to you. As for the Homing Missile....well....it at least still has the power to block the evade token. Also, you don't have to use the TL for that shot with a Homing Missile, which means you can keep it for the next round. That could be worth a point. Or....I don't think it's a terrible choice to allow all ordnance to use their requirement in the shot.

A 23-point Bomber with 3 Prox Mines? Or a 25-point Bomber with 3 Proton Bombs? You could obliterate some poor sap with just two of those ships in a squad. It's an especially good fix for anything that can carry multiple ordnance.

There is the trap of loading too much ordnance on one ship to have it killed. So....while you do get ordnance economy, the more you load on it the worse Extra Munitions becomes, really. There is a balance point that is good, but beyond that, you are most likely wasting your points.

Extra Munitions really encourages you to deck out your bombers. Thats where you get the most bang for your buck. I think FFG got tired of seeing people run naked bombers. Even older bad ord improves now, 8pts for 2 proton torps... not bad. 11pts for 2 proton torps and 2 assault missles.... I can certainly see many more loaded down bombers being used.

Don't forget, you'll need some beefy bombers to bust-up a Corvette/Raider.

A 23-point Bomber with 3 Prox Mines? Or a 25-point Bomber with 3 Proton Bombs? You could obliterate some poor sap with just two of those ships in a squad. It's an especially good fix for anything that can carry multiple ordnance.

You can't have 2 copies of Extra Munitions since its limited, and I don't see any other way to get another bomb.

A 23-point Bomber with 3 Prox Mines? Or a 25-point Bomber with 3 Proton Bombs? You could obliterate some poor sap with just two of those ships in a squad. It's an especially good fix for anything that can carry multiple ordnance.

Eh? I'm not sure how you get three. It's either two on the Bomber, Y-wing or VT-49 or four on the K-wing/TIE punisher.

Homing Missiles are worth it now as you get two for 7 pts. You don't even need Jonus for that.

The acquiring and spending the target lock is part of the mechanics, and they're not going to make the target lock not spend because IPM ahd Homing have that as a special trait.

Personally, I don't think that Ion Pulse Missile loses anything if other ordnance also gains the TL use. It's not like there is another Ion Missile option that you can take that doesn't give it to you. As for the Homing Missile....well....it at least still has the power to block the evade token. Also, you don't have to use the TL for that shot with a Homing Missile, which means you can keep it for the next round. That could be worth a point. Or....I don't think it's a terrible choice to allow all ordnance to use their requirement in the shot.

A 23-point Bomber with 3 Prox Mines? Or a 25-point Bomber with 3 Proton Bombs? You could obliterate some poor sap with just two of those ships in a squad. It's an especially good fix for anything that can carry multiple ordnance.

There is the trap of loading too much ordnance on one ship to have it killed. So....while you do get ordnance economy, the more you load on it the worse Extra Munitions becomes, really. There is a balance point that is good, but beyond that, you are most likely wasting your points.

I suppose it depends on how you'd like to look at it. For me, personally, I wouldn't mind flying multiples of those in a squad because I really enjoy bombs and haven't had many issues with them.

For the same price as a Bomber with 2x Homing Missile (assuming 1 + Extra Munitions), you could also have 3 Proximity Mines which could totally change the maneuvering options for your opponent (and yourself). I think it really caters to the diversity of playstyles available for the Bomber.

There isnt many choices is there if they're not printing new cards.

If they use an errata fix, they have 2 choices.

1. fix the cost. example: Concussion missiles cost should read 2 and not 4.

2. fix how they work. example: Concussion missiles text should read: spend your target lock and discard this card to perform an attack. The target lock may be used to modify this attack as well. You may then change 1 of your blank results to a hit.

Concs aren't the best example - with the ability to flip a blank, what you really want is focus on top - not a reroll.

Same goes for other ordnance which doesn't require the TL to be spent (homing missiles, IPMs)

Proton torps are the opposite - with its built in mini focus you want a reroll on top.

I'm of the opinion that the best way around it is to introduce a new action (and associated token) that can be spent in place of a TL - and isn't removed at the end of a turn - that way you can choose the best action to go with the particular ordnance you have in the pipe.

This thread made me realise that i want weaponised bread.

Well played.

That would be Terry Pratchett's dwarf bread

Ah, in my excitement I didn't see the Limited note at the top of Extra Munitions. Unfortunate =\ no 3-bomb shenanigans then.

There is the trap of loading too much ordnance on one ship to have it killed. So....while you do get ordnance economy, the more you load on it the worse Extra Munitions becomes, really. There is a balance point that is good, but beyond that, you are most likely wasting your points.

Without a doubt the more you load it the better EM becomes. But as you said, discount ordnance is wasted points if you never fire it, so you've got to balance the mounting discount with how much you believe you'll fire. Too much and it goes down still full of bombs, too little and the ordnance gets less cost efficient and you run the risk of running out too soon.

Extra Munitions works on things that already were working; Homing Missiles, Ion Pulse Missiles, Flechette Torpedoes, and Bombs. These didn't need a fix, but Extra Munitions makes it better to use Bombers to take them. Would you have taken a Tie Bomber w/ Ion Pulse Missile and Flechette Torpedo for 21 pts? Probably not. Would you take the same load out with Extra Munitions for 23 pts? Heck yea! For just 2 more points, you get a ship that becomes a lot more useful in the game. It's loadout becomes twice what it was for just 2 pts.

I dont know if i would. A 23 pt scimitar pilot still seems expensive for what you get. It certainly sounds more fun and i agree will be better than it is now. But it might just make it less bad as opposed to actually making it good.

I do 100% agree with you that the fix just makes whats already working better, and doesnt really address the shortcomings of the ordnance that isn't being played already. Very well put. I think we will see the same amount of ion pulse and flechette torps that we do now, the only difference is they will be able to be fired twice.

Heres hoping the new plasma torpedo and adv homing missile are as cost efficient as the ion pulse and flechette are

About this supposed fix, where is the quote exactly? I only remember Alex saying that Wave 7 would boost the Bombers, but I don't recall him saying that there would be a ordnance fix included in the wave. I think that the community only assumed that it was what he meant by it.

Bombers got a huge boost with this upgrade, 2 new ordnances and 3 new bombs.

For my part, I will be curious to try Scimitar Squadron+Extra Munitions+Ion Pulse Missiles+Proton Rockets+Munition Failsafe=25pts

Ionize the ship while keeping your TL then get close to where he'll be and unleash your Proton Rockets for a 4 dice+TL+F attack.

This.... exactly this...

I'm a bomber guy.. I dig em, lots.. and I run them typically with prox mines.. and the occasional proton bomb or seismic charges... this limited upgrade gets you 2 of each item you upgrade.. so as mentioned by ArdusKaine, you can't get 3 mines..but you can get 4 on a punisher... ill be flying one or 2 of those in some lists...

Homing Missiles are worth it now as you get two for 7 pts. You don't even need Jonus for that.

The acquiring and spending the target lock is part of the mechanics, and they're not going to make the target lock not spend because IPM ahd Homing have that as a special trait.

Personally, I don't think that Ion Pulse Missile loses anything if other ordnance also gains the TL use. It's not like there is another Ion Missile option that you can take that doesn't give it to you. As for the Homing Missile....well....it at least still has the power to block the evade token. Also, you don't have to use the TL for that shot with a Homing Missile, which means you can keep it for the next round. That could be worth a point. Or....I don't think it's a terrible choice to allow all ordnance to use their requirement in the shot.

A 23-point Bomber with 3 Prox Mines? Or a 25-point Bomber with 3 Proton Bombs? You could obliterate some poor sap with just two of those ships in a squad. It's an especially good fix for anything that can carry multiple ordnance.

There is the trap of loading too much ordnance on one ship to have it killed. So....while you do get ordnance economy, the more you load on it the worse Extra Munitions becomes, really. There is a balance point that is good, but beyond that, you are most likely wasting your points.

I suppose it depends on how you'd like to look at it. For me, personally, I wouldn't mind flying multiples of those in a squad because I really enjoy bombs and haven't had many issues with them.

For the same price as a Bomber with 2x Homing Missile (assuming 1 + Extra Munitions), you could also have 3 Proximity Mines which could totally change the maneuvering options for your opponent (and yourself). I think it really caters to the diversity of playstyles available for the Bomber.

Extra Munitions is Limited, so the Bomber can only carry one. That will limit you to two Proximity Mines, which is still solid.

I think the ordnance fix is more about giving better munition options, rather than fixing the old ones.

I don't think we are ever going to equip an advanced proton torpedo on any ship. ever.

However, the fix is to make the good stuff work better. Ion Torpedoes, for example, or Cluster Missiles. These can work out great. Additionally there still could be some unspoiled EPT that makes them even nicer. There is still plenty of information that we simply don't have yet.

I think the ordnance fix is more about giving better munition options, rather than fixing the old ones.

I don't think we are ever going to equip an advanced proton torpedo on any ship. ever.

However, the fix is to make the good stuff work better. Ion Torpedoes, for example, or Cluster Missiles. These can work out great. Additionally there still could be some unspoiled EPT that makes them even nicer. There is still plenty of information that we simply don't have yet.

Hey now. APTs sometimes have a home on Guri. She's probably the only pilot in the game who can make some use out of them, though she suffers from low PS to use them on a Fat Han or something.