You can buy two ion torpedoes because the Y-wing and the B-wing have two proton upgrade slots?

I dont see what the problem is here. this just allows me to mass Ionize a clump of ships, stress them with the rest of my squad (or kill them), then do it again next turn.

why are you so dead set on the idea that you cannot get two similar shots off in a row?

Barring a list that is custom-tailored to deliver ordnance by, say, distributing Target Locks around (I assume there's a ship or two around that can give someone a TL?), it is not possible to employ an R3 shot twice in a row (presumably this is by design).

Take a look:

So, you've delivered the payload at maximum range; the target is ion'd and will be going 1 forward next turn - the ideal scenario.

What maneuver do you pick to get in another R3 shot?

You can only use Ion Torpedos at Range 3? All of mine must have a misprint then.

You can only use Ion Torpedos at Range 3? All of mine must have a misprint then.

Same! Better get out that sharpy! (scribbles out the 2)

I don't think the problem with X-wings are in terms of their ordnance. The X-wing may need a different fix, but it is definitely a fix for the poor TIE Bomber, which I'll be dusting off even before Wave 7 hits (though maybe not just yet, as I've just gotten a new list to play).

True, but at the same time proton torpedoes are *the* iconic ordnance (whether from the OT or the X-wing game) and it would be nice to make using them worthwhile on something besides a TIE bomber. With the action economy, I'm not even sure they're worth it there.

Extra munitions could have been zero points and it wouldn't have fixed ordnance because of action economy.

I agree that the X-wing needs help. As the the most iconic as well as the eponymous ship of the game, the X-wing should be competitive. Maybe it could get a fix where it gets an added torp slot (free or 1 point), and then uses the EM for the discount.

However, I still think that EM is a good overall fix for more dedicated bomber craft such as the TIE Bomber, the B- and the Y-Wing.

This is a teaser with many new cards left to reveal. Everyone take a deep breath and try to fly casual.

You can only use Ion Torpedos at Range 3? All of mine must have a misprint then.

Same! Better get out that sharpy! (scribbles out the 2)

They lose value at Range 2, because your opponent is no longer losing effective agility against the weapon. You're actually better off taking a Focus action and using the BTL ion cannon than firing an Ion Torpedo at Range 2.

It's not an ordnance fix, at least not for existing ordnance.

It pays off for bombers with expensive bombs or missiles, or if you take more than two bombs (Scum Firesprays with Andrasta title will be happy).

For other ships ... well, X-s get no benefit. Y's benefit sort of. B-wings with flechette torpedoes are a wash against another flechette torps.

So while it is fun for isolcated circumstances, it's not enough. Had it been one point instead of two (and thus not equal to just a second seismic charge or flechette torpedo) I'd be a little more excited.

1 point for this upgrade would have been undercosted. You forget that it gives you a second 4 or 5 point missle/torp/bomb for each you have equipped. 2 seems very fair

1 point would have been overcosted for some ordnance out there on ships that aren't the tie bomber or one of the new wave 7 ships. Just because you get a second missile/torp/bomb that has a printed cost of 4 or 5 doesn't mean it is worth 4 or 5 points, possibly not even 2 points. And that a second would be worth as much.

Do you use Jonus with your torps? what about homing missiles? Proton Rockets? There are a variety of ways missiles and torps are great when stacked in pairs just currently we haven't had a way to do it. I don't think getting them off will be much of an issue as people seem to be making it. Shooting a cluster missile is better than just shooting 3 dice isn't it? You have to remember that for every time you roll 0 hits you will eventually roll all hits.

Y-wings and b-wings can't be fielded with jonus.

e: and the argument you make about ordnance shots being better than a regular shot is a bit sideways; an ordnance shot is almost always better than a primary shot, but their printed costs generally do not line up with value, which is why they do not perform well competitively.

You can only use Ion Torpedos at Range 3? All of mine must have a misprint then.

Same! Better get out that sharpy! (scribbles out the 2)

They lose value at Range 2, because your opponent is no longer losing effective agility against the weapon. You're actually better off taking a Focus action and using the BTL ion cannon than firing an Ion Torpedo at Range 2.

Ion Torpedoes don't have a damage cap.

It's not an ordnance fix, at least not for existing ordnance.

It pays off for bombers with expensive bombs or missiles, or if you take more than two bombs (Scum Firesprays with Andrasta title will be happy).

For other ships ... well, X-s get no benefit. Y's benefit sort of. B-wings with flechette torpedoes are a wash against another flechette torps.

So while it is fun for isolcated circumstances, it's not enough. Had it been one point instead of two (and thus not equal to just a second seismic charge or flechette torpedo) I'd be a little more excited.

1 point for this upgrade would have been undercosted. You forget that it gives you a second 4 or 5 point missle/torp/bomb for each you have equipped. 2 seems very fair

1 point would have been overcosted for some ordnance out there on ships that aren't the tie bomber or one of the new wave 7 ships. Just because you get a second missile/torp/bomb that has a printed cost of 4 or 5 doesn't mean it is worth 4 or 5 points, possibly not even 2 points. And that a second would be worth as much.

Do you use Jonus with your torps? what about homing missiles? Proton Rockets? There are a variety of ways missiles and torps are great when stacked in pairs just currently we haven't had a way to do it. I don't think getting them off will be much of an issue as people seem to be making it. Shooting a cluster missile is better than just shooting 3 dice isn't it? You have to remember that for every time you roll 0 hits you will eventually roll all hits.

Y-wings and b-wings can't be fielded with jonus.

no but they do have FCS, token support (IE kyle garvin), free action support, (cracken, lando). I just named 4 different ships/pilots that would help your own ships fire their stuff more effectively. You can throw in squad leader, dutch, just for a few more options.

You can only use Ion Torpedos at Range 3? All of mine must have a misprint then.

Same! Better get out that sharpy! (scribbles out the 2)

They lose value at Range 2, because your opponent is no longer losing effective agility against the weapon. You're actually better off taking a Focus action and using the BTL ion cannon than firing an Ion Torpedo at Range 2.

Ion Torpedoes don't have a damage cap.

Yes, which is why I picked them - they're the best case scenario, I think, for the fix.

But even then, you're still better off shooting the BTL cannon; you simply have better odds at actually planting the ion token on the target, and will inflict more damage overall regardless because you also get to shoot the primary weapon of the Y-Wing.

I think people have written off ordnance for so long that they don't even consider it in combination with other effects any more.

There are plenty of things people do to line enemies up for primary attacks that also apply to torpedoes and missiles, and plenty of abilities that increase action economy. Most of the original ordnance has built-in dice modification equivalent to a single action, and those that don't have some other special effect. New pilots and upgrade cards that are commonly seen with primary attacks will also work in conjunction with secondaries, which are now more affordable on the platforms dedicated to using them. New ships are also available that are able to carry more of them and use them more effectively.

You can only use Ion Torpedos at Range 3? All of mine must have a misprint then.

Same! Better get out that sharpy! (scribbles out the 2)

They lose value at Range 2, because your opponent is no longer losing effective agility against the weapon. You're actually better off taking a Focus action and using the BTL ion cannon than firing an Ion Torpedo at Range 2.

and if you hit multiple ships that last turn your torp should be just as effective the following round still throwing 4 dice with 4 potential damage (crits not included).

If you Turtle up with the ion cannon you can do a max 3 damage and Ion one ship, if you have the auto blaster max 2 damage at range 2 since you can't hit him with your turret.

It's not an ordnance fix, at least not for existing ordnance.

It pays off for bombers with expensive bombs or missiles, or if you take more than two bombs (Scum Firesprays with Andrasta title will be happy).

For other ships ... well, X-s get no benefit. Y's benefit sort of. B-wings with flechette torpedoes are a wash against another flechette torps.

So while it is fun for isolcated circumstances, it's not enough. Had it been one point instead of two (and thus not equal to just a second seismic charge or flechette torpedo) I'd be a little more excited.

1 point for this upgrade would have been undercosted. You forget that it gives you a second 4 or 5 point missle/torp/bomb for each you have equipped. 2 seems very fair

1 point would have been overcosted for some ordnance out there on ships that aren't the tie bomber or one of the new wave 7 ships. Just because you get a second missile/torp/bomb that has a printed cost of 4 or 5 doesn't mean it is worth 4 or 5 points, possibly not even 2 points. And that a second would be worth as much.

Do you use Jonus with your torps? what about homing missiles? Proton Rockets? There are a variety of ways missiles and torps are great when stacked in pairs just currently we haven't had a way to do it. I don't think getting them off will be much of an issue as people seem to be making it. Shooting a cluster missile is better than just shooting 3 dice isn't it? You have to remember that for every time you roll 0 hits you will eventually roll all hits.

Y-wings and b-wings can't be fielded with jonus.

no but they do have FCS, token support (IE kyle garvin), free action support, (cracken, lando). I just named 4 different ships/pilots that would help your own ships fire their stuff more effectively. You can throw in squad leader, dutch, just for a few more options.

This, exactly, is why people DON'T use ordnance. You need to spend a ton of points on less than efficient pilot options to get the most out of 1 or 2 shots. When you can even keep dutch, garven, kyle, and FCS and spend the 6+ points getting a torpedo and the extra munitions upgrade elsewhere and be better off. Any investment in ordnance-enabling action economy can just as easily be an investment in more primary or cannon improving action economy.

My point is any extra damage you could do with a proton torpedo is not worth 4 points. TL spent or unspent with the ordnance, if I spend points to get free rerolls, or a free focus the turn I TL, the extra damage still fails to be worth 4 points, or even 3 points. The extra ordnance upgrade only has a chance to be worth taking on ships like tie bomber and the new wave 7 ships.

and if you hit multiple ships that last turn your torp should be just as effective the following round still throwing 4 dice with 4 potential damage (crits not included).

If you Turtle up with the ion cannon you can do a max 3 damage and Ion one ship, if you have the auto blaster max 2 damage at range 2 since you can't hit him with your turret.

Well, let's be realistic: if you were straight-up jousting with that expensively armed Y-Wing into a group of enemy ships, it's probably not getting that second shot off at all.

Focusing with the Ion Cannon, you will average about 3~ hits (and, because the Focus is flexible, you can decide whether you want to push for extra damage via the main gun or an added chance to ion the target a second time at the cost of your average damage potential).

Taking the unmodified roll with the Torpedo - and again, bear in mind that you spent two points for this privilege - you will average about 2~ hits.

You can tailor the list to add to that potential, buying named pilots and/or upgrades that make the action economy more efficient, but note that this only pushes the cost of deploying these weapons further and further up. This does not seem to fix the issue of them being an expensive point sink.

At any rate, my intent here isn't to make people feel defensive, which I think I'm doing - so sorry about that. By all means, install the weapons and enjoy them. I just don't believe that Extra Munitions is going to make them more competitive.

This'll be fun with Nera and an FCS. Gives her a double APT bubble at anyone within range 1 for 4 points per torpedo.