One interesting thing about the fix is how it's implemented with tokens. Eventually there could be upgrades or pilot skills that replenish spent tokens.
Extra Munitions
The problem I have with ordnance fix isn't so much that it doesn't fix costing, it's that it doesn't make ordnance FUN.
missiles and torps aren't fun, it's rolling the same dice at the same time as a primary attack with the same requirement for being in the firing arc, at the same or worse range of 1-3.
It doesn't feel like a proton torpedo. Firing a torpedo should be like Luke at the end of a new Hope -- hold your breath and squeeze the trigger. Maybe you won't hit, but if it does the result should be devastating. Instead, by the time the blanks are accounted for and the opponent has rolled evades, you're lucky to get one or two hits. Yay.
Exactly, for fun reasons it should have a so/so chance of hitting, but if it does hit it should really, REALLY, hurt.
The problem is, you don't want it to be a random instakill on high agility low hull ships in Interceptors.
A long time ago people suggested that after all dice are resolved double the number of hits suffered. That still sounds like the most fun fix to me, but I can't remember if somebody pointed out an obvious flaw.
It's probably worthwhile for bombs, but missiles? Torpedoes? You pay a two point premium for the privilege of being able to shoot unmodified dice twice, assuming you can meet the weapon parameters for the requisite shots.
You could've instead just taken the Focus action for free and actually had better overall damage output.
:|
Why do you say unmodified dice? Multiple munitions modify their own dice, focus is still a viable option for actions. Lots of synergy on pilots, and among pilots create an opening and this is a massive discount on ordinance, buy one get 1 50+% off.
4 points for one proton is too much, but 6 for two, that's more doable.
3 Munitions modify their own dice. All of them Missiles. One of which, Prockets, you will never see on ships that can take both cards because you're losing out on red dice due to agility and won't be able to keep ships at range 1 with these behemoths.
Concussion Missile and Proton Torpedos both modify the die results. Just, not exactly as well as keeping your TL or Focus.
What ship that can actually use this card and keep opponents at optimal range and STILL get the action to fire ordinance every turn are you talking about, pray tell? I'll wait.I can very easily stay at range 2-3 or 1-2 for two consecutive rounds, especially depending on the ship.Again, when are you getting those shots off? Most Ordinance is only useable at very specific ranges. Having two Proton Torpedoes on your Y-wing now means jack $#!% when you can't fire the second one next turn because they're in Range 1. If you try to tell me that doesn't happen often you have clearly not used ordinance very much at all.
You ever hear of a guy named Rhymer?
Y's can take R7-T1 get a lock and a boost, Horton modifies his own dice, Dutch hands out tokens, as do many other ships.
Seriously the amount to angst on this board lately is reminding me of my bad old goth days. Whose up for a Merlot and some melancholy?
Why do you say unmodified dice? Multiple munitions modify their own dice, focus is still a viable option for actions. Lots of synergy on pilots, and among pilots create an opening and this is a massive discount on ordinance, buy one get 1 50+% off.4 points for one proton is too much, but 6 for two, that's more doable.
Concussion Missile turns one blank into a hit, and Proton Torpedo turns a focus into a crit. That's it. You've spent a TL to get a sub par dice modification, and it's not flexible.
If you feel that 6 points for two Proton Torpedoes is a bargain, by all means, fly it and see how it goes. I'm thinking it will not be competitive.
Edited by President Jyrgunkarrd3 Munitions modify their own dice. All of them Missiles. One of which, Prockets, you will never see on ships that can take both cards because you're losing out on red dice due to agility and won't be able to keep ships at range 1 with these behemoths.
Proton Torp, change one eyeball to a crit...
Nera Dantels, shoot torps in any direction.
What lots of people seem to be missing is that there are all kinds of things making ordinance better, a fix that applies to all ordinance needs to be very conservative or it will over power the ordinance that isn't overcosted.
Why do you say unmodified dice? Multiple munitions modify their own dice, focus is still a viable option for actions. Lots of synergy on pilots, and among pilots create an opening and this is a massive discount on ordinance, buy one get 1 50+% off.4 points for one proton is too much, but 6 for two, that's more doable.
Concussion Missile turns one blank into a hit, and Proton Torpedo turns a focus into a crit. That's it. You've spent a TL to get a sub par dice modification, and it's not flexible.
If you feel that 6 points for two Proton Torpedoes is bargain, by all means, fly and see how it goes. I'm thinking it will not be competitive.
Isn't it better than the alternative though? With the bomber a range 3 shot is 2 red dice with a focus or TL, VS +1 def dice
President Jyrgunkarrd,
OK so it replaces 1 slot. If you only have 1 slot it is of no help at all so all of the 1 shot torp, missile and bombs get no help at all still wasted weapon slot.. If you only have 2 slots it does not help, because it replaces 1 slot leaving 1 slot with 2 shots. So it is of no help. It cost 2 points to have 2 shots, depending on the weapon it may save you some points, but on most not much. How is this any kind of fix for a wasted slot an several very important ships in the game. If that is the only fix then they need to keep this fix on the boat.
President Jyrgunkarrd,
OK so it replaces 1 slot. If you only have 1 slot it is of no help at all so all of the 1 shot torp, missile and bombs get no help at all still wasted weapon slot.. If you only have 2 slots it does not help, because it replaces 1 slot leaving 1 slot with 2 shots. So it is of no help. It cost 2 points to have 2 shots, depending on the weapon it may save you some points, but on most not much. How is this any kind of fix for a wasted slot an several very important ships in the game. If that is the only fix then they need to keep this fix on the boat.
How is making buying two for a discount not a help at all? If you were going to load in two rockets or two torps to the carrier anyway, why wouldn't you want to purchase it all at a discount?
One interesting thing about the fix is how it's implemented with tokens. Eventually there could be upgrades or pilot skills that replenish spent tokens.
Such as docking with a huge ship
Actually I think insta-kill is exactly what one wants. The probability of hit should be inversely related to ship's printed agility, so glass cannons will be harder to hit. But if they do get hit, instakill.
If ordnance hits, have it do maximum damage, but also allow the opponent to double the number of evade dice rolled.
The problem I have with ordnance fix isn't so much that it doesn't fix costing, it's that it doesn't make ordnance FUN.
missiles and torps aren't fun, it's rolling the same dice at the same time as a primary attack with the same requirement for being in the firing arc, at the same or worse range of 1-3.
It doesn't feel like a proton torpedo. Firing a torpedo should be like Luke at the end of a new Hope -- hold your breath and squeeze the trigger. Maybe you won't hit, but if it does the result should be devastating. Instead, by the time the blanks are accounted for and the opponent has rolled evades, you're lucky to get one or two hits. Yay.
Exactly, for fun reasons it should have a so/so chance of hitting, but if it does hit it should really, REALLY, hurt.
The problem is, you don't want it to be a random instakill on high agility low hull ships in Interceptors.
A long time ago people suggested that after all dice are resolved double the number of hits suffered. That still sounds like the most fun fix to me, but I can't remember if somebody pointed out an obvious flaw.
Why do you say unmodified dice? Multiple munitions modify their own dice, focus is still a viable option for actions. Lots of synergy on pilots, and among pilots create an opening and this is a massive discount on ordinance, buy one get 1 50+% off.
4 points for one proton is too much, but 6 for two, that's more doable.
Concussion Missile turns one blank into a hit, and Proton Torpedo turns a focus into a crit. That's it. You've spent a TL to get a sub par dice modification, and it's not flexible.
If you feel that 6 points for two Proton Torpedoes is a bargain, by all means, fly it and see how it goes. I'm thinking it will not be competitive.
Why do my quotes always wind up unreadably formatted when you reply to me?
I'm willing to try it, should be fun. Rhymer with two advanced torps is now only 39 points. Give Jonus squad leader or Vader and two ships are going to throw a lot of hits. Maybe it doesn't work, depends on the rest of the list, still looks like fun to me.
Isn't it better than the alternative though? With the bomber a range 3 shot is 2 red dice with a focus or TL, VS +1 def dice
Yes, it's better with a bomber. I already said that.
Being better on one craft doesn't constitute an overall fix.
Not sure on this fix, because it doesn't address some of the fundamental problems with ordnance; namely the difficulty for low-PS pilots in acquiring target locks in the first engagement, and the poor action economy involved in spending target locks to fire many missiles and torpedoes (which lowers overall damage and thus cost effectiveness).
It does fix the problem of ordnance being a 1-shot proposition, but at a price. And although it scales up for multiple ordnance upgrades, that means your ship is going to be relatively pricey. Final judgement reserved until we see more, especially the new torpedoes/missiles and bombs, but I don't think this card is going to fix our little ordnance problem by itself.
Extra Munitions is viable on:
B-Wings
Y-Wings
TIE Bombers
Slave-1
VT-49 Decimator
Sadly, it cannot be used to give multiple Hotshot Blasters. Still, pretty danged nice.
If you are using it to double down on Torpedoes, then:
Flechettes cost the same as they ever did
Proton Torpedoes cost 3 apiece
Ion Torpedoes cost 3.5 apiece
Advanced Proton Torpedoes cost 4 apiece.
On the Bomb side of things:
Seismic Charges gain an extra slot
Proximity Mines gain an extra slot and cost 2.5 apiece
Cluster Mines gain an extra slot and cost 3 apiece
Proton Bombs gain an extra slot and cost 3.5 apiece.
On the Missile side of things:
Ion Pulse Missiles gain 1-2 extra slots and cost 2.5 apiece
Proton Rockets gain 1-2 extra slots and cost 2.5 apiece
Cluster Missiles gain 1-2 extra slots and cost 3 apiece
Concussion Missiles gain 1-2 extra slots and cost 3 apiece
Assault Missiles gain 1-2 extra slots and cost 3.5 apiece
Homing Missiles gain 1-2 extra slots and cost 3.5 apiece
The savings continue to stack the more ordnance you put on one of these things. If you put multiples, that is.
Krassis Trellix in the Slave 1 with 2x Cluster Missiles and 2x Seismic Charges is a very happy... alien-thing.
Maximum possible 'savings'?
A Bomber with Extra Munitions, Advanced Protons, Proton Bomb, and 2x Assault Missiles.
Used as 2x Advanced Protons, 2x Bombs, and 4x Assault Missiles
23 points for the former, for the latter 42. 19 point discount.
Still completely unviable, but a 19 point discount isn't sneezable.
Edited by DraconPyrothayanMy only issue is that it can't be used with Munitions Failsafe. If you could combine the two...
unf. Yes.
Where does it say you can't? Extra Munitions is a torpedo slot. Munitions Failsafe is a mod. The Extra Munitions card says you may discard a token instead. Note the may. You could decide to not trigger EM in order to trigger MF instead.
Actually it looks like munitions failsafe would just override the tokens before they trigger. Since munition failsafe only says you have to discard if you hit you wouldn't have a chance to discard a token before that effect triggered if you missed.
My only issue is that it can't be used with Munitions Failsafe. If you could combine the two...
unf. Yes.
Actually, you can equip both. the "Extra Munitions" card reads, “When you are instructed to discard an upgrade card, you MAY discard 1 ordnance toke on that card instead.” If you miss use the Munitions Failsafe, if you hit use the Extra Munitions. :-)
Makes me think of Afroman's because I got high song.
Was going to move my ship, but then I got bombed.
Was going to move 2 green, but then I got bombed.
Now I'm throwing dice against the wall and I know why!
Because I got bombed
Because I got bombed
Because I got bombed
Makes me think of Afroman's because I got high song.
Was going to move my ship, but then I got bombed.
Was going to move 2 green, but then I got bombed.
Now I'm throwing dice against the wall and I know why!
Because I got bombed
Because I got bombed
Because I got bombed
you sure it wasn't because it is 4/20
My only issue is that it can't be used with Munitions Failsafe. If you could combine the two...
unf. Yes.
Where does it say you can't? Extra Munitions is a torpedo slot. Munitions Failsafe is a mod. The Extra Munitions card says you may discard a token instead. Note the may. You could decide to not trigger EM in order to trigger MF instead.
HNNNNNNNNNNNG YES
Ships that the ordnance fix does not fix :X-Wing, Z95, A-Wing, E-Wing, YT1300, YT2400, Tie Advanced, Tie Defender, IG88, StarViper. So it helped 5 ships to some extent, but did not help 10. On 4 ships it only helps 1 slot. The Tie bomber is the only one that it gets help on multiple slots. Is that correct? If so is it really a fix.?
Ships that the ordnance fix does not fix :X-Wing, Z95, A-Wing, E-Wing, YT1300, YT2400, Tie Advanced, Tie Defender, IG88, StarViper. So it helped 5 ships to some extent, but did not help 10. On 4 ships it only helps 1 slot. The Tie bomber is the only one that it gets help on multiple slots. Is that correct? If so is it really a fix.?
It fixed it for dedicated ordnance carriers. Fighters who happen to be able to carry a little ordnance this won't help...... but new ordnance that we haven't seen might. I plan to stay tuned for details.
EDIT: second glass of wine adversely affected my typing
Edited by Audio WeaselShips that the ordnance fix does not fix :X-Wing, Z95, A-Wing, E-Wing, YT1300, YT2400, Tie Advanced, Tie Defender, IG88, StarViper. So it helped 5 ships to some extent, but did not help 10. On 4 ships it only helps 1 slot. The Tie bomber is the only one that it gets help on multiple slots. Is that correct? If so is it really a fix.?
It depends on which problem you are talking about? About having the ships with multiple ordnance slots load up, then yes. If you are talking about a general ordnance fix, then no.
Well since both Z95 and A-Wings have been refered to as missile carriers it would you think apply to them. So at the present until we see other parts of the release it is a no.