How about Formations with variable Leader options?

"Scimitar Squadron" - Three or more pilots from the following list: Jonus (Leader), Rhymer (Leader), Scimitar Pilot.

The Formation must have a leader.

Effect with Jonus as Leader: Jonus gets 'Squad Leader for free'; Squad Leader let you choose up to two ships.

Effect with Rhymer as Leader: Scimitar Pilots get an Elite Training Slot; All elites are 1 squad point less.

"Black Squadron" - Four or more pilots from the following list: Vader (Leader), Mauler Mithel (Leader), Backstabber, Dark Curse, Black Squadron Pilot.

The Formation must have a leader.

Effect with Vader as leader: All formation members in range 1 may discard a focus or evade token to increase attack value by 1

Effect with Mauler Mithel as leader: Black Squadron Pilots get a 1-point EPT for free

... or something alike

You got the point, I guess?

We already have one. IG-2000 title. Assume X wing will get a similar group title bonus of some kind.

For questions of duration of the effects, a single line added to each card could help maintain balance.

Example:

Duration: Entire Game

or

Duration: Until original criteria are no longer met

This way, if an effect is deemed too powerful (e.g., a Formation of 3 X-Wings gets an additional red die when attacking), it can be modified by the duration so if the list ever drops to two or fewer X-Wings, the effect is lost.

Rogue Squadron

Requirement: 3 or more X-Wings, one of which must be Wedge Antilles

Effect: All X-Wings gain +1 Red die when attacking with their primary weapon

Duration: Lasts until there are 2 or fewer X-Wings remaining in the squadron

Cost: 2

or

Rogue Squadron

Requirement: 3 or more X-Wings, one of which must be Wedge Antilles

Effect: All X-Wings gain +2 PS to their Pilot Skill

Duration: Entire game

Cost: 2

I'd rather not have the rules be too complicated.

One of the things that makes X-wing work is that - by design - no special rule can be too wordy to fit on a card with some artwork.

By the time you've put in some artwork and a 'composition', you're going to have to have a pretty simple rule - I don't think there's 'space' for rules for variable leaders in a single rule.

You can, however, have different formations with similar compositions. "Lord Vader's Wingmen" might be Vader, Backstabber and Mithel specifically, who are all valid choices for "Black Squadron" - but the 'formation bonus' is different.

On a random note: If they make formation cards, I'd like them to be full sized instead of small like upgrades. Makes it easier to spot and/or forget. They could even do them landscape/horizontal like the quests in the LOTR LCG to make them visually different in the line-up.

Don't know if anyone mentioned that yet. I read the first page and skipped to the end out of pure excitement.

Also, how would they be distributed? Epic ships? Carboard booster pack? New ships? Just a thought. My apologies if anyone else thought of it and mentioned it earlier.

On a random note: If they make formation cards, I'd like them to be full sized instead of small like upgrades. Makes it easier to spot and/or forget. They could even do them landscape/horizontal like the quests in the LOTR LCG to make them visually different in the line-up.

Don't know if anyone mentioned that yet. I read the first page and skipped to the end out of pure excitement.

Also, how would they be distributed? Epic ships? Carboard booster pack? New ships? Just a thought. My apologies if anyone else thought of it and mentioned it earlier.

Formation card packs.

Large-scaled and shiny cards.

I don't think X-wing needs formations. GW put formations in as way to try and balance 40k by forcing people to use (and of course buy) crappy units and models that never got used. X-wing has much better internal balance since FFG actually does playtesting.

I don't think X-wing needs formations. GW put formations in as way to try and balance 40k by forcing people to use (and of course buy) crappy units and models that never got used. X-wing has much better internal balance since FFG actually does playtesting.

Charrdan Refit, TIE/x1, Cloaking, Munitions Failsafe, Extra Munitions and Deadeye would all like a word with you.

I for one think FFG has a very good track record at balancing.

I for one think FFG has a very good track record at balancing.

So do I. However, "good" isn't "perfect." This could be another tool besides titles to use when making balance tweaks.

It's also not just a balancing tool. It can enhance gameplay.

How about something along these lines?

Formation: Heavy Bomber Wing

Faction: Imperial or Rebel

Cost: 2 Points

Restriction: You must include 2 bombers. Eligible craft: Tie/Bomber, Tie/Interdictor, Y-Wing, K-Wing.

Benefit: Bomber craft may include Expanded Munitions and Munitions Failsafe at no cost.

I'm not sure if I should include more or less with this one. I was considering adding the B-Wing to the list of bombers, and a reduction on torpedo based ordnance, but I felt that might be too much for two points. Balance is definitely a tricky part to these formations, but I like the idea of them.

I don't think X-wing needs formations. GW put formations in as way to try and balance 40k by forcing people to use (and of course buy) crappy units and models that never got used. X-wing has much better internal balance since FFG actually does playtesting.

Uh huh. Interesting point of fact, Steve Kimball didn't know about Magic's Future Future League - or that even they occasionally drop the ball - until I told him about it. Playtesting is great and all, but even the best companies don't always get it right.

Criticism is welcome here, of course, but did you actually read my OP, or did you stop to comment as soon as you saw 'GW'?

Someone had asked how they would distribute these and the thought occurred to me that these would be great included with something else that has been suggested many times, a mission or scenario pack.

Distribution with Aces packs, maybe?

Formations for 40k were very frequently take these bunch of models in your list (frequently models you needed to buy) pay a little extra and get a "cool" ability. Typically these formations would range from 25-50% of your overall force. And could work very for x-wing Epic play

Warmachine/ Hordes THEME forces worked very differently. They represented a "typical historic" force that your general was know to field at a particular time frame. They sometimes allow you to spam an otherwise restricted unit. Other times they give points discount, a start of game benefit. etc.

This is what a Theme force might look like in x-wing (No doubt someone with more fluff knowledge will correct me in my errors here)

It would normally start with 1-2 pages of fluff that sets the tone for the idea. Thankfully we have the films for that.

In warmachine, it normally list, Warjacks allowed, units allowed and solos allowed, But X-wing has ships and upgrades only

Title - Lord Vader Personally Intervenes. (<-- It needs to have a name)

Ships allowed

Non-Unique Tie Fighters, Non-Unique Tie Advance, BackStabber, Mauler Mithal, Darth Vader

Disallowed upgrades

None

Tier 1

Requirements

Your Squad only has the models listed above

Benefit

Non-Unique Tie Advance cost -1 Squad points

Tier 2

Requirements

Your Squad contains no Academy Pilot Tie Fighters

Benefit

After deployment but before the first dial is revealed, All your Non Unique Tie Fighters may perform a Free Boost Action

Tier 3

Requirement

Your Squad contains Mauler Mithal with Draw there Fire EPT and Backstabber

Benefit

Backstabber may equip the Draw There Fire EPT and no squad cost, even though he doesn't have an EPT slot.

Tier 4

Requirement

Your squad contains Darth Vader

Benefit

All unique Pilots in your Squad deploy as if they're PS was 10

Yes, you have to qualify for each Tier in order.

As I'm sure you've worked out, they maybe a Tier that is not worth stopping at or even climbing to.

First obvious build using this Theme force is 5 Tempest Squadron Pilots with Accuracy Correctors. Well, you can, you have no Initiative Bid and are very likely to be moving first and shooting last (Not to mention your vulnerability to Predator). But you have 5 Tie Advance with Accuracy Correctors...

A Theme force could also be used to prevent certain combo's that could break the game, Some one early on mentioned giving Defenders a +2PS boost, as a benefit. You could also prevent the likes Veteran Instincts to stop ships gains +4 PS

Anyway, my lady is wanting my attention and caused me to lose my train of thought. But above is how Theme forces tend to work.

That's, uh, quite a detailed distinction for something that was meant to be a very broad idea. That having been said, all ideas are welcome, let's just not derail the thread in an effort to correct each other's nomenclature.

As soon as I've got some free time I'll express some more random thoughts here.

One thing to note is that the Warmachine Theme Force setup often has a bunch of fluffy but uninteresting lists, probably due to a soft requirement of every warcaster needing to have at least one.

It seems like too often the list is a bunch of stuff you were going to take anyway, so the lists end up kind of same-y, or are needlessly restrictive and uninteresting, and end up neither fun nor tournament competitive.

I'm not sure if the additional complexity from the tier system is worth it or not.

I actually had thought about something like this quite some time ago. Really love the idea. One that came to mind for me was one for Rogue Squadron. It would be a 4 X-Wing formation allowing friendly formation ships within range 1 to use a target lock as if it was their own. This would offer some pretty cool dynamics in action efficiency, and give their torpedo slot some more flexibility.

Don't know what points would look like, but I would love to see something like this implemented. If not for standard 100 point games, then for Epic it would be very appropriate.

I think four X-Wings is too restrictive in a 100 point game.

I think four X-Wings is too restrictive in a 100 point game.

Title: "Militant Casuals"

Cost: 4 points

Requirements: At least 4 Rookie Pilot X-Wings

Bonus: Reduce the cost of each Rookie Pilot by 5 squad points

Drawback: Reduce the PS each Rookie Pilot by 1

Flavor text: "Local yokels who have received X-Wings to defend their turf from the evil Empire!"

16 point PS1 "Militant Casual" Pilots to fly against "Prize Sniper Squadron" Pilots!

I proposed this a long long Time ago actually. Was probably during Wave 3 or 4.

So yes this would be a great idea. You just could make bigger cards and reserve spaces to put the elements belonging to the formation in. Then you would write the name, requirements and benefits around these spaces and you're good to go.

This would need to be carefully thought out, but could also serve to balance some ships like E-Wing, X-Wing, Defender,...

Ships that would not need any help could get tougher requirements and smalker benefits!

It would be interesting though. You could not only limit this to certain ship types but include certain options, squadrons or Named Pilots to the requirements. I think this would be the next dimension of designing the X-Wing game if it was well executed

How about something along these lines?

Formation: Heavy Bomber Wing

Faction: Imperial or Rebel

Cost: 2 Points

Restriction: You must include 2 bombers. Eligible craft: Tie/Bomber, Tie/Interdictor, Y-Wing, K-Wing.

Benefit: Bomber craft may include Expanded Munitions and Munitions Failsafe at no cost.

I'm not sure if I should include more or less with this one. I was considering adding the B-Wing to the list of bombers, and a reduction on torpedo based ordnance, but I felt that might be too much for two points. Balance is definitely a tricky part to these formations, but I like the idea of them.

Well the B-Eing should really be included if you ask me. I did not think of costing the formation itself. I thought the cost would be the restrictions themselves. You are after all not free to choose what you want. This Formation offers a 3-point discount per ship but still takes up modification slots and a torp slot per ship. So Y-Wings and B-Wings would still have 2 shots only. That's not a huge benefit really and i don't know if the formation should not be free!

For those of you who play 40k or Warmachine, you should already understand the concept. While there are certainly no end to the legitimate gripes concerning the former game, formations are one of the few things they've managed to get right in recent years. For those who don't know what I'm talking about, a formation is an element of design space that uses list building considerations outside the normal upgrade paths to balance out possible benefits. Consider some of the current ships that require "fixes": the design space for implementing those fixes is becoming narrower and narrower, with the possibility of becoming redundant with preexisting fixes. To wit, there are only so many combinations of titles and modifications that can be implemented to reverse the bloated point cost or lack of value of current ships. So, what I'm advocating is a new kind of card that is attached to the list as a whole, rather than independent ships. Restrictions would be list based ("must take X number of Y ships," for example), and would provide a benefit to any and all ships in that list that match the given criteria.

If anyone is confused, here is an example of a formation card I mocked up:

Formation: Elite Defender Squadron

Cost: 1 point

Restriction: Your list must include at least two TIE Defenders.

Benefit: All TIE Defenders in your list have an increased pilot skill of 2, and an Elite Talent slot if they do not already have one.

Edit: As an aside, formation cards would have the added benefit of increased potency in epic matches, where some serious TLC is required right now.

Im all for this.

I rememeber when we put 'force allocation' charts into 40k back in the day and loads of people moaned but it was actually , like you say, a good move.

In our gaming group we sort of unnoficially do this anyway to a degree.

We'll say 'late war game' and limit what you can take to later EU ships or 'original trilogy' game and keep its to the stuff seen in films

But i do like your idea of saying

'Xwing Squadron'

Which limits what you can take but lets you take certain items at a reduced cost *or* requires you to take certain core requirements and only a small amount of variation.

So for example

Rebel Recon Force

Would mean you HAD to take either an A wing or a long probe Y wing, had to take say 'advanced sensors' but the remaining points you could choose any A, E, Y or X wing but no heavy fighters like B wings or obsolete ships like Z95s.

Im just trying to illustrate a point there im not saying 'a rebel recon force would not have B wings or Z95s' , just in my eyes 'recce' would be either light fast A wings able to get in and out, or long range Y wings laden with sensors.

Years ago i wrote a 40k 'badab war' campaign to be played at Warhammer World in the UK. In that you *could* take any imperial or traitor army to book in but if you took a formation 'historically' listed as being at Badab you got a 'free' unit to encourage you to take a themed force... no game winner just a few extra marines or a free attack bike.

In the same way you could say that 'packages' that restricted your ship choice gave you a 'free' upgrade bundle?

Having re-read the thread i see a few different ideas floating about.

One thing Andy Chambers said to me once when i was working on my 'Iron Knights' chapter codex was that 'what makes a strong list is not what you add to the basic codex but what you take away'

And that stuck with me

A lot of people try and 'fix' things or make them thematic by adding a 'super duper cannon' or saying 'all mega marines get a 2+ invulnerable save'.

To go back to my 'iron knights', the idea was they were a penetant chapter on a 500 year crusade, their kit was breaking down, their core special rule was that any basic marine could elect to take scout armour rather than power armour to *cost less* (the idea was that terminator and power armour spares were running low) and be -2 points but gain scout abilities back again. I also limited the amount of speeders and tanks they could take.

To link this back to xwing and 'formation lists' i think rather than come up with extra rules to encourage you to take thematic or 'ship specific' lists the incentive should be reduced cost of either the ship or the upgrades or for certain upgrades to be 'free' if the criteria for the list build is met.

So you're not clogging a card with text, you're not changing any core rules, you're not changing the way the game plays. You're just making ships more economical.

A 'red squadron' card that reduces the cost of all x wings by 4 points as long as they are all 'red squadron' then potentially lets you take five of them rather than 4. Or it lets you tank up four of them or super tank 3 of them. But your restriction is that you've the limited choices allowed you by an xwing.

I think I'll see if my mates are up for trying some 'formation rules' out as we're really up for trying new ideas in the game.