For those of you who play 40k or Warmachine, you should already understand the concept. While there are certainly no end to the legitimate gripes concerning the former game, formations are one of the few things they've managed to get right in recent years. For those who don't know what I'm talking about, a formation is an element of design space that uses list building considerations outside the normal upgrade paths to balance out possible benefits. Consider some of the current ships that require "fixes": the design space for implementing those fixes is becoming narrower and narrower, with the possibility of becoming redundant with preexisting fixes. To wit, there are only so many combinations of titles and modifications that can be implemented to reverse the bloated point cost or lack of value of current ships. So, what I'm advocating is a new kind of card that is attached to the list as a whole, rather than independent ships. Restrictions would be list based ("must take X number of Y ships," for example), and would provide a benefit to any and all ships in that list that match the given criteria.

If anyone is confused, here is an example of a formation card I mocked up:

Formation: Elite Defender Squadron

Cost: 1 point

Restriction: Your list must include at least two TIE Defenders.

Benefit: All TIE Defenders in your list have an increased pilot skill of 2, and an Elite Talent slot if they do not already have one.

Edit: As an aside, formation cards would have the added benefit of increased potency in epic matches, where some serious TLC is required right now.

This would make for an interesting way to get Rogue Squadron into the game.

On the plus side, it could encourage "fluffy" lists. It could also be used to make a couple of ships like Defenders and the E-wing more viable.

On the downside, well, anyone who's spent any time on a 40k site probably can recall several times where someone managed to completely misunderstand how formations work. They'd also present another element to consider when balancing the game, which can make things trickier, and some people resent "having their list made for them"

EDIT: Also, what does this have to do with a tier list?

If my local playing group hadn't been decimated by switching to Armada I'd give this a Houserules playtest immediately, but as it stands i don't think i can muster enough people to sit down and commit to it.

This is a more elegant fix to problematic ships (or just less-efficient ones) than slapping on a new title and calling it a day.

I have some initial questions. These don't necessarily need answers but may be worth thinking about:

- If you were in charge of design, would players be restricted to one formation per list or would they be able to take more than one formation if they met the criteria for each? e.g., say there's a formation that improves the Y-Wing and one that improves the X-Wing. Your list has both. Would you only be allowed to choose one?

- How significantly would a formation upgrade alter the performance of a ship? Is the intent here just basic cost-correction or could a formation enable new tactics?

I like the concept for sure, sort of like title cards for a list. Balancing would be tricky though certainly not impossible.

On the plus side, it could encourage "fluffy" lists. It could also be used to make a couple of ships like Defenders and the E-wing more viable.

On the downside, well, anyone who's spent any time on a 40k site probably can recall several times where someone managed to completely misunderstand how formations work. They'd also present another element to consider when balancing the game, which can make things trickier, and some people resent "having their list made for them"

EDIT: Also, what does this have to do with a tier list?

Having a card rather than a block of rules text buried in a codex, rulebook, or issue of White Dwarf should make the matter fairly intuitive. 40k formations might be confusing to some, but only because it's 40k, not necessarily because there's anything inherent to formations that make them confusing. I agree that it would be another element to game design (or rather, development), but that isn't necessarily a bad thing; it just means more work for FFG, and neither they nor we should expect the things that X-Wing needs at this point to come easily, not after 7 waves of increasingly complex interactions.

Tier lists in Warmachine are similar in principle to formations; they restrict what you can take, while offering benefits in return. For X-Wing, the restriction would be based upon a limited number of remaining points after fielding the requisite ships. Alternatively, I could mock up a card that explicitly forbids certain combinations of ships.

- If you were in charge of design, would players be restricted to one formation per list or would they be able to take more than one formation if they met the criteria for each? e.g., say there's a formation that improves the Y-Wing and one that improves the X-Wing. Your list has both. Would you only be allowed to choose one?

That would require playtesting, but as a gut reaction, I would say one formation for the 100 point format (or escalation) would be restrictive enough, but allow more for epic play.

- How significantly would a formation upgrade alter the performance of a ship? Is the intent here just basic cost-correction or could a formation enable new tactics?

Why not both? I'm hoping this is a viable enough concept that FFG could run with it, if they wanted to. There's no reason to limit the scope of formation cards to my imagination alone. Can you think of some new tactics that might be worthwhile?

On the plus side, it could encourage "fluffy" lists. It could also be used to make a couple of ships like Defenders and the E-wing more viable.

On the downside, well, anyone who's spent any time on a 40k site probably can recall several times where someone managed to completely misunderstand how formations work. They'd also present another element to consider when balancing the game, which can make things trickier, and some people resent "having their list made for them"

EDIT: Also, what does this have to do with a tier list?

Having a card rather than a block of rules text should make the matter fairly intuitive. 40k formations might be confusing to some, but only because it's 40k, not necessarily because there's anything inherent to formations that make them confusing. I agree that it would be another element to game design (or rather, development), but that isn't necessarily a bad thing; it just means more work for FFG, and neither they nor we should expect the things that X-Wing needs at this point to come easily, not after 7 waves of increasingly complex interactions.

Tier lists in Warmachine are similar in principle to formations; they restrict what you can take, while offering benefits in return.

Ah, I wasn't familiar with the other meaning of the term.

Regarding potential uses for them that LaserBrain asked about.

-By RAW, 40k allows you to fit as many detachments (of which formations are a type) in a list as you can. If formations had a point cost, or required 40-60+ points of ships, I don't think we'd see more than 2 in a list, though. I suppose you could limit it to one, but if you really want two of them, more power to you, I say. You're paying the opportunity cost by not choosing other things already, after all.

-As to what they could be used for, well, there's a lot of things. You can encourage fluffy options (Luke+Biggs+Wedge is an iconic example, or a combination of Rogue Squadron Pilots), you can buff suboptimal units, or just encourage a different play style. (Of course, sometimes you get really stupid formations that are just plain dumb *cough* Admimantium Lance *cough*)

I would share the concern that it could be a bit complex; I had a real bugger of a time figuring out what exactly constituted a legal formation,and therefore was eligible for the benefits, in 40K - but you're probably right that this is more down to the way GW writes their rules and how cumbersome that game can be than the mechanic itself.

A tricky point might be deciding whether or not the formation 'turns off' if your list no longer meets the requirement in the middle of a match due to removed models. Right now, any points you sink into a ship can be taken off of the board by your opponent, so there's always an element of risk associated with upgrades (unless they're free) - so if you allow the purchased formation to remain a factor regardless of how many models you lose, it becomes a risk-free investment, which might not be a great thing for the game. On the other hand, if it's too easy to shut off by shooting stuff, it might not be an effective crutch for the starfighters that need it.

Again, that would require some playtesting to flesh out properly, and specific wording on the card or rules text accompanying the inclusion of another game element. The text on my mocked up card above could very easily be changed to read "Restriction: Your list must include at least two TIE Defenders at the start of the game" or "Restriction: You must deploy at least two TIE Defenders at the start of the game." For the sake of simplicity, I would say that losing a required formation element once the game has commenced wouldn't impact the benefits of the formation card.

I like this concept, especially for the epic format.

Why not both? I'm hoping this is a viable enough concept that FFG could run with it, if they wanted to. There's no reason to limit the scope of formation cards to my imagination alone. Can you think of some new tactics that might be worthwhile?

I whipped up a few quick examples of the kind of benefits I was thinking about. These are pretty much off-the-cuff, so I wasn't too preoccupied with balance:

This is a great idea. It would also allow "historical" squads to exist and still be competitive. Example: Battle of Yavin - include only xwings and ywings, but get some benefit. There are many well known squads that you could choose from to dictate and then give some flavorful benefit to. Rogue Squadron, the 181st, Wraith Squadron, Black Squadron, etc.

I took a "tier" or "formation" list to a tourney just last weekend: the four named pilots from the escort of the transport Bright Hope from Hoth. It was great fun (although, I'll admit, needed a buff of some kind to be competitive!). I reckon this idea has merit, especially for Epic games (all six X-wings and the Bright Hope itself? Yep!).

This is a great idea. It would also allow "historical" squads to exist and still be competitive. Example: Battle of Yavin - include only xwings and ywings, but get some benefit. There are many well known squads that you could choose from to dictate and then give some flavorful benefit to. Rogue Squadron, the 181st, Wraith Squadron, Black Squadron, etc.

And now it'll get buried beneath a pile of wave 7 threads, sadly.

If anyone is confused, here is an example of a formation card I mocked up:

Formation: Elite Defender Squadron

Cost: 1 point

Restriction: Your list must include at least two TIE Defenders.

Benefit: All TIE Defenders in your list have an increased pilot skill of 2, and an Elite Talent slot if they do not already have one.

I can fly 3x Deltas at PS3 with Pedator in a 100 point list? /tearsofjoy

I can fly 3x Deltas at PS3 with Pedator in a 100 point list? /tearsofjoy

Tell me it isn't a perfect fix.

Why not both? I'm hoping this is a viable enough concept that FFG could run with it, if they wanted to. There's no reason to limit the scope of formation cards to my imagination alone. Can you think of some new tactics that might be worthwhile?

I whipped up a few quick examples of the kind of benefits I was thinking about. These are pretty much off-the-cuff, so I wasn't too preoccupied with balance:

Formation: Warthog Bombardment

Cost: ?

Restriction: Your list must include at least two Y-Wings with the BTL-A4 title.

Benefit: If a Y-Wing in your list hits the same defending ship with both a primary weapon attack and a turret attack in the same combat phase, assign the defender one stress token.

Formation: X-Wing Escort

Cost:?

Restriction: Your list must include at least 2 X-Wings.

Benefit: When defending with a ship that is not an X-Wing, if the attacker is within the firing arc of an X-Wing you control, you may choose 1 attack die. The attacker must reroll the chosen die.

Formation: A-Wing Slash

Cost:?

Restriction: Your list must include at least 2 A-Wings equiped with a [missile] upgrade that instructs you to discard it.

Benefit: The cost of [missile] upgrades equipped to A-Wings you control is reduced by 2, to a minimum of 2. When an A-Wing you control performs a [missile] attack that deals at least 1 damage card to the defender, you may randomly choose one of the dealt damage cards and flip it faceup.

Only problem I have is, from the way I understood it, the A-Wing slash involved an A-Wing and a heavier, slower fighter. Requirements should probably reflect that. Perhaps 1 A-Wing and one ship with at least 3 hull?

EDIT: Adding my opinion on the idea in general here instead of double posting. Personally, I find this idea intriguing (possibly even downright fascinating). I know the designers peruse the forums, I hope they see this and give it serious consideration.

Only problem I have is, from the way I understood it, the A-Wing slash involved an A-Wing and a heavier, slower fighter. Requirements should probably reflect that. Perhaps 1 A-Wing and one ship with at least 3 hull?

Yeah, something with a little less symmetry would be interesting.

I'm not letting this get buried, if possible. This is definitely an idea they need to see.

If you haven't already, might I suggest that you put the concept plus a few examples to the designers, to see if they like the idea and see if they want to run with it.

This is a great idea. It would also allow "historical" squads to exist and still be competitive. Example: Battle of Yavin - include only xwings and ywings, but get some benefit. There are many well known squads that you could choose from to dictate and then give some flavorful benefit to. Rogue Squadron, the 181st, Wraith Squadron, Black Squadron, etc.

And now it'll get buried beneath a pile of wave 7 threads, sadly.

Just wait two weeks, get a bunch of good ideas together, then bump this thread back to the top.

This is a great idea. It would also allow "historical" squads to exist and still be competitive. Example: Battle of Yavin - include only xwings and ywings, but get some benefit. There are many well known squads that you could choose from to dictate and then give some flavorful benefit to. Rogue Squadron, the 181st, Wraith Squadron, Black Squadron, etc.

And now it'll get buried beneath a pile of wave 7 threads, sadly.

Just wait two weeks, get a bunch of good ideas together, then bump this thread back to the top.

I would have hoped they'd considered it already, to be honest. It didn't seem like a very original thought, since I borrowed a bit from GW and PP, but then they didn't give me a very strong indication that they looked for external inspiration when developing their brands.

I would have hoped they'd considered it already, to be honest. It didn't seem like a very original thought, since I borrowed a bit from GW and PP, but then they didn't give me a very strong indication that they looked for external inspiration when developing their brands.

Not to mention that what's obvious to one person is unthinkable to another. It could be that it just never occured to them. Maybe they're reading this right now and smacking their foreheads