Good morning,

I'm a relatively new player to the X wing game, and since I do love the game and the general balance that FFG has managed to keep I've gotten into the deep end (Mistakes were made) and gotten onto the forums and started listening to podcasts.

Heck I've even read the Thrawn trilogy; (which I hope that eventually we see something from those books)

But there have been a couple of things that do slightly aggravate me in regards to the players, community, and game in general, so I wanted to make a rant style post to just get it out in the air.

Please consider my thoughts as coming from an outsider, and in this vein maybe it will put a different perspective on what I'm hearing, and what is being said.

Before I do list my issues I do want to state that as a whole I really like the game and the community, and that there are no "deal breaker" type problems I see.

1. The inevitable stalling for time complaint: I've already addressed this before as my first post to the board https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/129510-intentionally-stalling-a-game-for-time/?p=1393262 but I wanted to clarify this post. You will never get a definite answer to whether a person is stalling, and you need to call over a judge. If you are like me and a slow player via paralysis through analysis (which is why I was chosen to do that job) then I suggest that you start practicing preparing your moves ahead of time, timing yourself, and repetitively playing your squad so that you are faster on your dials. On my games that I play I try to be finished with all of my dials within 3 minutes. But I am also actively changing my dials while my opponent is moving so that I can have the dial ready (I just check it before placing it on the board). This is after all supposed to be a fast paced, reactionary dogfight style game.
2. X ship is broken: While many ships are not the best, and that FFG has tried to implement changes (via titles and modifications, which I think have gone well) I tend to think that many of the ships are fairly well balanced. They create these ships and are often always trying to give new mechanics (to keep the game fresh, ie M:TG). Also ships definitely favor a playstyle, and as the meta changes certain ships will become more or less useful. Not every ship needs to be totally equal. And I see many posts on how the _______ is horrible, or broken.
3. The wild speculation on what Wave X is bringing. This complaint is much more mild, but I do believe that waves are happening too fast, and although I like the timing of new waves just before regionals, that we will run out of ships. I do like some speculation, but if you look at the first page of this board it is nothing but that..... Calm down guys we will get to it eventually.
4. That flying casual seems to be going away. It was refreshing to hear the tales of people helping other players during a regional event. It was nice to see empathy from one player to another. I do understand competition, and I do feel that the letter of the law does need to stand for Worlds, Nationals, but to hear of a qualifier and the relaxed atmosphere tends to have been lessened. This is a shame. This one trait perhaps is what most drew me into the game, and in practice I see less and less of this.

And that is about it for me.

What grinds your gears? how is my perspective skewed or just plain wrong? I want to hear your thoughts.

Regarding #3, I agree with that assessment 100%. I tend to focus on the upcoming wave -- in this case, Wave 7; and stick to that. I just wish people would stop speculating on Wave 8. It will come, in one form or another. The Wave 8 "bomb" most likely will be dropped at Gen Con during FFG's "In-Flight Report". People, patience is a virtue.

As far as #4, I really try to adhere to the tenants of "Fly Casual", especially when I'm sitting across from a player new to the game. When a new player comes in, I am always open to setting up a demo, and show them the ropes. I enjoy it too.

Lol - I apologize, I'm not trying to be as accusatory as it probably seems that I am. I think, perhaps the trouble is that the rules say that intentionally stalling is prohibited, but, as you say, everyone will have a different idea as to what is a reasonable amount of time to complete a move - and on top of that, we have this ambiguous layer of 'motive' - are they 'just slow' or are they 'deliberately slow' and at what point does 'just slow' cross the line to harming the intention / spirit of the rules and a timed game?

That kind of ambiguity leads to arguments like this

I'm lucky, I've never come across anyone taking a long time to do anything. If anything, I sometimes feel pressured to play more quickly than I'd like to. Not because of the opponents attitude, but just because they're finished and I don't want to seem like I'm holding the game up. Thing is, I don't think I should feel like that, and I don't want other people to, which is why I started this argument.

if you come to the competitive table with preconceptions about how somebody should behave and then griping about it

This goes both ways though. If you have expectations that a player should be super competitive, and they are used to more relaxation in their games, then your preconceptions are not being met.

You're going to be unhappy because you're not getting the pure competition you desire, and your opponent isn't happy because he's getting thrashed when he's used to a bit of leeway.

Both players need to compromise, or they're both going to have a negative experience.

There is also the important part of what you should expect from the tournament itself and the crowd there.

If I were to move in a store holding a tournament and everybody would have a very casual/easy going attitude, that nobody would take it seriously and clearly just want to have some fun, I would adapt my game to them and give a lot more leeway to my opponents. I have no doubt that I would have a lot of fun, like I already have in all my friendly games. Just the other day, the owner of a store told me that he was starting a league in his store. I'm not sure how many time he told me that they were a very caual group that like to try things out, that they don't netdeck. If it was close enough, I would love to go play there sometimes, and if I did, you can be sure that I would not bring my competitive side, because I know it would not be welcomed.

But if I'm going to an official tournament that I know a lot of people take seriously, like a Regional, I will up my game to those competitive standards. Of course, there will always be that jack*** that takes it way too seriously, but I expect it. Whatever the kind of game you like to play, the more serious the tournament is, the more serious the opposition will be. As a easy going player, you can't go in those tournaments and expect everybody to give you leeway. This is the ''big league'' (whatever that is) for those more serious players, you should also be respectful of what they want from their game. There is so few of those, let them have their fun too.

If you're going into a new crowd tournament, there is nothing wrong with asking the TO what is the competitive level to expect. If it's to your liking, sign up. But if it is not, don't come in, force your kind of fun to the other players and then claim the highest moral ground because they didn't play to your liking.

I guess I must be blessed that so much of the gear-grinding behavior that people seem to be talking about here is not something I've directly experienced.

The worst I've had is people who complain about their dice and younger players who don't seem to have much enthusiasm for the game (because they were dragged along by their dad). And even those are not so bad that I can't shrug and turn a blind eye.

So, how much of all this is real-world experience, vs. internet hearsay?

He did answer just not the way you want, your being very unreasonable.

I ask a simple yes/no question and I'm being unreasonable for expecting an answer rather then an evasion... Ok sure.

Agreed with Vanor over the analysis of Neutral Players, Fly Casual Players, and "Nerf Herder" players.

Personally when I play, I avoid making mistakes (as do we all), I am aware that a mistake will cost me, even though mistakes do happen. If my opponent asks me if they may take back or do something. Usually I will allow it...the first and MAYBE the second time, taking the situation of both into account. The third time I will often politely ask if they are new to the game? If they say yes, I will explain how its important to consider future actions and maneuverers yada, yada. If they say "no" then I will politely refuse their request on the grounds that the rules must be adhered to.

Leeway is given without enough for someone to take an advantage.

Likewise if I were to make a mistake (I'm sure it has happened or will happen a few times once in a blue moon) I will either accept it and move on, or if I think it's worth it and justified, I will ask. There is no harm in asking, if they refuse, discussion closed and there are no hard feelings. However likewise they will also receive the same level of treatment.

Conduct at the table is important, I remain polite and courteous but don't push conversation too much unless the other person seems like they wouldn't mind chatting, its at that point I open up more, however I try to keep the focus on the game and the discussion about the game or themselves.

As for stalling, on game nights, I am SLOOOOOW and that's because I'm enjoying myself and relaxing with a quiet game of X-Wing (and I have just come from work...so yeah). However at Tournaments, I make a point of speeding up the process, planning my dials as my opponent moves. Usually by the start of the next round, a majority (if not all) of my dials are down, and if they are not, they are soon placed down. I give one more check of them all then indicate to my opponent that I am ready to begin activation. I get kinda worried about the time I take to play because I am aware that in friendly game nights I am a slow player. However, no one has yet made any complaints about my playstyle so I must be doing alright in some way.

Stalling is just what it is, stalling and generally it requires a TO to make a judgement call. I think the extreme examples are definitely out there and won't happen...but there is a possibility (albeit a long one). There is going to be no clearly defined period of time in which someone should play, and there shouldn't be one that is enforced, it all comes down to many factors involved. I would really hate it if a clock was introduced because the pressure would be more apparent.

One thing we can all agree on, is that we disagree, on a few different points, how X-Wing is played and we agree that our playstyles, while similar are also very different.

don't come in, force your kind of fun to the other players and then claim the highest moral ground because they didn't play to your liking.

I think this sums it up right here.

He did answer just not the way you want, your being very unreasonable.

I ask a simple yes/no question and I'm being unreasonable for expecting an answer rather then an evasion... Ok sure.

It's the kind of gotcha question O'Reilly would use, he gave an answer your entitled to not like that answer but claiming he didn't is asinine.

Likewise if I were to make a mistake (I'm sure it has happened or will happen a few times once in a blue moon) I will either accept it and move on, or if I think it's worth it and justified, I will ask. There is no harm in asking, if they refuse, discussion closed and there are no hard feelings. However likewise they will also receive the same level of treatment.

Well after reading this thread I declare that the over competitive mindset has fully invaded yet another game!

Here's some food for thought. I hope people posting realize that 99% of the players of this game do not play tournaments or have any desire to. That means they don't play every game as if it's practice for the next tournament.

I hope you realize that many people just don't have the time or inclination to be walking talking experts on the game and get so few chances to play they don't care if they and their opponents have to fudge the rules so everyone PLAYING can enjoy the game not just those who are trying to be king geek or demand the most competitive game possible.You just aren't going to turn the average casual player into a competitive one, so it calls on the competitive people to be able to turn off the competitiveness when playing the casual or face consequences.

And I really hope you realize that the attitude you project while discussing and playing the game may just cut you off from possible opponents later. So many here I wouldn't even acknowledge.

I am a casual player, I do not do tournaments. I just won't play people who I see as ruining the enjoyment of the game for my style of play and I'm not alone, we are legion. We'd rather just not play than hate every minute. The funny part is people that seem to be hurt by the idea that someone may just not want to play them because it won't be enjoyable, and those people are always the over competitive ones.

And to head off all the rage, if you think telling me you wouldn't play me either is something meaningful it isn't since I can guarantee the feeling is mutual.

Yet, that isn't the reality of the competitive scene. It is competitive yes. But it is also extremely friendly. You also need to understand that we are talking about the extremes, here.

Well after reading this thread I declare that the over competitive mindset has fully invaded yet another game!

Really? That's the impression you came away with? I must need glasses...

Yet, that isn't the reality of the competitive scene. It is competitive yes. But it is also extremely friendly. You also need to understand that we are talking about the extremes, here.

I agree with this in my experiences in WHFB. Tournament scene is competitive, but it is friendly. HOWEVER, there is a different type of friendliness and it isn't for everyone.

The "consequences" part really got me laughing. Almost as much as "we are legion".

Here is the reality, different players want different things from this game. Hell the same player will want different things from this game at any one time. Why is that such an issue?

A casual player that doesn't want to play the game in a competitive manner should not attend tournaments. A competitive player that gets no joy out of a game with no real contest behind it should not be playing a player that just wants to push ships around as they see fit, rules abided or not.

It's really that simple. If you and another player don't want the same type of game, then just don't play each other. Don't attend an event that is not going to provide the type of game you want. Doing so and then complaining about it is just silly.

I like playing games for the contest of them. I do not like to play games where the rules are half made up or where my opponent is just playing "for fun". That isn't fun for me in this game. Therefore I just don't play those types of games.

It really isn't difficult.

Well after reading this thread I declare that the over competitive mindset has fully invaded yet another game!

Here's some food for thought. I hope people posting realize that 99% of the players of this game do not play tournaments or have any desire to. That means they don't play every game as if it's practice for the next tournament.

I hope you realize that many people just don't have the time or inclination to be walking talking experts on the game and get so few chances to play they don't care if they and their opponents have to fudge the rules so everyone PLAYING can enjoy the game not just those who are trying to be king geek or demand the most competitive game possible.You just aren't going to turn the average casual player into a competitive one, so it calls on the competitive people to be able to turn off the competitiveness when playing the casual or face consequences.

And I really hope you realize that the attitude you project while discussing and playing the game may just cut you off from possible opponents later. So many here I wouldn't even acknowledge.

I am a casual player, I do not do tournaments. I just won't play people who I see as ruining the enjoyment of the game for my style of play and I'm not alone, we are legion. We'd rather just not play than hate every minute. The funny part is people that seem to be hurt by the idea that someone may just not want to play them because it won't be enjoyable, and those people are always the over competitive ones.

And to head off all the rage, if you think telling me you wouldn't play me either is something meaningful it isn't since I can guarantee the feeling is mutual.

There is a very important point here to take into consideration, and it's not to invalidate your opinion, on the contrary. You have a valid point. But you do not do tournaments. All this discussion about being too strict or not, wanting a competitive game or not, is in a tournament environment. I don't think that anybody (from those with the competitive mindset) here will play the same in a friendly game at home or at the local store. Because it's not a tournament.

This game lends itself perfectly to two style of play: Friendly/casual and competitive.

If you like both aspect like I do, I think that you will be fine, you will find enjoyment in each and every game you play.

If you only like competitive games, I don't think you should enter a friendly/casual game/league unless you all share the same interest. Your competitive attitude will be disrespectful to the players who's only there just to move some ship and relax.

If you only like casual/friendly games, I don't think you should enter an official tournament, or at least should expect to meet competitive players there. At its core, tournaments are meant for this kind of players, players that like to test their skills against others. Tournaments is the only place where they can really do it, why take their fun away? Entering a tournament and then expecting people to allow you to take your move or action back will be disrespectful for the players that take this game seriously.

We all play this game for different reasons, and I don't think that one is better than the other. As long as you both know what to expect, I think you should be respectful of your opponent.

@AtomicFryingPan I have never been in the situation of being the person doing the asking...but I have been asked before so I know the situation and I explained the situation to them. If I were to ever ask, I would make sure to be as respectful as I can and usually it would only be during the same phase. Say I choose focus but then almost immediately reconsider, I will ask if I may reconsider my action. Never would do that if I did a barrel roll or boost though since that alters your positioning. If we had moved on then by that point it becomes difficult.

Edit: Btw, love the name!

As for what striker says. While I SOMEWHAT agree with your opinion. I think you are being too condemning. The discussion has turned to competitive rulings and how people believe others should act in that scenario. I think in a friendly game most people would be very laid back and fly casual about the whole thing. There are a few who play to the ethos "Every match is compeditiiiive" but they are in the minority, and their enjoyment in the game is just as valid, although I would advise going up against them if you are more laid back in your approach.