Hi All,

Recently I have been working on a small project (see here ) codifying the rules foir Capital Ship Combat. These rules are based off what was discussed on the Order 66 Podcast in Episodes 48 and 49 .

I reached a bit of an impasse when it comes to the rules for Barrage Attack Actions.

I'll just work through the figures here, and I'd love to hear your comments and suggestions. In order to do this, I'll be using the stats of the Dreadnaught-Class Heavy Cruiser.

Five forward and five aft medium turbolaser batteries (Fire Arc Forward, Port, and Starboard or Aft; Damage 10; Critical 3; Range [Long]; Breach 3, Linked 1, Slow-Firing 2).

Ten port and ten starboard light quad turbolasers (Fire Arc Port or Starboard; Damage 9; Critical 3; Range [Medium]; Breach 2, Linked 3, Slow-Firing 2).

Five port and five starboard heavy laser cannons (Fire Arc Port or Starboard; Damage 6; Critical 3; Range [short)).

Now using the first entry - the medium turbolaser batteries - lets run the numbers. Firstly, I think this should read: Fire Arc Forward or Aft, Port and Starboard. This means that the forward weapons fire forward, port and starboard, while the Aft fire aft, port and starboard.

Now these questions are based on a couple of things:

#1: Weapons don't fire individually. They fire in banks of weapons else we would be here all day firing weapons (and that's boring).

#2: Minions man the guns of capital ships allowing a group of 5 weapons where the Minions have 3 Agility to fire with A PPP .

#3: Weapons in the same entry are deemed to be a Weapon Group.

#4: Weapons within a Weapon Group act in things called Weapon Banks (i.e. First Entry - Medium Turbolaser Batteries are a Weapon Group, whereas the two sets of 5 Medium Turbolaser Batteries are called Weapon Banks.

The first question I have is this: Can the weapons fire in a Barrage Attack separately or must they perform the action together?

Lets assume that they can perform a Barrage Attack as separate Weapon Banks as well as together (players choice), and in our example, we'll assume that the roll made by the attacker is one single [ Success ] and one single [ Advantage ] (allowing for a successful hit and an activation of the Barrage Action).

TARGET: Forward or Aft (one battery can fire)

DAMAGE: 9 (Base Damage) + 1 (Success) + 5 (Weapons in Group) = 15

TARGET: Port/Starboard (both sets of batteries fire in a barrage)

DAMAGE: 9 (Base Damage) + 1 (Success) + 10 (Weapons in Group) = 20

TARGET: Port/Starboard (both sets of batteries fire separately)

DAMAGE #1: 9 (Base Damage) + 1 (Success) + 5 (Weapons in Group) +

DAMAGE #2: 9 (Base Damage) + 1 (Success) + 5 (Weapons in Group) = 30

There is some major differences in damage here, and I'm wondering why people would ever want to use Barrage given the current rules. Of course, it may be a case that if you can't fire ALL of them, you can't use the barrage rules. Thoughts?

And sorry if this has been discussed before.

Maybe I`m not 100% clear on this. But then couldn`t you follow your logic and have each weapon fire for 110 (Maximum) damage if you just had every weapon fire individually? Even if only half them hit you would dead 55 damage (though armor soak would reduce this greatly).

I know that armor soak would apply twice as well, though I don`t think that would make the barrage option much better unless you had 5 or greater armor.

From my under-educated perspective though it does seem like firing the two groups separately would be the better option. Unless of course the weapons are supposed to be one battery F/S/P and the other only Aft. But I`m sure there is similar issues with other ships.

Another question I had, how does link work in this situation? Would it just add another base damage? Or would it add base damage plus +5 (separate) +10 (barrage)

I'm not sure I totally get your question, but I think...

Barrage is supposed to be an alternative option to minion grouping weapons. So you could do something like take a ship's weapons, and break it up into minion groups of X, and have those weapons fire as if they were a single character making a single attack with increased skill... or you can have them all operated "independently" and fire them using the barrage rules, which will generate additional effects or results and is rolled against a fairly low difficulty.

Combining the two (breaking up the weapons into minion groups and having those groups fire as a barrage) seems to be a headache and questionable under the rules since you end up with the issue of minion groups acting as a single character while also acting as individuals.

Also though is the question of what a gunnery minion is? Assuming every barrel = 1 minion is one way. But watching the films you see a single gun with 2 or 3 guys climbing around on it. So it's not absurd to say that each individual gun on a star destroyer is manned by a minion group of say 3, which using the Gunner stat block would leave individual guns at YY . This might actually be the solution as that will give you some good skill codes for using those barrage actions, eliminate the confusion of how the guns group, and make individual checks for guns viable when needed, but painfully silly when a barrage action would be more appropriate.

I am going by what was suggested in the Order 66 Podcast which to me works very, very well, and makes it far easier to use in game. As mentioned, you could fire all guns (probably have an average chance to hit) and do that large amount of damage, mentioned above, which would end combat in less than a turn every time.

The way I think it should be done is this (direct from my rules for Capital Ship Combat):

In order to simplify this, weapons are displayed in groups of the same type, even if they have different fire-arcs. These weapons are considered to be in the same Weapon Group. The Weapon Groups are used to determine how many weapons are fired together in the same initiative position. Each Weapon Group is then broken down into Weapon Banks which number between 3 and 6 weapons per Weapon Bank. Weapons Banks should be broken down into as large a size between 3 and 6 as possible and should be divided evenly.

EXAMPLE:

A Nebulon-B Frigate has 6 x port and 6 x starboard retractable turret mounted medium turbolasers; 3 x starboard, 3 x port, 3 x forward, and 3 x aft retractable turret-mounted light laser cannons; and 3 x for-ward-mounted heavy tractor beam emitters. There are therefore 3 x Weapon Groups namely (1) medium turbolasers, (2) light laser cannons, and (3) tractor beam emitters. All of the weapons are in groups of between 3 and 6, so each of those Weapon Banks act independently.

I agree that there are several Minions working on a single gun, however that's why I introduced the rules for Minion Crews which embraces the Rule of Thumb in all of the FFG lines - Keep it Simple. Basically, you just use the crew as one "entity", and then count the number of guns in a Weapon Bank to work out the number of "Minions" when calculating the dice pool.

The question I have has more to do with the application of the Barrage attack options when using multiple banks. I'm beginning to think that Barrage attack options are an "all or nothing" affair.

Honestly I'd ditch barrage, If you're going with weapon banks, you can fire multiple banks by just rolling 1 attack and multiplying the hits by the # of banks (I did that in my attempted rework , as well as reducing the crit cost by 1 per bank). Otherwise Barrage is just really messy and as you've seen varies wildly in effectiveness in a non-intuitive way. It seems like a cludge FFG wrote to make high weapon count ships usable, rather than a rule with a clear intent.

The question I have has more to do with the application of the Barrage attack options when using multiple banks. I'm beginning to think that Barrage attack options are an "all or nothing" affair.

I kinda get that too (FYI my MP3 Player has been broken so I'll just start listening to the O66 cast about it today).

If you divide them up by Minion Banks and use 1gun:1minion, you get a higher skill roll, and since many capship weapons are slow firing, you can group them to allow you to fire the weapons every turn. But using Barrage becomes awkward (does each bank's gun count as a weapon? Or each bank? What happens when Bank 1 fires normally this turn and Bank 2 decides to barrage next turn, since barrages require all weapons of a single type to fire? Can three Banks all fire in the same turn with a different barrage effect?)

If you don't divide them up by 1gun:1minion, then you end up with a skill of only GG . This makes some sense with some Barrages. The low difficulty of Blanket Barrage certainly makes sense, though even with Aiming BB will still only result in success about 30-40%* of the time. Likewise shooting conventionally at anything below the capships weight class becomes less a matter of Gunnery and more a matter of learning to interpret a roll with no Success and 8 Threat.

Dividing them up by each gun crew (2-4 guys per gun) allows the Barrages to become far more valid. Something like BB will now work about 50-60% or better most of the time, and occasionally generate enough Advantage to kick in an additional effect. Still targeting below the capships Sil is gonna get worse all the time, as when you are Sil 8 and try and shoot at a Sil 4 or smaller target you're far more likely to see 5 threat than 1 success...

So that's why I'm thinking it's supposed to work like this:

Minion gun crew get grouped by crew, with the intent that you're not going to have all the weapons take up a slot and roll individually. If you (the GM) need a simple shot, you pick a gun and take it. If you need boosts, you can can use Aiming tricks, and assists from other gun crews to give you up to +3 boost offhand, maybe more. Since even that only accounts for 2 weapons per turn, you'll still usually have plenty left over allowing for a shot every turn. It also allows more PC oriented checks to function. Fire Discipline would work here, and putting PC in the gunnery position will still be typically better then the Minions as the skills will be equal or higher, but also the PC has all those sexy talents.

Barrages now work as you've got the skill of a single crew to roll for them as written, though doing so eats up an entire weapons type. When talking large capships though this isn't so bad as you'll usually have enough weapon types to still fire every turn most of the time, alternating so you don't have to roll 3 times a turn unless there was some encounter purpose you had going on. Smaller craft without the weapon count will have to be careful though to avoid having to skip a turn.

Finally.... the Film reference.... seems to work in this case. In small engagements (pursuit of the Tantive IV, Hunt for the Falcon) we really don't see a lot of weapons fire.Supporting the single minion crew with a second assisting.

Going bigger.... The Battle of Endor didn't show much barrage action, with capital ships taking pot shots mostly. Accounting for technological FX limitations, even looking at the more recent CG heavy Battle of Coruscant tends to alternate. We either see limited careful fire from a few guns at a time... or Barrages with every gun blazing... But the thing we don't see... capital ships getting destroyed. We see some, we do, but we don't see more then one or two, the rest are just back there taking it. But more often we see a pair of ships sitting across from each other blasting away with little externally visible effect. Which matches my results fairly well, as even a skilled Barrage will rarely result in more then a couple Success and Advantage....

*Using the totally scientific and accurate method of rolling ten or so times over and over and counting the successful rolls each time.

....wow.. that came out longer then I intended...

TARGET: Forward or Aft (one battery can fire)

DAMAGE: 9 (Base Damage) + 1 (Success) + 5 (Weapons in Group) = 15

TARGET: Port/Starboard (both sets of batteries fire in a barrage)

DAMAGE: 9 (Base Damage) + 1 (Success) + 10 (Weapons in Group) = 20

TARGET: Port/Starboard (both sets of batteries fire separately)

DAMAGE #1: 9 (Base Damage) + 1 (Success) + 5 (Weapons in Group) +

DAMAGE #2: 9 (Base Damage) + 1 (Success) + 5 (Weapons in Group) = 30

i believe the 1st and 2nd examples are correct, while the third is incorrect. this is due to the wording of concentrated barrage:

the character fires all weapons of a single type... within a single firing arc.

O66 used this in there PvP demo

During that encounter Chris unloaded with concentrated garage on the first round, Phil used a minion groups worth of guns 1 round, then concentrated garage the second round.

When thinking about the Minion grouping of the guns of a ship think about the chain of command:

1. Anywhere from 1, 3, 5 or even 20 individuals may be required to operate a single gun mounted on a ship, we can ignore these people
2. These individuals will have a single officer in charge of that gun... this officer is the Minion, he gets the orders to fire, and what to fire at. so each gun is a minion
3. Group multiple Minions, in the same firing arc, together as a Minion Group, they will be under a single officer who receives orders from the bridge and issues them to the gun commanders

Keeping the minion groups to 3-5 Guns keeps the skill checks in a manageable range, and a PC with Gunnery will outshine them, thus enticing the PC's to actually take those guns for themselves, rather than just letting the minions do the work.

so on the Ship used as an example in the OP:

Five forward and five aft medium turbolaser batteries (Fire Arc Forward, Port, and Starboard or Aft; Damage 10; Critical 3; Range [Long]; Breach 3, Linked 1, Slow-Firing 2).

Becomes 2 Minion groups of 5 MTB's, 1 F/P/S the other A/P/S

Ten port and ten starboard light quad turbolasers (Fire Arc Port or Starboard; Damage 9; Critical 3; Range [Medium]; Breach 2, Linked 3, Slow-Firing 2).

Becomes 4 Minion Groups of 5 LQT's, 2 Port and 2 Starboard

Five port and five starboard heavy laser cannons (Fire Arc Port or Starboard; Damage 6; Critical 3; Range [short)).

Becomes 2 Minion Groups of 5 HLC's, 1 Port and 1 Starboard

Edit:

​I wasn't finished!

So this ship has 8 Minion groups firing guns, but as the O66 suggest, that should not be 8 initiative slots, but likely just 1, or possibly 2 at a stretch (on top of their 2 recommended Captan and Pilot/Engineering Slots) plus a PC in the right position could take over any of these guns in their turn and use their own skill check to hit, or Barrage...

Also with the barrage rules only 2 minion groups maximum will be affected by any single barrage action, so if a PC performs a Concentrated Barrage using the MTB's on the port arc (both minion groups) then they would be adding +10 for the damage to the attack with 1 advantage (then wait 2 rounds before firing again), meanwhile the captain could order the HLC's to take the Blanket Barage action on port and starboard arcs. This would leave the Light Quad Turbo Lasers free for another PC, possibly to fire a shot 2 out of every three rounds at specific ships.

TARGET: Forward or Aft (one battery can fire)

DAMAGE: 9 (Base Damage) + 1 (Success) + 5 (Weapons in Group) = 15

TARGET: Port/Starboard (both sets of batteries fire in a barrage)

DAMAGE: 9 (Base Damage) + 1 (Success) + 10 (Weapons in Group) = 20

TARGET: Port/Starboard (both sets of batteries fire separately)

DAMAGE #1: 9 (Base Damage) + 1 (Success) + 5 (Weapons in Group) +

DAMAGE #2: 9 (Base Damage) + 1 (Success) + 5 (Weapons in Group) = 30

i believe the 1st and 2nd examples are correct, while the third is incorrect. this is due to the wording of concentrated barrage:

the character fires all weapons of a single type... within a single firing arc.

The problem is - they are firing in the same arc. A weapon's Firing Arc is different to its Location.

In my example, the weapon, lets break it down:

Five forward and five aft medium turbolaser batteries

This is the location. Five at the front of the ship, and fire at the rear.

Fire Arc Forward, Port, and Starboard or Aft

The front weapons can fire forward, port and starboard, while the rear weapons can fire aft, port and starboard.

But now I see your point. I did get entry 3 wrong:

In this corrected case, you do the same amount of damage from the barrage attack as you do normally.

TARGET: Port/Starboard (both sets of Weapon Banks fire in a barrage)

DAMAGE: 9 (Base Damage) + 1 (Success) + 10 (Weapons in Group) = 20

TARGET: Port/Starboard (both sets of batteries fire separately)

DAMAGE #1: 9 (Base Damage) + 1 (Success)+

DAMAGE #2: 9 (Base Damage) + 1 (Success) = 20

So the questions I have are:

1) Why have a Barrage attack at all?

2) Is the barrage attack an all or nothing type action that can only be performed if ALL of the weapons in a given firing arc attack?

I think I have just confused myself...

But now I see your point. I did get entry 3 wrong:

In this corrected case, you do the same amount of damage from the barrage attack as you do normally.

TARGET: Port/Starboard (both sets of Weapon Banks fire in a barrage)

DAMAGE: 9 (Base Damage) + 1 (Success) + 10 (Weapons in Group) = 20

TARGET: Port/Starboard (both sets of batteries fire separately)

DAMAGE #1: 9 (Base Damage) + 1 (Success)+

DAMAGE #2: 9 (Base Damage) + 1 (Success) = 20

So the questions I have are:

1) Why have a Barrage attack at all?

2) Is the barrage attack an all or nothing type action that can only be performed if ALL of the weapons in a given firing arc attack?

1)

The way i see it in these 2 examples is that the first option using Concentrated Barrage only takes a single action, therefore a single initiative slot.

The second example has to roll twice to hit, takes 2 actions and therefore 2 of the initiative slots that are available to that particular ship for that round.

These 2 examples would also be affected differently by things like Aim, The Concentrated Barrage example could double aim 1 round then fire with 2 boost the second round, all using a single initiative slot. The second example would require 2 initiative slots for 2 rounds to achieve the same result.

Now if the GM is running the combat so that there is an initiative slot for every Gun Minion group, this is not an issue and the 2nd example is fine, but if following the O66 suggestion of only 1 or 2 Gunnery Slots for that cap ship then the Concentrated Barrage option is much mo valuable.

The other time the Concentrated Barrage is extremely useful is when a PC with high Gunnery takes controls of those guns and uses their own dice pool for the attack, it could significantly increase the damage dealt for the number of actions required.

2)

My understanding is that the weapons available to fire in a given arc is what matters, not their mounting point. this also means if a slow firing weapons system is not available due to its "Cooldown" not being reset yet then those guns are ignored for purpose of calculating damage.

ill do an example (although GMPhil did basically this in the PvP game they played on O66) :

Using the ship in the OP:

2 Minion groups of 5 MDTB's, 1 F/P/S the other A/P/S

4 Minion Groups of 5 DQT's, 2 Port and 2 Starboard

2 Minion Groups of 5 HLC's, 1 Port and 1 Starboard

Ill say there is the following initiative slots available for this Cap Ship each turn:

Pilot/Engerneering (P/E)

Gunnery Group 1 (GG1)

Gunnery Group 2 (GG2)

PC 1

PC 2

PC 3

Round 1:

GG1 Aims, then the fires the Forward Medium Dreadnaught Turbo Lasers Dice Pool of YYGGGB (potential of 10+Success Dam, breach 3, +10+Success, breach 3, if 2 advantage(Linked): 20+2xSuccess Dam (breach and armour affect this twice each)

GG2 Aims then Blanket Barrage action using the 2 banks of 5 Heavy Laser Canons (1 Port + 1 Starboard) Dice Pool of YYGGGB (Protection form incoming Fighters)

all the others do no attacking actions

Round 2:

GG1 Aims then Performs a The Overwhelming Barrage using ALL the Port side Dreadnaught Quad Turbolasers DP of YYGGGB

this attack can go multiple ways, but these are the options:

1. Original target hit (9+Success, Breach 2), plus 2 additional Ships hit per advantage spent (each receives 9+Success, Breach 2) each ship only hit once, all additional ships must be bigger than the original target (Great option if your firing at a large number of enemy craft)
2. Original target hit (9=Success, Breach 2), OT hit up to 3 more times using 2 advantage each time, remaining advantage used to hit 2 other ships per advantage (Great option if the enemy only has a couple of ships but you want to spread the damage around a little)
3. you could also spend some of the advantage on Criting the OT

Round 3:

PC 1 (who is a crack shot with Gunnery 4 and 4 Agility) decides to take a concentrating barrage action with the Dreadnought Turbo Lasers on the Starboard Arc, but due to 1 bank being fired during the first round only 1 bank is available, this is what could happen:

• The PC spends 1 advantage, target takes 10+Success+5(from 5 guns being fired), Breach 3. plus with 2 more advantage a further 10+success, breach 3 damage from the linked (total of 25 + 2xSuccess Damage, Breach 3 and armour affect this twice each again.

Lets skip to round 4:

PC 1 Could have instead decided to wait another round before making a concentrating barrage action with the Dreadnought Turbo Lasers which are all ready to fire this round.

• the PC spends 1 advantage, target takes 10+Success+10, breach 3. plus a further 10+success, Breach 3 with 2 more advantage spent. Total of 30 + 2xSuccess Damage, with breach and armour affecting it twice again.

I guess the point after this massive monologue is that Barrage actions are a great way to use a limited number of actions to perform as much damage as possible, freeing up actions to be used for other things, like double aiming. so instead of doing damage spread over multiple rounds, do it all at once. your just putting your eggs in less baskets if you do that, but giving you more freedom to do other useful things.

WOW, sorry